Taxacom: Galapagos
Michael A. Ivie
mivie at montana.edu
Wed Jul 3 10:43:24 CDT 2024
Well, since this a request for my personal response, I certainly would
not be publicly and repeatedly whining about it on Taxacom.
How I feel would be kept to myself, as is appropriate.
On 7/3/2024 5:09 AM, John Grehan wrote:
>
> ***External Sender***
>
> Michael,
>
> Thinking about this a bit further, would you be asking those same
> questions if people did not cite your work in taxonomy or systematics
> (not nomenclature since that is a convention rather than a science)?
> Say you did an extensive study, or a series of extensive studies,
> published in 'reputable' or even 'prestigious' journals or books, and
> then along come some molecular workers (and nothing against them here
> - could reverse this just as well) who published their studies and in
> no reference to your work at a!!? And then to top it off you contact
> them to ask about why and you get nothing? I would be interested to
> know what you would think about that. Would it bother you, or
> would you say, 'oh well they don't cite creationism, intelligent
> design, Wicken magic etc' and so they are under no professional
> obligation to cite my work and so all is good in the land of taxonomic
> and systematic science? Very interested in your perspective on that
> admittedly hypothetical situation (nearest to actuality are cases
> where morphological studies have been rejected by journals because
> they don't include molecules).
>
> Cheers, John
>
> On Tue, Jul 2, 2024 at 7:14 PM Ivie, Michael <mivie at montana.edu> wrote:
>
> So you think all alternatives should be cited? Possibly also
> discussed? So creationism, intelligent design, Wicken magic,
> should all be cited and take up space in our paper?
> And before you say that yours is more serious than theirs, I would
> point out that they will dispute that with the exactly the same
> argument. It is clear the authors are aware of the paper you are
> pushing, but don’t consider it worthy of citation. It’s not that
> they’re ignoring it. It’s not that they’re ignorant of it. They
> don’t think it’s worthy.
>
> Your point of view seems examined, measured, and found wanting. Do
> we have to keep hearing about it?
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
>
> NOTE: two addresses with different Zip Codes depending on carriers
>
> *US Post Office Address:*
> Montana Entomology Collection
> Marsh Labs, Room 50
> PO Box 173145
> Montana State University
> Bozeman, MT 59717
> USA
>
> *UPS, FedEx, DHL Address:*
> Montana Entomology Collection
> Marsh Labs, Room 50
> 1911 West Lincoln Street
> Montana State University
> Bozeman, MT 59718
> USA
>
> (406) 994-4610 <tel:(406)%20994-4610> (voice)
> (406) 994-6029 <tel:(406)%20994-6029> (FAX)
> mivie at montana.edu
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 2, 2024 2:47 PM
> *To:* Ivie, Michael <mivie at montana.edu>
> *Cc:* taxacom at lists.ku.edu <taxacom at lists.ku.edu>
> *Subject:* Re: Taxacom: Galapagos
>
> ***External Sender***
>
> Sorry- have raised this theme so often that I can forget that it's
> not necessarily obvious. Just further showing the problematic
> nature of science in the systematics-evolution world where the
> suppression of alternatives is problematic for the state of a
> science - whether it is a science any longer or something else.
> The Galapagos is an excellent indicator (just as there are
> 'indicator species' for the health of biodiversity, I guess there
> can be 'indicator localities') for the health of scientific
> research since it is such a central focus for evolutionary
> theorists (Darwin being there and all that). And with the Grant &
> Grant paper one is dealing with one of the iconic taxa in
> evolutionary theory. So it gets interesting in the way
> alternatives appear not to exist. Some on this list may be
> interested, others not. So this is for those interested in the
> philosophy and history of systematics/taxonomy and
> evolutionary biology, and apologies to others.
>
> Cheers, John
>
> On Tue, Jul 2, 2024 at 4:28 PM Michael A. Ivie via Taxacom
> <taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
>
> What is your point with these emails to this list?
>
> On 7/2/2024 2:20 PM, John Grehan via Taxacom wrote:
> > **External Sender**
> >
> > Ah! Just seen that I had already sent this out a while back,
> but forgot
> > that. Well, at least this is an update.
> >
> > On Tue, Jul 2, 2024 at 4:19 PM John Grehan
> <calabar.john at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Below, June communication with R & P Grant re Galapagos
> finches. No
> >> response (not surprisingly due to previous lack of
> response). This is a
> >> world where alternatives do not exist.
> >>
> >> John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
> >> prgrant at princeton.edu rgrant at princeton.edu
> >>
> >> Thu, Jun 6, 12:33 PM
> >> to rgrant, prgrant
> >>
> >> Dear colleagues,
> >>
> >> I noticed in your ms "From Microcosm to Macrocosm: Adaptive
> Radiation of
> >> Darwin’s Finches" the following assertion: "At least 18
> species evolved
> >> from a common ancestor (Fig. 1) in the relatively short
> time of one to two
> >> million years (Barker et al., 2015; Lamichhaney et al., 2015):"
> >>
> >> While I acknowledge that this is your preferred
> evolutionary model, as you
> >> know, there is alternative biogeographic evidence published
> in support of a
> >> much older origin for these and other biota of the
> Galapagos - as you would
> >> know from the copy of Heads & Grehan (2021) sent to you as
> a courtesy. But
> >> while you may believe in a particular model, you present it
> as a statement
> >> of fact rather than a preference. This is misleading as it
> gives the
> >> impression that no scientific alternative exists. Surely,
> in the interests
> >> of science and open exploration, the readership needs to
> know the context
> >> of your belief. I would suggest as an open and honest
> declaration, that
> >> your statement be modified to: "At least 18 species
> evolved from a common
> >> ancestor (Fig. 1) that we believe occured in a relatively
> short time of one
> >> to two million years (Barker et al., 2015; Lamichhaney et
> al., 2015),
> >> although older origins have been proposed from
> biogeographic evidence
> >> (Heads & Grehan 2021):" Surely that is not too much to ask?
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >>
> >> John Grehan
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhepialidsoftheworld.com.au%2F&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cf9cf0e5357794c2b56f108dc9b76e3d6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638556182155036761%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=07W7WzM60BD5F2rMqB5sXOVkdRv3MNs9HNYyfRdEr58%3D&reserved=0
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhepialidsoftheworld.com.au%2F&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cf9cf0e5357794c2b56f108dc9b76e3d6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638556182155036761%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=07W7WzM60BD5F2rMqB5sXOVkdRv3MNs9HNYyfRdEr58%3D&reserved=0>
> (use the 'visit archived web site'
> >> link, then the 'Ghost Moth Research page' link.
> >>
> >
> > --
> > https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhepialidsoftheworld.com.au%2F&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cf9cf0e5357794c2b56f108dc9b76e3d6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638556182155036761%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=07W7WzM60BD5F2rMqB5sXOVkdRv3MNs9HNYyfRdEr58%3D&reserved=0
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhepialidsoftheworld.com.au%2F&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cf9cf0e5357794c2b56f108dc9b76e3d6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638556182155036761%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=07W7WzM60BD5F2rMqB5sXOVkdRv3MNs9HNYyfRdEr58%3D&reserved=0>
> (use the 'visit archived web site'
> > link, then the 'Ghost Moth Research page' link.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Taxacom Mailing List
> >
> > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> > For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> https://lists.ku.edu/listinfo/taxacom
> <https://lists.ku.edu/listinfo/taxacom>
> > You can reach the person managing the list at:
> taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
> >
> > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 37
> years, 1987-2024.
> >
> >
> --
> __________________________________________________
>
> Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
>
> NOTE: two addresses with different Zip Codes depending on carriers
>
> US Post Office Address:
> Montana Entomology Collection
> Marsh Labs, Room 50
> PO Box 173145
> Montana State University
> Bozeman, MT 59717
> USA
>
> UPS, FedEx, DHL Address:
> Montana Entomology Collection
> Marsh Labs, Room 50
> 1911 West Lincoln Street
> Montana State University
> Bozeman, MT 59718
> USA
>
>
> (406) 994-4610 (voice)
> (406) 994-6029 (FAX)
> mivie at montana.edu
>
> _______________________________________________
> Taxacom Mailing List
>
> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> https://lists.ku.edu/listinfo/taxacom
> <https://lists.ku.edu/listinfo/taxacom>
> You can reach the person managing the list at:
> taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
>
> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 37 years,
> 1987-2024.
>
>
>
>
> --
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhepialidsoftheworld.com.au%2F&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cf9cf0e5357794c2b56f108dc9b76e3d6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638556182155036761%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=07W7WzM60BD5F2rMqB5sXOVkdRv3MNs9HNYyfRdEr58%3D&reserved=0
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhepialidsoftheworld.com.au%2F&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cf9cf0e5357794c2b56f108dc9b76e3d6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638556182155193100%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=sC0yxbyqtDk6aehl7Sdg6ozk%2Bhcrkc7rhkmH4IyPjKE%3D&reserved=0> (use
> the 'visit archived web site' link, then the 'Ghost Moth Research
> page' link.
>
>
>
> --
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhepialidsoftheworld.com.au%2F&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cf9cf0e5357794c2b56f108dc9b76e3d6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638556182155193100%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=sC0yxbyqtDk6aehl7Sdg6ozk%2Bhcrkc7rhkmH4IyPjKE%3D&reserved=0
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhepialidsoftheworld.com.au%2F&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cf9cf0e5357794c2b56f108dc9b76e3d6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638556182155193100%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=sC0yxbyqtDk6aehl7Sdg6ozk%2Bhcrkc7rhkmH4IyPjKE%3D&reserved=0> (use
> the 'visit archived web site' link, then the 'Ghost Moth Research
> page' link.
--
__________________________________________________
Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
NOTE: two addresses with different Zip Codes depending on carriers
US Post Office Address:
Montana Entomology Collection
Marsh Labs, Room 50
PO Box 173145
Montana State University
Bozeman, MT 59717
USA
UPS, FedEx, DHL Address:
Montana Entomology Collection
Marsh Labs, Room 50
1911 West Lincoln Street
Montana State University
Bozeman, MT 59718
USA
(406) 994-4610 (voice)
(406) 994-6029 (FAX)
mivie at montana.edu
More information about the Taxacom
mailing list