Taxacom: Galapagos

Wed Jul 3 11:42:04 CDT 2024

Fair enough. That is your choice. So, even if something is not right you
keep that thought to yourself. I chose to do otherwise.

On Wed, Jul 3, 2024 at 11:43 AM Michael A. Ivie <mivie at montana.edu> wrote:

> Well, since this a request for my personal response, I certainly would not
> be publicly and repeatedly whining about it on Taxacom.
>
> How I feel would be kept to myself, as is appropriate.
>
>
> On 7/3/2024 5:09 AM, John Grehan wrote:
>
> ***External Sender***
> Michael,
>
> Thinking about this a bit further, would you be asking those same
> questions if people did not cite your work in taxonomy or systematics (not
> nomenclature since that is a convention rather than a science)? Say you did
> an extensive study, or a series of extensive studies, published in
> 'reputable' or even 'prestigious' journals or books, and then along come
> some molecular workers (and nothing against them here - could reverse this
> just as well) who published their studies and in no reference to your work
> at a!!? And then to top it off you contact them to ask about why and you
> get nothing? I would be interested to know what you would think about that.
> Would it bother you, or would you say, 'oh well they don't cite
> creationism, intelligent design, Wicken magic etc' and so they are under
> no professional obligation to cite my work and so all is good in the land
> of taxonomic and systematic science? Very interested in your perspective on
> that admittedly hypothetical situation (nearest to actuality are cases
> where morphological studies have been rejected by journals because they
> don't include molecules).
>
> Cheers, John
>
> On Tue, Jul 2, 2024 at 7:14 PM Ivie, Michael <mivie at montana.edu> wrote:
>
>> So you think all alternatives should be cited? Possibly also discussed?
>> So creationism, intelligent design, Wicken magic, should all be cited and
>> take up space in our paper?
>> And before you say that yours is more serious than theirs, I would point
>> out that they will dispute that with the exactly the same argument. It is
>> clear the authors are aware of the paper you are pushing, but don’t
>> consider it worthy of citation. It’s not that they’re ignoring it. It’s not
>> that they’re ignorant of it. They don’t think it’s worthy.
>>
>> Your point of view seems examined, measured, and found wanting. Do we
>> have to keep hearing about it?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> __________________________________________________
>> Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
>>
>> NOTE: two addresses with different Zip Codes depending on carriers
>>
>> *US Post Office Address:*
>> Montana Entomology Collection
>> Marsh Labs, Room 50
>> PO Box 173145
>> Montana State University
>> Bozeman, MT 59717
>> USA
>>
>> *UPS, FedEx, DHL Address:*
>> Montana Entomology Collection
>> Marsh Labs, Room 50
>> 1911 West Lincoln Street
>> Montana State University
>> Bozeman, MT 59718
>> USA
>>
>> (406) 994-4610 (voice)
>> (406) 994-6029 (FAX)
>> mivie at montana.edu
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 2, 2024 2:47 PM
>> *To:* Ivie, Michael <mivie at montana.edu>
>> *Cc:* taxacom at lists.ku.edu <taxacom at lists.ku.edu>
>> *Subject:* Re: Taxacom: Galapagos
>>
>>
>> ***External Sender***
>> Sorry- have raised this theme so often that I can forget that it's not
>> necessarily obvious. Just further showing the problematic nature of science
>> in the systematics-evolution world where the suppression of alternatives is
>> problematic for the state of a science - whether it is a science any longer
>> or something else. The Galapagos is an excellent indicator (just as there
>> are 'indicator species' for the health of biodiversity, I guess there can
>> be 'indicator localities') for the health of scientific research since it
>> is such a central focus for evolutionary theorists (Darwin being there and
>> all that). And with the Grant & Grant paper one is dealing with one of the
>> iconic taxa in evolutionary theory. So it gets interesting in the way
>> alternatives appear not to exist. Some on this list may be interested,
>> others not. So this is for those interested in the philosophy and history
>> of systematics/taxonomy and evolutionary biology, and apologies to others.
>>
>> Cheers, John
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 2, 2024 at 4:28 PM Michael A. Ivie via Taxacom <
>> taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
>>
>> What is your point with these emails to this list?
>>
>> On 7/2/2024 2:20 PM, John Grehan via Taxacom wrote:
>> > **External Sender**
>> >
>> > Ah! Just seen that I had already sent this out a while back, but forgot
>> > that. Well, at least this is an update.
>> >
>> > On Tue, Jul 2, 2024 at 4:19 PM John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Below, June communication with R & P Grant re Galapagos finches. No
>> >> response (not surprisingly due to previous lack of response). This is a
>> >> world where alternatives do not exist.
>> >>
>> >> John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
>> >> prgrant at princeton.edu rgrant at princeton.edu
>> >>
>> >> Thu, Jun 6, 12:33 PM
>> >> to rgrant, prgrant
>> >>
>> >> Dear colleagues,
>> >>
>> >> I noticed in your ms "From Microcosm to Macrocosm: Adaptive Radiation
>> of
>> >> Darwin’s Finches"  the following assertion: "At least 18 species
>> evolved
>> >> from a common ancestor (Fig. 1) in the relatively short time of one to
>> two
>> >> million years (Barker et al., 2015; Lamichhaney et al., 2015):"
>> >>
>> >> While I acknowledge that this is your preferred evolutionary model, as
>> you
>> >> know, there is alternative biogeographic evidence published in support
>> of a
>> >> much older origin for these and other biota of the Galapagos - as you
>> would
>> >> know from the copy of Heads & Grehan (2021) sent to you as a courtesy.
>> But
>> >> while you may believe in a particular model, you present it as a
>> statement
>> >> of fact rather than a preference. This is misleading as it gives the
>> >> impression that no scientific alternative exists. Surely, in the
>> interests
>> >> of science and open exploration, the readership needs to know the
>> context
>> >> of your belief. I would suggest as an open and honest declaration, that
>> >> your statement be modified to:  "At least 18 species evolved from a
>> common
>> >> ancestor (Fig. 1) that we believe occured in a relatively short time
>> of one
>> >> to two million years (Barker et al., 2015; Lamichhaney et al., 2015),
>> >> although older origins have been proposed from biogeographic evidence
>> >> (Heads & Grehan 2021):" Surely that is not too much to ask?
>> >>
>> >> Regards,
>> >>
>> >> John Grehan
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhepialidsoftheworld.com.au%2F&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cdb9f42b2a63d4c4880f508dc9b7f295c%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638556218613191431%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C60000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ICumUTvOc6KrHlPm%2BUWGU4TKSV7RXTQd81bkofyDhQE%3D&reserved=0 (use the 'visit archived web site'
>> >> link, then the 'Ghost Moth Research page' link.
>> >>
>> >
>> > --
>> > https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhepialidsoftheworld.com.au%2F&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cdb9f42b2a63d4c4880f508dc9b7f295c%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638556218613191431%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C60000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ICumUTvOc6KrHlPm%2BUWGU4TKSV7RXTQd81bkofyDhQE%3D&reserved=0 (use the 'visit archived web site'
>> > link, then the 'Ghost Moth Research page' link.
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Taxacom Mailing List
>> >
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>> >
>> > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 37 years,
>> 1987-2024.
>> >
>> >
>> --
>> __________________________________________________
>>
>> Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
>>
>> NOTE: two addresses with different Zip Codes depending on carriers
>>
>> US Post Office Address:
>> Montana Entomology Collection
>> Marsh Labs, Room 50
>> PO Box 173145
>> Montana State University
>> Bozeman, MT 59717
>> USA
>>
>> UPS, FedEx, DHL Address:
>> Montana Entomology Collection
>> Marsh Labs, Room 50
>> 1911 West Lincoln Street
>> Montana State University
>> Bozeman, MT 59718
>> USA
>>
>>
>> (406) 994-4610 (voice)
>> (406) 994-6029 (FAX)
>> mivie at montana.edu
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Taxacom Mailing List
>>
>> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
>> For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
>> https://lists.ku.edu/listinfo/taxacom
>> You can reach the person managing the list at: taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
>>
>> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 37 years, 1987-2024.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhepialidsoftheworld.com.au%2F&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cdb9f42b2a63d4c4880f508dc9b7f295c%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638556218613191431%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C60000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ICumUTvOc6KrHlPm%2BUWGU4TKSV7RXTQd81bkofyDhQE%3D&reserved=0 (use the 'visit archived web site'
>> link, then the 'Ghost Moth Research page' link.
>>
>
>
> --
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhepialidsoftheworld.com.au%2F&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cdb9f42b2a63d4c4880f508dc9b7f295c%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638556218613191431%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C60000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ICumUTvOc6KrHlPm%2BUWGU4TKSV7RXTQd81bkofyDhQE%3D&reserved=0 (use the 'visit archived web site'
> link, then the 'Ghost Moth Research page' link.
>
> --
> __________________________________________________
>
> Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
>
> NOTE: two addresses with different Zip Codes depending on carriers
>
> US Post Office Address:
> Montana Entomology Collection
> Marsh Labs, Room 50
> PO Box 173145
> Montana State University
> Bozeman, MT 59717
> USA
>
> UPS, FedEx, DHL Address:
> Montana Entomology Collection
> Marsh Labs, Room 50
> 1911 West Lincoln Street
> Montana State University
> Bozeman, MT 59718
> USA
>
>
> (406) 994-4610 (voice)
> (406) 994-6029 (FAX)mivie at montana.edu
>
>

-- 
https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhepialidsoftheworld.com.au%2F&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cdb9f42b2a63d4c4880f508dc9b7f295c%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638556218613191431%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C60000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ICumUTvOc6KrHlPm%2BUWGU4TKSV7RXTQd81bkofyDhQE%3D&reserved=0 (use the 'visit archived web site'
link, then the 'Ghost Moth Research page' link.