Taxacom: "Early Permian" angiosperms... real or not real taxa/names?

Thu Jun 2 21:41:26 CDT 2022

Tony, you make some 'interesting' assertions. My comment below:

"....unless I am mistaken, these are only hypothetical dates based on
suggestions from molecular evidence"

These 'hypothetical dates" are widely accepted as more than that - even as
empirical proof of age - by many, many, many people, including a number of
individuals on Taxacom.

The suggestions do not come from 'molecular evidence' but from fossils that
are used to calibrate divergence.

"So far as I am aware there are still no "accepted" pre-Cretaceous
angiosperm fossils."

I note that "accepted" is in quote marks.'Accepted' by whom and of what
significance?

"one is forced to the conclusion that either Wachtler's fossils are not
angiosperms, or not  Permian, or perhaps not either, although they do look
like flowers from his pictures.

One is not forced to either conclusion at all.

"in any case there is at least a 150 million year difference
between the  start of the Permian and the start of the Cretaceous periods
(with all of the Triassic and Jurassic between), so something is badly
amiss..."

Really? By what authority in science? What is the scientific criteria for a
fossil gap to be believable? 10 Ma, 50 Ma? 100 Ma? 150 Ma?

Cheers, John Grehan

On Thu, Jun 2, 2022 at 7:53 PM Kenneth Kinman via Taxacom <
taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:

> Hi Tony,
>        I guess it partially depends on how one defines "angiosperm", but I
> think it is much broader than "flowering plant".   Stem angiosperms
> (proto-angiosperms, if you will) were likely around in the Triassic, but
> both their bodies and pollen would have probably been very hard to
> distinguish from gymnosperms.  Even more so if stem-angiosperms were around
> in the Permian.
>       Another problem is that the sister group of angiosperms (sensu lato)
> is also a matter of debate (is the sister group gymnosperms as a whole or
> some subset of gymnosperms?).  In any case, I am rather skeptical that
> Wachtler's Permian fossils are stem-angiosperms.
>                                      -------------------Ken
>
> ________________________________
> From: Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at lists.ku.edu> on behalf of Tony Rees via
> Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, June 2, 2022 6:12 PM
> To: Michael Heads <m.j.heads at gmail.com>
> Cc: taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Subject: Re: Taxacom: "Early Permian" angiosperms... real or not real
> taxa/names?
>
> Hi Michael, yes but unless I am mistaken, these are only hypothetical dates
> based on suggestions from molecular evidence. So far as I am aware there
> are still no "accepted" pre-Cretaceous angiosperm fossils. Were
> Mr/Dr Wachtler's "Early Permian angiosperms" to be authenticated by other
> workers the results would be a paleobotanical sensation, which is I suspect
> why they have been published outside the mainstream literature, more than
> likely without peer review...
>
> I still wonder what it is he is describing, though...
>
> Tony Rees, New South Wales, Australia
>
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fabout.me%2FTonyRees&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C645d64efbda7422d853b08da450aa507%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637898209454240079%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=iR22VYn26jcIdJ98vKL52pQRgSXCHvXa%2F3m1LJVdpWQ%3D&reserved=0
>
>
> On Fri, 3 Jun 2022 at 07:10, Michael Heads <m.j.heads at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi Tony,
> >
> > Dates for angiosperms in recent studies include:
> > Triassic to Late Permian (Beaulieu et al., 2015); Triassic-Permian (Zhang
> > et al., 2020); Triassic-Carboniferous (Salomo et al., 2017), and Permian
> > (Yang et al., 2020).
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 3, 2022 at 8:09 AM Tony Rees via Taxacom <
> taxacom at lists.ku.edu>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Dear Taxacomers,
> >>
> >> As some of you will be aware, with IRMNG (the Interim Register of Marine
> >> and Nonmarine Genera) I attempt to compile a synoptic list of published
> >> genus names, arranged in a "management classification" (an attempt at
> >> synthesis of what seems to be current practise in the literature), for
> all
> >> life i.e. animals, plants and more (including the most obscure
> >> microfossils, viruses and prokaryotes).
> >>
> >> Currently I am attempting to back fill some gaps in recently published
> >> fossil plant names and came across this work and some of its associated
> >> publications: "The Evolution of the First Flowers Early Permian
> >> Angiosperms" by Michael Wachtler, apparently more or less self published
> >> by
> >> the Dolomythos Museum, Italy, see
> >>
> >>
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fprofile%2FWachtler-Michael%2Fpublication%2F341323347_The_Evolution_of_the_First_Flowers_-_Early_Permian_Angiosperms%2Flinks%2F5ebac7e392851c11a8620fbc%2FThe-Evolution-of-the-First-Flowers-Early-Permian-Angiosperms.pdf&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C645d64efbda7422d853b08da450aa507%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637898209454240079%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=3rqvWca1rU3wenj4ej1JBVIilw6zT%2FgYV4wMCbK0l54%3D&reserved=0
> >> , in which he establishes a number of new genera and species for what he
> >> insists are new Permian angiosperm flowers, a contention carried through
> >> to
> >> a number of other, similar works.
> >>
> >> Since otherwise, the earliest accepted angiosperm fossils do not appear
> >> until the Cretaceous (refer e.g. Herendeen et al. 2017,
> >>
> >>
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nature.com%2Farticles%2Fnplants201715&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C645d64efbda7422d853b08da450aa507%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637898209454240079%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=C57f98sLEPAhaxVLz7ANusqhXh2%2BXNqFm%2FsG1aQHVXE%3D&reserved=0
> ),
> >> one is forced to the
> >> conclusion that either Wachtler's fossils are not angiosperms, or not
> >> Permian, or perhaps not either, although they do look like flowers from
> >> his
> >> pictures. Perhaps the dating is wrong - I am no specialist in such
> >> matters;
> >> but in any case there is at least a 150 million year difference between
> >> the
> >> start of the Permian and the start of the Cretaceous periods (with all
> of
> >> the Triassic and Jurassic between), so something is badly amiss...
> >>
> >> Nevertheless, I am wondering whether Wachtler's published names should
> >> stand, from a nomenclatural point of view, irrespective of the
> >> "challenging" ages ascribed to them, or whether they do not merit
> >> inclusion
> >> in my system on the basis of possibly invalid publication (which does
> not
> >> seem to be the case) or other considerations. I note of interest, that
> >> Wachtler's publications do seem to be cited by no-one but himself, which
> >> does raise a bit of a red flag...
> >>
> >> Your opinions welcome!
> >>
> >> Thanks in advance - Tony
> >>
> >> Tony Rees, New South Wales, Australia
> >>
> >>
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fabout.me%2FTonyRees&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C645d64efbda7422d853b08da450aa507%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637898209454240079%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=iR22VYn26jcIdJ98vKL52pQRgSXCHvXa%2F3m1LJVdpWQ%3D&reserved=0
> >>
> >>
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.irmng.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C645d64efbda7422d853b08da450aa507%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637898209454240079%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=E9hH9OLdAZClMn%2FHn0%2FthDoecAbRgNL0lVVyZgPZPE8%3D&reserved=0
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> >>
> >> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years,
> 1987-2022.
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Dunedin, New Zealand.
> >
> > My books:
> >
> > *Biogeography and evolution in New Zealand. *Taylor and Francis/CRC, Boca
> > Raton FL. 2017.
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.routledge.com%2FBiogeography-and-Evolution-in-New-Zealand%2FHeads%2Fp%2Fbook%2F9781498751872&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C645d64efbda7422d853b08da450aa507%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637898209454240079%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=lhXZOhFs92kPvaZz9exJ8oQ%2BV42tg6PXKAKg6Nxus%2Fc%3D&reserved=0
> >
> >
> > *Biogeography of Australasia:  A molecular analysis*. Cambridge
> > University Press, Cambridge. 2014.
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cambridge.org%2F9781107041028&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C645d64efbda7422d853b08da450aa507%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637898209454240079%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=rBt38iH6Og0pPYudIndbrIlls2%2F13VF2QsYZv3bf27Q%3D&reserved=0
> >
> >
> > *Molecular panbiogeography of the tropics. *University of California
> > Press, Berkeley. 2012.
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ucpress.edu%2Fbook.php%3Fisbn%3D9780520271968&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C645d64efbda7422d853b08da450aa507%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637898209454240079%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=yS1z7DVROZ4IQRtGqYVxz8O0XTUfMonhkfI%2B1cZFWnI%3D&reserved=0
> >
> >
> > *Panbiogeography: Tracking the history of life*. Oxford University Press,
> > New York. 1999. (With R. Craw and J. Grehan).
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbooks.google.co.nz%2Fbooks%3Fid%3DBm0_QQ3Z6GUC&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C645d64efbda7422d853b08da450aa507%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637898209454240079%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=AsBDeKnlrk6DhRlCWGeU0EES028JxEflhDTYVpCpqZg%3D&reserved=0
> > <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbooks.google.co.nz%2Fbooks%3Fid%3DBm0_QQ3Z6GUC%26dq%3Dpanbiogeography%26source%3Dgbs_navlinks_s&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C645d64efbda7422d853b08da450aa507%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637898209454240079%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=fhDjyxryKoOgxI6vj9DF47l9u%2Bun5LRIspIubJjODdQ%3D&reserved=0
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
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>
> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.
> _______________________________________________
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>
> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.
>