Taxacom: Galapagos

Wed Jul 3 06:09:10 CDT 2024

Michael,

Thinking about this a bit further, would you be asking those same questions
if people did not cite your work in taxonomy or systematics (not
nomenclature since that is a convention rather than a science)? Say you did
an extensive study, or a series of extensive studies, published in
'reputable' or even 'prestigious' journals or books, and then along come
some molecular workers (and nothing against them here - could reverse this
just as well) who published their studies and in no reference to your work
at a!!? And then to top it off you contact them to ask about why and you
get nothing? I would be interested to know what you would think about that.
Would it bother you, or would you say, 'oh well they don't cite
creationism, intelligent design, Wicken magic etc' and so they are under no
professional obligation to cite my work and so all is good in the land of
taxonomic and systematic science? Very interested in your perspective on
that admittedly hypothetical situation (nearest to actuality are cases
where morphological studies have been rejected by journals because they
don't include molecules).

Cheers, John

On Tue, Jul 2, 2024 at 7:14 PM Ivie, Michael <mivie at montana.edu> wrote:

> So you think all alternatives should be cited? Possibly also discussed? So
> creationism, intelligent design, Wicken magic, should all be cited and take
> up space in our paper?
> And before you say that yours is more serious than theirs, I would point
> out that they will dispute that with the exactly the same argument. It is
> clear the authors are aware of the paper you are pushing, but don’t
> consider it worthy of citation. It’s not that they’re ignoring it. It’s not
> that they’re ignorant of it. They don’t think it’s worthy.
>
> Your point of view seems examined, measured, and found wanting. Do we have
> to keep hearing about it?
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
>
> NOTE: two addresses with different Zip Codes depending on carriers
>
> *US Post Office Address:*
> Montana Entomology Collection
> Marsh Labs, Room 50
> PO Box 173145
> Montana State University
> Bozeman, MT 59717
> USA
>
> *UPS, FedEx, DHL Address:*
> Montana Entomology Collection
> Marsh Labs, Room 50
> 1911 West Lincoln Street
> Montana State University
> Bozeman, MT 59718
> USA
>
> (406) 994-4610 (voice)
> (406) 994-6029 (FAX)
> mivie at montana.edu
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 2, 2024 2:47 PM
> *To:* Ivie, Michael <mivie at montana.edu>
> *Cc:* taxacom at lists.ku.edu <taxacom at lists.ku.edu>
> *Subject:* Re: Taxacom: Galapagos
>
>
> ***External Sender***
> Sorry- have raised this theme so often that I can forget that it's not
> necessarily obvious. Just further showing the problematic nature of science
> in the systematics-evolution world where the suppression of alternatives is
> problematic for the state of a science - whether it is a science any longer
> or something else. The Galapagos is an excellent indicator (just as there
> are 'indicator species' for the health of biodiversity, I guess there can
> be 'indicator localities') for the health of scientific research since it
> is such a central focus for evolutionary theorists (Darwin being there and
> all that). And with the Grant & Grant paper one is dealing with one of the
> iconic taxa in evolutionary theory. So it gets interesting in the way
> alternatives appear not to exist. Some on this list may be interested,
> others not. So this is for those interested in the philosophy and history
> of systematics/taxonomy and evolutionary biology, and apologies to others.
>
> Cheers, John
>
> On Tue, Jul 2, 2024 at 4:28 PM Michael A. Ivie via Taxacom <
> taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
>
> What is your point with these emails to this list?
>
> On 7/2/2024 2:20 PM, John Grehan via Taxacom wrote:
> > **External Sender**
> >
> > Ah! Just seen that I had already sent this out a while back, but forgot
> > that. Well, at least this is an update.
> >
> > On Tue, Jul 2, 2024 at 4:19 PM John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Below, June communication with R & P Grant re Galapagos finches. No
> >> response (not surprisingly due to previous lack of response). This is a
> >> world where alternatives do not exist.
> >>
> >> John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
> >> prgrant at princeton.edu rgrant at princeton.edu
> >>
> >> Thu, Jun 6, 12:33 PM
> >> to rgrant, prgrant
> >>
> >> Dear colleagues,
> >>
> >> I noticed in your ms "From Microcosm to Macrocosm: Adaptive Radiation of
> >> Darwin’s Finches"  the following assertion: "At least 18 species evolved
> >> from a common ancestor (Fig. 1) in the relatively short time of one to
> two
> >> million years (Barker et al., 2015; Lamichhaney et al., 2015):"
> >>
> >> While I acknowledge that this is your preferred evolutionary model, as
> you
> >> know, there is alternative biogeographic evidence published in support
> of a
> >> much older origin for these and other biota of the Galapagos - as you
> would
> >> know from the copy of Heads & Grehan (2021) sent to you as a courtesy.
> But
> >> while you may believe in a particular model, you present it as a
> statement
> >> of fact rather than a preference. This is misleading as it gives the
> >> impression that no scientific alternative exists. Surely, in the
> interests
> >> of science and open exploration, the readership needs to know the
> context
> >> of your belief. I would suggest as an open and honest declaration, that
> >> your statement be modified to:  "At least 18 species evolved from a
> common
> >> ancestor (Fig. 1) that we believe occured in a relatively short time of
> one
> >> to two million years (Barker et al., 2015; Lamichhaney et al., 2015),
> >> although older origins have been proposed from biogeographic evidence
> >> (Heads & Grehan 2021):" Surely that is not too much to ask?
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >>
> >> John Grehan
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhepialidsoftheworld.com.au%2F&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C8700f0088cf44de6483608dc9b50a7ee%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638556018898273105%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C60000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=uMC6oyZo8rDj0EudKC7TkNk5zfDmkkeCvSuL37C9bIk%3D&reserved=0 (use the 'visit archived web site'
> >> link, then the 'Ghost Moth Research page' link.
> >>
> >
> > --
> > https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhepialidsoftheworld.com.au%2F&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C8700f0088cf44de6483608dc9b50a7ee%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638556018898273105%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C60000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=uMC6oyZo8rDj0EudKC7TkNk5zfDmkkeCvSuL37C9bIk%3D&reserved=0 (use the 'visit archived web site'
> > link, then the 'Ghost Moth Research page' link.
> > _______________________________________________
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> > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 37 years, 1987-2024.
> >
> >
> --
> __________________________________________________
>
> Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
>
> NOTE: two addresses with different Zip Codes depending on carriers
>
> US Post Office Address:
> Montana Entomology Collection
> Marsh Labs, Room 50
> PO Box 173145
> Montana State University
> Bozeman, MT 59717
> USA
>
> UPS, FedEx, DHL Address:
> Montana Entomology Collection
> Marsh Labs, Room 50
> 1911 West Lincoln Street
> Montana State University
> Bozeman, MT 59718
> USA
>
>
> (406) 994-4610 (voice)
> (406) 994-6029 (FAX)
> mivie at montana.edu
>
> _______________________________________________
> Taxacom Mailing List
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>
> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 37 years, 1987-2024.
>
>
>
>
> --
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhepialidsoftheworld.com.au%2F&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C8700f0088cf44de6483608dc9b50a7ee%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638556018898273105%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C60000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=uMC6oyZo8rDj0EudKC7TkNk5zfDmkkeCvSuL37C9bIk%3D&reserved=0 (use the 'visit archived web site'
> link, then the 'Ghost Moth Research page' link.
>

-- 
https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhepialidsoftheworld.com.au%2F&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C8700f0088cf44de6483608dc9b50a7ee%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638556018898273105%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C60000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=uMC6oyZo8rDj0EudKC7TkNk5zfDmkkeCvSuL37C9bIk%3D&reserved=0 (use the 'visit archived web site'
link, then the 'Ghost Moth Research page' link.