Taxacom: Galapagos
Michael A. Ivie
mivie at montana.edu
Wed Jul 3 11:49:21 CDT 2024
Yes, as we see, over and over and over.....
On 7/3/2024 10:42 AM, John Grehan wrote:
>
> ***External Sender***
>
> Fair enough. That is your choice. So, even if something is not right
> you keep that thought to yourself. I chose to do otherwise.
>
> On Wed, Jul 3, 2024 at 11:43 AM Michael A. Ivie <mivie at montana.edu> wrote:
>
> Well, since this a request for my personal response, I certainly
> would not be publicly and repeatedly whining about it on Taxacom.
>
> How I feel would be kept to myself, as is appropriate.
>
>
> On 7/3/2024 5:09 AM, John Grehan wrote:
>>
>> ***External Sender***
>>
>> Michael,
>>
>> Thinking about this a bit further, would you be asking those same
>> questions if people did not cite your work in taxonomy or
>> systematics (not nomenclature since that is a convention rather
>> than a science)? Say you did an extensive study, or a series of
>> extensive studies, published in 'reputable' or even 'prestigious'
>> journals or books, and then along come some molecular workers
>> (and nothing against them here - could reverse this just as well)
>> who published their studies and in no reference to your work at
>> a!!? And then to top it off you contact them to ask about why and
>> you get nothing? I would be interested to know what you would
>> think about that. Would it bother you, or would you say, 'oh well
>> they don't cite creationism, intelligent design, Wicken magic
>> etc' and so they are under no professional obligation to cite my
>> work and so all is good in the land of taxonomic and systematic
>> science? Very interested in your perspective on that admittedly
>> hypothetical situation (nearest to actuality are cases where
>> morphological studies have been rejected by journals because they
>> don't include molecules).
>>
>> Cheers, John
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 2, 2024 at 7:14 PM Ivie, Michael <mivie at montana.edu>
>> wrote:
>>
>> So you think all alternatives should be cited? Possibly also
>> discussed? So creationism, intelligent design, Wicken magic,
>> should all be cited and take up space in our paper?
>> And before you say that yours is more serious than theirs, I
>> would point out that they will dispute that with the exactly
>> the same argument. It is clear the authors are aware of the
>> paper you are pushing, but don’t consider it worthy of
>> citation. It’s not that they’re ignoring it. It’s not that
>> they’re ignorant of it. They don’t think it’s worthy.
>>
>> Your point of view seems examined, measured, and found
>> wanting. Do we have to keep hearing about it?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> __________________________________________________
>> Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
>>
>> NOTE: two addresses with different Zip Codes depending on
>> carriers
>>
>> *US Post Office Address:*
>> Montana Entomology Collection
>> Marsh Labs, Room 50
>> PO Box 173145
>> Montana State University
>> Bozeman, MT 59717
>> USA
>>
>> *UPS, FedEx, DHL Address:*
>> Montana Entomology Collection
>> Marsh Labs, Room 50
>> 1911 West Lincoln Street
>> Montana State University
>> Bozeman, MT 59718
>> USA
>>
>> (406) 994-4610 <tel:(406)%20994-4610> (voice)
>> (406) 994-6029 <tel:(406)%20994-6029> (FAX)
>> mivie at montana.edu
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 2, 2024 2:47 PM
>> *To:* Ivie, Michael <mivie at montana.edu>
>> *Cc:* taxacom at lists.ku.edu <taxacom at lists.ku.edu>
>> *Subject:* Re: Taxacom: Galapagos
>>
>> ***External Sender***
>>
>> Sorry- have raised this theme so often that I can forget that
>> it's not necessarily obvious. Just further showing the
>> problematic nature of science in the systematics-evolution
>> world where the suppression of alternatives is problematic
>> for the state of a science - whether it is a science any
>> longer or something else. The Galapagos is an excellent
>> indicator (just as there are 'indicator species' for the
>> health of biodiversity, I guess there can be 'indicator
>> localities') for the health of scientific research since it
>> is such a central focus for evolutionary theorists (Darwin
>> being there and all that). And with the Grant & Grant paper
>> one is dealing with one of the iconic taxa in evolutionary
>> theory. So it gets interesting in the way alternatives appear
>> not to exist. Some on this list may be interested, others
>> not. So this is for those interested in the philosophy and
>> history of systematics/taxonomy and evolutionary biology, and
>> apologies to others.
>>
>> Cheers, John
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 2, 2024 at 4:28 PM Michael A. Ivie via Taxacom
>> <taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
>>
>> What is your point with these emails to this list?
>>
>> On 7/2/2024 2:20 PM, John Grehan via Taxacom wrote:
>> > **External Sender**
>> >
>> > Ah! Just seen that I had already sent this out a while
>> back, but forgot
>> > that. Well, at least this is an update.
>> >
>> > On Tue, Jul 2, 2024 at 4:19 PM John Grehan
>> <calabar.john at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Below, June communication with R & P Grant re
>> Galapagos finches. No
>> >> response (not surprisingly due to previous lack of
>> response). This is a
>> >> world where alternatives do not exist.
>> >>
>> >> John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
>> >> prgrant at princeton.edu rgrant at princeton.edu
>> >>
>> >> Thu, Jun 6, 12:33 PM
>> >> to rgrant, prgrant
>> >>
>> >> Dear colleagues,
>> >>
>> >> I noticed in your ms "From Microcosm to Macrocosm:
>> Adaptive Radiation of
>> >> Darwin’s Finches" the following assertion: "At least
>> 18 species evolved
>> >> from a common ancestor (Fig. 1) in the relatively
>> short time of one to two
>> >> million years (Barker et al., 2015; Lamichhaney et
>> al., 2015):"
>> >>
>> >> While I acknowledge that this is your preferred
>> evolutionary model, as you
>> >> know, there is alternative biogeographic evidence
>> published in support of a
>> >> much older origin for these and other biota of the
>> Galapagos - as you would
>> >> know from the copy of Heads & Grehan (2021) sent to
>> you as a courtesy. But
>> >> while you may believe in a particular model, you
>> present it as a statement
>> >> of fact rather than a preference. This is misleading
>> as it gives the
>> >> impression that no scientific alternative exists.
>> Surely, in the interests
>> >> of science and open exploration, the readership needs
>> to know the context
>> >> of your belief. I would suggest as an open and honest
>> declaration, that
>> >> your statement be modified to: "At least 18 species
>> evolved from a common
>> >> ancestor (Fig. 1) that we believe occured in a
>> relatively short time of one
>> >> to two million years (Barker et al., 2015; Lamichhaney
>> et al., 2015),
>> >> although older origins have been proposed from
>> biogeographic evidence
>> >> (Heads & Grehan 2021):" Surely that is not too much to
>> ask?
>> >>
>> >> Regards,
>> >>
>> >> John Grehan
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhepialidsoftheworld.com.au%2F&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C22c14d8867324b22f82008dc9b8019bb%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638556221688770281%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=iHJkNI2DSXoltzIhdJiBCBxCqaee%2B6BIzUogbIkvB9g%3D&reserved=0
>> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhepialidsoftheworld.com.au%2F&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C22c14d8867324b22f82008dc9b8019bb%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638556221688770281%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=iHJkNI2DSXoltzIhdJiBCBxCqaee%2B6BIzUogbIkvB9g%3D&reserved=0>
>> (use the 'visit archived web site'
>> >> link, then the 'Ghost Moth Research page' link.
>> >>
>> >
>> > --
>> > https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhepialidsoftheworld.com.au%2F&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C22c14d8867324b22f82008dc9b8019bb%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638556221688770281%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=iHJkNI2DSXoltzIhdJiBCBxCqaee%2B6BIzUogbIkvB9g%3D&reserved=0
>> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhepialidsoftheworld.com.au%2F&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C22c14d8867324b22f82008dc9b8019bb%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638556221688770281%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=iHJkNI2DSXoltzIhdJiBCBxCqaee%2B6BIzUogbIkvB9g%3D&reserved=0>
>> (use the 'visit archived web site'
>> > link, then the 'Ghost Moth Research page' link.
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Taxacom Mailing List
>> >
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>> > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 37
>> years, 1987-2024.
>> >
>> >
>> --
>> __________________________________________________
>>
>> Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
>>
>> NOTE: two addresses with different Zip Codes depending on
>> carriers
>>
>> US Post Office Address:
>> Montana Entomology Collection
>> Marsh Labs, Room 50
>> PO Box 173145
>> Montana State University
>> Bozeman, MT 59717
>> USA
>>
>> UPS, FedEx, DHL Address:
>> Montana Entomology Collection
>> Marsh Labs, Room 50
>> 1911 West Lincoln Street
>> Montana State University
>> Bozeman, MT 59718
>> USA
>>
>>
>> (406) 994-4610 (voice)
>> (406) 994-6029 (FAX)
>> mivie at montana.edu
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Taxacom Mailing List
>>
>> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to:
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>> <https://lists.ku.edu/listinfo/taxacom>
>> You can reach the person managing the list at:
>> taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
>>
>> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 37
>> years, 1987-2024.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhepialidsoftheworld.com.au%2F&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C22c14d8867324b22f82008dc9b8019bb%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638556221688770281%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=iHJkNI2DSXoltzIhdJiBCBxCqaee%2B6BIzUogbIkvB9g%3D&reserved=0
>> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhepialidsoftheworld.com.au%2F&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C22c14d8867324b22f82008dc9b8019bb%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638556221688770281%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=iHJkNI2DSXoltzIhdJiBCBxCqaee%2B6BIzUogbIkvB9g%3D&reserved=0> (use
>> the 'visit archived web site' link, then the 'Ghost Moth
>> Research page' link.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhepialidsoftheworld.com.au%2F&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C22c14d8867324b22f82008dc9b8019bb%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638556221688770281%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=iHJkNI2DSXoltzIhdJiBCBxCqaee%2B6BIzUogbIkvB9g%3D&reserved=0
>> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhepialidsoftheworld.com.au%2F&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C22c14d8867324b22f82008dc9b8019bb%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638556221689085643%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=lTGKWV6jBV83kMtYT7n3QL0MHU9NsEgUdnuTZpAL8QM%3D&reserved=0> (use
>> the 'visit archived web site' link, then the 'Ghost Moth Research
>> page' link.
>
> --
> __________________________________________________
>
> Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
>
> NOTE: two addresses with different Zip Codes depending on carriers
>
> US Post Office Address:
> Montana Entomology Collection
> Marsh Labs, Room 50
> PO Box 173145
> Montana State University
> Bozeman, MT 59717
> USA
>
> UPS, FedEx, DHL Address:
> Montana Entomology Collection
> Marsh Labs, Room 50
> 1911 West Lincoln Street
> Montana State University
> Bozeman, MT 59718
> USA
>
>
> (406) 994-4610 (voice)
> (406) 994-6029 (FAX)
> mivie at montana.edu
>
>
>
> --
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhepialidsoftheworld.com.au%2F&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C22c14d8867324b22f82008dc9b8019bb%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638556221689085643%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=lTGKWV6jBV83kMtYT7n3QL0MHU9NsEgUdnuTZpAL8QM%3D&reserved=0
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhepialidsoftheworld.com.au%2F&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C22c14d8867324b22f82008dc9b8019bb%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638556221689085643%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=lTGKWV6jBV83kMtYT7n3QL0MHU9NsEgUdnuTZpAL8QM%3D&reserved=0> (use
> the 'visit archived web site' link, then the 'Ghost Moth Research
> page' link.
--
__________________________________________________
Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
NOTE: two addresses with different Zip Codes depending on carriers
US Post Office Address:
Montana Entomology Collection
Marsh Labs, Room 50
PO Box 173145
Montana State University
Bozeman, MT 59717
USA
UPS, FedEx, DHL Address:
Montana Entomology Collection
Marsh Labs, Room 50
1911 West Lincoln Street
Montana State University
Bozeman, MT 59718
USA
(406) 994-4610 (voice)
(406) 994-6029 (FAX)
mivie at montana.edu
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