Taxacom: "Early Permian" angiosperms... real or not real taxa/names?

Thu Jun 2 18:52:31 CDT 2022

Hi Tony,
       I guess it partially depends on how one defines "angiosperm", but I think it is much broader than "flowering plant".   Stem angiosperms (proto-angiosperms, if you will) were likely around in the Triassic, but both their bodies and pollen would have probably been very hard to distinguish from gymnosperms.  Even more so if stem-angiosperms were around in the Permian.
      Another problem is that the sister group of angiosperms (sensu lato) is also a matter of debate (is the sister group gymnosperms as a whole or some subset of gymnosperms?).  In any case, I am rather skeptical that Wachtler's Permian fossils are stem-angiosperms.
                                     -------------------Ken

________________________________
From: Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at lists.ku.edu> on behalf of Tony Rees via Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 2, 2022 6:12 PM
To: Michael Heads <m.j.heads at gmail.com>
Cc: taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
Subject: Re: Taxacom: "Early Permian" angiosperms... real or not real taxa/names?

Hi Michael, yes but unless I am mistaken, these are only hypothetical dates
based on suggestions from molecular evidence. So far as I am aware there
are still no "accepted" pre-Cretaceous angiosperm fossils. Were
Mr/Dr Wachtler's "Early Permian angiosperms" to be authenticated by other
workers the results would be a paleobotanical sensation, which is I suspect
why they have been published outside the mainstream literature, more than
likely without peer review...

I still wonder what it is he is describing, though...

Tony Rees, New South Wales, Australia
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On Fri, 3 Jun 2022 at 07:10, Michael Heads <m.j.heads at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Tony,
>
> Dates for angiosperms in recent studies include:
> Triassic to Late Permian (Beaulieu et al., 2015); Triassic-Permian (Zhang
> et al., 2020); Triassic-Carboniferous (Salomo et al., 2017), and Permian
> (Yang et al., 2020).
>
> On Fri, Jun 3, 2022 at 8:09 AM Tony Rees via Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu>
> wrote:
>
>> Dear Taxacomers,
>>
>> As some of you will be aware, with IRMNG (the Interim Register of Marine
>> and Nonmarine Genera) I attempt to compile a synoptic list of published
>> genus names, arranged in a "management classification" (an attempt at
>> synthesis of what seems to be current practise in the literature), for all
>> life i.e. animals, plants and more (including the most obscure
>> microfossils, viruses and prokaryotes).
>>
>> Currently I am attempting to back fill some gaps in recently published
>> fossil plant names and came across this work and some of its associated
>> publications: "The Evolution of the First Flowers Early Permian
>> Angiosperms" by Michael Wachtler, apparently more or less self published
>> by
>> the Dolomythos Museum, Italy, see
>>
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fprofile%2FWachtler-Michael%2Fpublication%2F341323347_The_Evolution_of_the_First_Flowers_-_Early_Permian_Angiosperms%2Flinks%2F5ebac7e392851c11a8620fbc%2FThe-Evolution-of-the-First-Flowers-Early-Permian-Angiosperms.pdf&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ca1e05367e7684430cc0408da44f2f685%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637898107927451471%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=dbWCa8EYWmwDuzqAG%2Fv1CXZNnKP2DZKhLueYNjaxc8c%3D&reserved=0
>> , in which he establishes a number of new genera and species for what he
>> insists are new Permian angiosperm flowers, a contention carried through
>> to
>> a number of other, similar works.
>>
>> Since otherwise, the earliest accepted angiosperm fossils do not appear
>> until the Cretaceous (refer e.g. Herendeen et al. 2017,
>>
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nature.com%2Farticles%2Fnplants201715&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ca1e05367e7684430cc0408da44f2f685%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637898107927451471%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=COCqLbVzqYzuiEpRtg%2BYr6EYcY73azF%2FpQjldNkK4P8%3D&reserved=0),
>> one is forced to the
>> conclusion that either Wachtler's fossils are not angiosperms, or not
>> Permian, or perhaps not either, although they do look like flowers from
>> his
>> pictures. Perhaps the dating is wrong - I am no specialist in such
>> matters;
>> but in any case there is at least a 150 million year difference between
>> the
>> start of the Permian and the start of the Cretaceous periods (with all of
>> the Triassic and Jurassic between), so something is badly amiss...
>>
>> Nevertheless, I am wondering whether Wachtler's published names should
>> stand, from a nomenclatural point of view, irrespective of the
>> "challenging" ages ascribed to them, or whether they do not merit
>> inclusion
>> in my system on the basis of possibly invalid publication (which does not
>> seem to be the case) or other considerations. I note of interest, that
>> Wachtler's publications do seem to be cited by no-one but himself, which
>> does raise a bit of a red flag...
>>
>> Your opinions welcome!
>>
>> Thanks in advance - Tony
>>
>> Tony Rees, New South Wales, Australia
>>
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fabout.me%2FTonyRees&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ca1e05367e7684430cc0408da44f2f685%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637898107927451471%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=n5E44peH3MAgw49zdbJBKH%2FlGwWUzSqpXPigQS5%2FDmw%3D&reserved=0
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> *Molecular panbiogeography of the tropics. *University of California
> Press, Berkeley. 2012. https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ucpress.edu%2Fbook.php%3Fisbn%3D9780520271968&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ca1e05367e7684430cc0408da44f2f685%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637898107927451471%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=vUHOuonZNvA6BM5I5JlBCZQh7Ak2LBMI%2FL7crzs3pwg%3D&reserved=0
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> *Panbiogeography: Tracking the history of life*. Oxford University Press,
> New York. 1999. (With R. Craw and J. Grehan).
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