Taxacom: Galapagos

Tue Jul 2 19:07:18 CDT 2024

I'm in agreement with the principle that there is nothing to compel any
citation of any work whatsoever. Yes of course they don't think it's worthy
of being cited. But that does not preclude my bringing that decision to
general attention - in science, any decision (including mine) is open for
challenge. Within evolutionary biogeography there are basically two
research programs, one based on centers of origin and chance dispersal, the
other on comparative distribution analysis. Certainly one can choose to
ignore competing research programs in evolutionary science - after all it's
what people all too often do - and make a virtue out of it (as with
some publishing their belief in suppressing what they don't like as good
science practice). As for keep hearing about it - yes, just like any other
contentious issue (weather in biogeography, systematics, taxonomy). But no
one is compelled to read (hear) about it.

Cheers, John

On Tue, Jul 2, 2024 at 7:14 PM Ivie, Michael <mivie at montana.edu> wrote:

> So you think all alternatives should be cited? Possibly also discussed? So
> creationism, intelligent design, Wicken magic, should all be cited and take
> up space in our paper?
> And before you say that yours is more serious than theirs, I would point
> out that they will dispute that with the exactly the same argument. It is
> clear the authors are aware of the paper you are pushing, but don’t
> consider it worthy of citation. It’s not that they’re ignoring it. It’s not
> that they’re ignorant of it. They don’t think it’s worthy.
>
> Your point of view seems examined, measured, and found wanting. Do we have
> to keep hearing about it?
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
>
> NOTE: two addresses with different Zip Codes depending on carriers
>
> *US Post Office Address:*
> Montana Entomology Collection
> Marsh Labs, Room 50
> PO Box 173145
> Montana State University
> Bozeman, MT 59717
> USA
>
> *UPS, FedEx, DHL Address:*
> Montana Entomology Collection
> Marsh Labs, Room 50
> 1911 West Lincoln Street
> Montana State University
> Bozeman, MT 59718
> USA
>
> (406) 994-4610 (voice)
> (406) 994-6029 (FAX)
> mivie at montana.edu
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 2, 2024 2:47 PM
> *To:* Ivie, Michael <mivie at montana.edu>
> *Cc:* taxacom at lists.ku.edu <taxacom at lists.ku.edu>
> *Subject:* Re: Taxacom: Galapagos
>
>
> ***External Sender***
> Sorry- have raised this theme so often that I can forget that it's not
> necessarily obvious. Just further showing the problematic nature of science
> in the systematics-evolution world where the suppression of alternatives is
> problematic for the state of a science - whether it is a science any longer
> or something else. The Galapagos is an excellent indicator (just as there
> are 'indicator species' for the health of biodiversity, I guess there can
> be 'indicator localities') for the health of scientific research since it
> is such a central focus for evolutionary theorists (Darwin being there and
> all that). And with the Grant & Grant paper one is dealing with one of the
> iconic taxa in evolutionary theory. So it gets interesting in the way
> alternatives appear not to exist. Some on this list may be interested,
> others not. So this is for those interested in the philosophy and history
> of systematics/taxonomy and evolutionary biology, and apologies to others.
>
> Cheers, John
>
> On Tue, Jul 2, 2024 at 4:28 PM Michael A. Ivie via Taxacom <
> taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
>
> What is your point with these emails to this list?
>
> On 7/2/2024 2:20 PM, John Grehan via Taxacom wrote:
> > **External Sender**
> >
> > Ah! Just seen that I had already sent this out a while back, but forgot
> > that. Well, at least this is an update.
> >
> > On Tue, Jul 2, 2024 at 4:19 PM John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Below, June communication with R & P Grant re Galapagos finches. No
> >> response (not surprisingly due to previous lack of response). This is a
> >> world where alternatives do not exist.
> >>
> >> John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
> >> prgrant at princeton.edu rgrant at princeton.edu
> >>
> >> Thu, Jun 6, 12:33 PM
> >> to rgrant, prgrant
> >>
> >> Dear colleagues,
> >>
> >> I noticed in your ms "From Microcosm to Macrocosm: Adaptive Radiation of
> >> Darwin’s Finches"  the following assertion: "At least 18 species evolved
> >> from a common ancestor (Fig. 1) in the relatively short time of one to
> two
> >> million years (Barker et al., 2015; Lamichhaney et al., 2015):"
> >>
> >> While I acknowledge that this is your preferred evolutionary model, as
> you
> >> know, there is alternative biogeographic evidence published in support
> of a
> >> much older origin for these and other biota of the Galapagos - as you
> would
> >> know from the copy of Heads & Grehan (2021) sent to you as a courtesy.
> But
> >> while you may believe in a particular model, you present it as a
> statement
> >> of fact rather than a preference. This is misleading as it gives the
> >> impression that no scientific alternative exists. Surely, in the
> interests
> >> of science and open exploration, the readership needs to know the
> context
> >> of your belief. I would suggest as an open and honest declaration, that
> >> your statement be modified to:  "At least 18 species evolved from a
> common
> >> ancestor (Fig. 1) that we believe occured in a relatively short time of
> one
> >> to two million years (Barker et al., 2015; Lamichhaney et al., 2015),
> >> although older origins have been proposed from biogeographic evidence
> >> (Heads & Grehan 2021):" Surely that is not too much to ask?
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >>
> >> John Grehan
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhepialidsoftheworld.com.au%2F&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ced077f5be6be43f5d9fa08dc9af4314a%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638555621420918864%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C60000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=wnyuBq8E8BSgxyAJXvjviiaKhBdcVy589vp6fx8vsZM%3D&reserved=0 (use the 'visit archived web site'
> >> link, then the 'Ghost Moth Research page' link.
> >>
> >
> > --
> > https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhepialidsoftheworld.com.au%2F&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ced077f5be6be43f5d9fa08dc9af4314a%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638555621420918864%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C60000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=wnyuBq8E8BSgxyAJXvjviiaKhBdcVy589vp6fx8vsZM%3D&reserved=0 (use the 'visit archived web site'
> > link, then the 'Ghost Moth Research page' link.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Taxacom Mailing List
> >
> > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> > For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> https://lists.ku.edu/listinfo/taxacom
> > You can reach the person managing the list at:
> taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
> >
> > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 37 years, 1987-2024.
> >
> >
> --
> __________________________________________________
>
> Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
>
> NOTE: two addresses with different Zip Codes depending on carriers
>
> US Post Office Address:
> Montana Entomology Collection
> Marsh Labs, Room 50
> PO Box 173145
> Montana State University
> Bozeman, MT 59717
> USA
>
> UPS, FedEx, DHL Address:
> Montana Entomology Collection
> Marsh Labs, Room 50
> 1911 West Lincoln Street
> Montana State University
> Bozeman, MT 59718
> USA
>
>
> (406) 994-4610 (voice)
> (406) 994-6029 (FAX)
> mivie at montana.edu
>
> _______________________________________________
> Taxacom Mailing List
>
> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> https://lists.ku.edu/listinfo/taxacom
> You can reach the person managing the list at: taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
>
> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 37 years, 1987-2024.
>
>
>
>
> --
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhepialidsoftheworld.com.au%2F&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ced077f5be6be43f5d9fa08dc9af4314a%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638555621420918864%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C60000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=wnyuBq8E8BSgxyAJXvjviiaKhBdcVy589vp6fx8vsZM%3D&reserved=0 (use the 'visit archived web site'
> link, then the 'Ghost Moth Research page' link.
>

-- 
https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhepialidsoftheworld.com.au%2F&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ced077f5be6be43f5d9fa08dc9af4314a%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638555621420918864%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C60000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=wnyuBq8E8BSgxyAJXvjviiaKhBdcVy589vp6fx8vsZM%3D&reserved=0 (use the 'visit archived web site'
link, then the 'Ghost Moth Research page' link.