Taxacom: Taxacom Digest, Vol 189, Issue 13
Alain Dubois
adbionomina at gmail.com
Sat Jan 22 12:29:27 CST 2022
Dear all,
Please note that all this thread was about the nomenclatural availability
of the nomen Magnificus, not about its validity, as wrongly stated by
several commentators (including Commission's members).
The Code deals with availability in its chapter 4, and with validity in its
chapter 6. Nothing in this discussion was about validity. The confusion
between availability and validity is a basic error of newcomers to
zoological nomenclature, and understanding the difference between both
concepts should be a basic step before addressing more complex
nomenclatural matters.
Best wishes,
Alain
____________________________________
Professeur Émérite Alain Dubois
Muséum National d'Histoire Naturelle
Institut Systématique, Evolution, Biodiversité (ISYEB) - UMR 7205
Reptiles & Amphibiens
CP 30
25 rue Cuvier
75005 Paris
France
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“La culture ce n’est pas avoir le cerveau farci de dates, de noms ou de
chiffres, c’est la qualité du jugement, l’exigence logique, l’appétit de la
preuve, la notion de la complexité des choses et de l’arduité des
problèmes. C’est l’habitude du doute, le discernement dans la méfiance, la
modestie d’opinion, la patience d’ignorer, la certitude qu’on n’a jamais
tout le vrai en partage; c’est avoir l’esprit ferme sans l’avoir rigide,
c’est être armé contre le flou et aussi contre la fausse précision, c’est
refuser tous les fanatismes et jusqu’à ceux qui s’autorisent de la raison;
c’est suspecter les dogmatismes officiels mais sans profit pour les
charlatans, c’est révérer le génie mais sans en faire une idole, c’est
toujours préférer ce qui est à ce qu’on préférerait qui fût.”
(Jean Rostand, Le droit d’être naturaliste, 1963).
____________________________________
Le sam. 22 janv. 2022 à 19:00, <taxacom-request at lists.ku.edu> a écrit :
> Daily News from the Taxacom Mailing List
>
> When responding to a message, please do not copy the entire digest into
> your reply.
> ____________________________________
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Taxacom| Genus name question (Stephen Thorpe)
> 2. Re: Taxacom| Genus name question (John Grehan)
> 3. Re: Taxacom Genus name question (Beach, James H.)
> 4. Re: Taxacom Digest, Vol 189, Issue 12 (Steven Tracey)
> 5. Re: Taxacom Genus name question (John Grehan)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 06:05:27 +0000 (UTC)
> From: Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
> To: Scott Thomson <scott.thomson321 at gmail.com>, John Grehan
> <calabar.john at gmail.com>
> Cc: taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Subject: Re: Taxacom: Taxacom| Genus name question
> Message-ID: <1049354245.1292927.1642831527509 at mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> A magnificent result, John (or perhaps a result exhibiting
> magnificence!)Stephen
> On Saturday, 22 January 2022, 06:25:14 pm NZDT, John Grehan <
> calabar.john at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Amending?my initial comment - after going over all the commentary in more
> detail I realize that there was indeed consensus about the validity of
> Magnificus. Disagreements were over associated issues. After having already
> published a revision of Magnificus I am very happy that there is no need to
> change the name!
> John
> On Sat, Jan 22, 2022 at 12:02 AM John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> My appreciation to Scott, Stephen, and everyone else who provided input on
> this question. I feel a lot happier that there was pretty much consensus,
> or almost so, for accepting Magnificus as valid. Very glad that there is no
> imperative to change it. Sometimes tability is a good thing.
> Cheers, John
> On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 4:38 PM Scott Thomson <scott.thomson321 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Yes I agree with Stephen here, treated as a noun does not have to be one,
> I am no fan of destroying names over some poor grammar, if everything else
> is fine with the name it should not matter it's usable.
> Cheers Scott
>
> On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 6:32 PM Stephen Thorpe via Taxacom <
> taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
>
> ?
> 11.8.?Genus-group names
>
> A genus-group name (see also?Article 10.3) must be a word of two or more
> letters and must be, or be treated as, a noun in the nominative singular.
> TREATED AS
> ? ? On Saturday, 22 January 2022, 10:11:11 am NZDT, John Grehan via
> Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:?
>
> ?I would be interested to have input on judging the validity of the name
> 'Magnificus' which was proposed by a Chinese worker back in 2000 for a
> genus of Hepialidae. The author made no reference to the basis of the name
> (although the moths are quite nice looking and so perhaps it is an allusion
> to this aspect).
>
> Under current rules, is the name valid? I had a colleague make the
> following comments:
>
> "The problem seems to centre on the use by taxonomists of eighteenth
> century "modern" Latin, as used for learned discourse, all a bit mixed up
> with medieval liturgical Latin from the Roman church.
>
> In these branches of Latin it seems likely that as in classical Latin,
> magnficus is not a noun.
>
> So I can see two "legal" positions, from the ICZN point of view.
>
> Generic names must be nouns. Magnificus is not by any stretch of
> imagination a noun. As a generic name it is therefore invalid.
> Magnificus has appeared in the lit as a generic name. As generic names are
> nouns, this act has by definition converted Magnificus into a noun for
> taxonomic usages.
>
> If this ([2]) sounds a bit stretched, consider that many generic names are
> purely artificial. They were not nouns or anything until they appeared in
> the biological literature. So I could make up a name like Rumblustumblus
> (Rumble us, tumble us). It's hard to maintain that it's not a generic name:
> for biological purposes it's now a noun!
>
> The literature is full of prank names, most of them of course specific.? In
> fact various kinds of pranking go all the way back to Linnaeus)."
>
> I hope (wish) to get sufficient clarity to determine if it is absolutely
> necessary to replace the Magnificus' name or not.
>
> Also, why was the rule made that the original word used for a genus have to
> be a noun? In that respect there is a? name 'Viridigigas" but neither green
> or giant are nouns as such. But what do I know?
>
> John Grehan
> _______________________________________________
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>
> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.
>
>
>
> --
> Scott Thomson
>
> Centro de Estudos dos Quel?nios da Amaz?nia - CEQUA
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> Brasil
>
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 01:20:42 -0500
> From: John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
> To: Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
> Cc: taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Subject: Re: Taxacom: Taxacom| Genus name question
> Message-ID:
> <
> CADN0ud2F18-Ap4PRS6iOiTojiGTZx6L3xh3orP8YRSa1orT2dQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Ha ha! From now on just call me 'Your Magnificence'. :)
>
> On Sat, Jan 22, 2022 at 1:05 AM Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz
> >
> wrote:
>
> > A magnificent result, John (or perhaps a result exhibiting magnificence!)
> > Stephen
> >
> > On Saturday, 22 January 2022, 06:25:14 pm NZDT, John Grehan <
> > calabar.john at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Amending my initial comment - after going over all the commentary in more
> > detail I realize that there was indeed consensus about the validity of
> > Magnificus. Disagreements were over associated issues. After having
> already
> > published a revision of Magnificus I am very happy that there is no need
> to
> > change the name!
> >
> > John
> >
> > On Sat, Jan 22, 2022 at 12:02 AM John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > My appreciation to Scott, Stephen, and everyone else who provided input
> on
> > this question. I feel a lot happier that there was pretty much consensus,
> > or almost so, for accepting Magnificus as valid. Very glad that there is
> no
> > imperative to change it. Sometimes tability is a good thing.
> >
> > Cheers, John
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 4:38 PM Scott Thomson <
> scott.thomson321 at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > Yes I agree with Stephen here, treated as a noun does not have to be one,
> > I am no fan of destroying names over some poor grammar, if everything
> else
> > is fine with the name it should not matter it's usable.
> >
> > Cheers Scott
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 6:32 PM Stephen Thorpe via Taxacom <
> > taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
> >
> >
> > 11.8. Genus-group names
> >
> > A genus-group name (see also Article 10.3) must be a word of two or more
> > letters and must be, or be treated as, a noun in the nominative singular.
> > TREATED AS
> > On Saturday, 22 January 2022, 10:11:11 am NZDT, John Grehan via
> > Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
> >
> > I would be interested to have input on judging the validity of the name
> > 'Magnificus' which was proposed by a Chinese worker back in 2000 for a
> > genus of Hepialidae. The author made no reference to the basis of the
> name
> > (although the moths are quite nice looking and so perhaps it is an
> allusion
> > to this aspect).
> >
> > Under current rules, is the name valid? I had a colleague make the
> > following comments:
> >
> > "The problem seems to centre on the use by taxonomists of eighteenth
> > century "modern" Latin, as used for learned discourse, all a bit mixed up
> > with medieval liturgical Latin from the Roman church.
> >
> > In these branches of Latin it seems likely that as in classical Latin,
> > magnficus is not a noun.
> >
> > So I can see two "legal" positions, from the ICZN point of view.
> >
> > Generic names must be nouns. Magnificus is not by any stretch of
> > imagination a noun. As a generic name it is therefore invalid.
> > Magnificus has appeared in the lit as a generic name. As generic names
> are
> > nouns, this act has by definition converted Magnificus into a noun for
> > taxonomic usages.
> >
> > If this ([2]) sounds a bit stretched, consider that many generic names
> are
> > purely artificial. They were not nouns or anything until they appeared in
> > the biological literature. So I could make up a name like Rumblustumblus
> > (Rumble us, tumble us). It's hard to maintain that it's not a generic
> name:
> > for biological purposes it's now a noun!
> >
> > The literature is full of prank names, most of them of course specific.
> In
> > fact various kinds of pranking go all the way back to Linnaeus)."
> >
> > I hope (wish) to get sufficient clarity to determine if it is absolutely
> > necessary to replace the Magnificus' name or not.
> >
> > Also, why was the rule made that the original word used for a genus have
> to
> > be a noun? In that respect there is a name 'Viridigigas" but neither
> green
> > or giant are nouns as such. But what do I know?
> >
> > John Grehan
> > _______________________________________________
> > Taxacom Mailing List
> >
> > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> > For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> > http://lists.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > You can reach the person managing the list at:
> taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
> > The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364687503%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=U%2FQ6vbErqnYFUyRkIfRLLdIgisTeZp25C5iSjaf0uvw%3D&reserved=0
> >
> > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Taxacom Mailing List
> >
> > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> > For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> > http://lists.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > You can reach the person managing the list at:
> taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
> > The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364687503%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=U%2FQ6vbErqnYFUyRkIfRLLdIgisTeZp25C5iSjaf0uvw%3D&reserved=0
> >
> > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Scott Thomson
> >
> > Centro de Estudos dos Quel?nios da Amaz?nia - CEQUA
> > Petr?polis, Manaus
> > State of Amazonas, 69055-010
> > Brasil
> >
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.carettochelys.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364687503%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=ezx7YQO%2BXZHpU%2Beblg5zj4OpmEXJURoe%2Faz0GkZhrDs%3D&reserved=0
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> > Lattes: *
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flattes.cnpq.br%2F0323517916624728*&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364687503%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=MoQL%2F6Hi%2FvkkXpoB1HzFkdgHHgXtuDsjTplYs1nRiGs%3D&reserved=0
> > <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwwws.cnpq.br%2Fcvlattesweb%2FPKG_MENU.menu%3Ff_cod%3D1E409F4BF37BFC4AD13FD58CDB7AA5FD%23&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364687503%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=Kd%2BUlS8%2FJz4WmY6Y9z0vjlCy8%2BZRmBKJdH0rbAZNxyw%3D&reserved=0
> >
> > Skype: Faendalimas
> > Mobile Phone Brasil: +55 11 98178 7270
> > Whatsapp: +55 11 98178 7270
> >
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 15:34:21 +0000
> From: "Beach, James H." <beach at ku.edu>
> To: TAXACOM <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Subject: Re: Taxacom: Taxacom Genus name question
> Message-ID:
> <
> BL3PR01MB7041A1B04906066B0D714E41D35C9 at BL3PR01MB7041.prod.exchangelabs.com
> >
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> So that is what this spurt was all about! Pretty clever.
>
> Jim
>
>
> James H. Beach
> Biodiversity Institute
> University of Kansas
> 1345 Jayhawk Blvd.
> Lawrence, KS 66045
> Cell: 1 785 331-8508
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at lists.ku.edu> on behalf of John Grehan via
> Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu>
> Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2022, 12:22 AM
> To: Stephen Thorpe
> Cc: TAXACOM
> Subject: Re: Taxacom: Taxacom| Genus name question
>
> Ha ha! From now on just call me 'Your Magnificence'. :)
>
> On Sat, Jan 22, 2022 at 1:05 AM Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz
> >
> wrote:
>
> > A magnificent result, John (or perhaps a result exhibiting magnificence!)
> > Stephen
> >
> > On Saturday, 22 January 2022, 06:25:14 pm NZDT, John Grehan <
> > calabar.john at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Amending my initial comment - after going over all the commentary in more
> > detail I realize that there was indeed consensus about the validity of
> > Magnificus. Disagreements were over associated issues. After having
> already
> > published a revision of Magnificus I am very happy that there is no need
> to
> > change the name!
> >
> > John
> >
> > On Sat, Jan 22, 2022 at 12:02 AM John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > My appreciation to Scott, Stephen, and everyone else who provided input
> on
> > this question. I feel a lot happier that there was pretty much consensus,
> > or almost so, for accepting Magnificus as valid. Very glad that there is
> no
> > imperative to change it. Sometimes tability is a good thing.
> >
> > Cheers, John
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 4:38 PM Scott Thomson <
> scott.thomson321 at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > Yes I agree with Stephen here, treated as a noun does not have to be one,
> > I am no fan of destroying names over some poor grammar, if everything
> else
> > is fine with the name it should not matter it's usable.
> >
> > Cheers Scott
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 6:32 PM Stephen Thorpe via Taxacom <
> > taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
> >
> >
> > 11.8. Genus-group names
> >
> > A genus-group name (see also Article 10.3) must be a word of two or more
> > letters and must be, or be treated as, a noun in the nominative singular.
> > TREATED AS
> > On Saturday, 22 January 2022, 10:11:11 am NZDT, John Grehan via
> > Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
> >
> > I would be interested to have input on judging the validity of the name
> > 'Magnificus' which was proposed by a Chinese worker back in 2000 for a
> > genus of Hepialidae. The author made no reference to the basis of the
> name
> > (although the moths are quite nice looking and so perhaps it is an
> allusion
> > to this aspect).
> >
> > Under current rules, is the name valid? I had a colleague make the
> > following comments:
> >
> > "The problem seems to centre on the use by taxonomists of eighteenth
> > century "modern" Latin, as used for learned discourse, all a bit mixed up
> > with medieval liturgical Latin from the Roman church.
> >
> > In these branches of Latin it seems likely that as in classical Latin,
> > magnficus is not a noun.
> >
> > So I can see two "legal" positions, from the ICZN point of view.
> >
> > Generic names must be nouns. Magnificus is not by any stretch of
> > imagination a noun. As a generic name it is therefore invalid.
> > Magnificus has appeared in the lit as a generic name. As generic names
> are
> > nouns, this act has by definition converted Magnificus into a noun for
> > taxonomic usages.
> >
> > If this ([2]) sounds a bit stretched, consider that many generic names
> are
> > purely artificial. They were not nouns or anything until they appeared in
> > the biological literature. So I could make up a name like Rumblustumblus
> > (Rumble us, tumble us). It's hard to maintain that it's not a generic
> name:
> > for biological purposes it's now a noun!
> >
> > The literature is full of prank names, most of them of course specific.
> In
> > fact various kinds of pranking go all the way back to Linnaeus)."
> >
> > I hope (wish) to get sufficient clarity to determine if it is absolutely
> > necessary to replace the Magnificus' name or not.
> >
> > Also, why was the rule made that the original word used for a genus have
> to
> > be a noun? In that respect there is a name 'Viridigigas" but neither
> green
> > or giant are nouns as such. But what do I know?
> >
> > John Grehan
> > _______________________________________________
> > Taxacom Mailing List
> >
> > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> > For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> > http://lists.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > You can reach the person managing the list at:
> taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
> > The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> >
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> >
> >
> > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Taxacom Mailing List
> >
> > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> > For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
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> >
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> <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364687503%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=U%2FQ6vbErqnYFUyRkIfRLLdIgisTeZp25C5iSjaf0uvw%3D&reserved=0
> >
> >
> > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Scott Thomson
> >
> > Centro de Estudos dos Quel?nios da Amaz?nia - CEQUA
> > Petr?polis, Manaus
> > State of Amazonas, 69055-010
> > Brasil
> >
> >
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> >
> > ORCID:
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> <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Forcid.org%2F0000-0003-1279-2722&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364687503%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=7TtYmopC6S3LhvVBKVGYUxad%2B%2BX%2FyTe1ZGIgNb7Soqw%3D&reserved=0
> >
> > Lattes: *
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flattes.cnpq.br%2F0323517916624728*&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364687503%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=MoQL%2F6Hi%2FvkkXpoB1HzFkdgHHgXtuDsjTplYs1nRiGs%3D&reserved=0
> > <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwwws.cnpq.br%2Fcvlattesweb%2FPKG_MENU.menu%3Ff_cod%3D1E409F4BF37BFC4AD13FD58CDB7AA5FD%23&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364687503%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=Kd%2BUlS8%2FJz4WmY6Y9z0vjlCy8%2BZRmBKJdH0rbAZNxyw%3D&reserved=0
> <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwwws.cnpq.br%2Fcvlattesweb%2FPKG_MENU.menu%3Ff_cod%3D1E409F4BF37BFC4AD13FD58CDB7AA5FD%23&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364687503%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=Kd%2BUlS8%2FJz4WmY6Y9z0vjlCy8%2BZRmBKJdH0rbAZNxyw%3D&reserved=0
> >>
> > Skype: Faendalimas
> > Mobile Phone Brasil: +55 11 98178 7270
> > Whatsapp: +55 11 98178 7270
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Taxacom Mailing List
>
> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
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> <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364687503%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=U%2FQ6vbErqnYFUyRkIfRLLdIgisTeZp25C5iSjaf0uvw%3D&reserved=0
> >
>
> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 16:18:45 +0000
> From: Steven Tracey <s.tracey at nhm.ac.uk>
> To: "taxacom at lists.ku.edu" <taxacom at lists.ku.edu>
> Subject: Re: Taxacom: Taxacom Digest, Vol 189, Issue 12
> Message-ID:
> <
> LO2P265MB43499E8AECDA79255839D12AC85C9 at LO2P265MB4349.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM
> >
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Ficus is a Latin noun meaning "fig".
> Magnificus might well have been intended as a Latinization meaning "Big
> fig".
> The fact that there is an adjective with the same spelling is therefore
> irrelevant.
>
> Cheers,
> Steve
>
> ________________________________
> From: Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at lists.ku.edu> on behalf of
> taxacom-request at lists.ku.edu <taxacom-request at lists.ku.edu>
> Sent: 22 January 2022 05:26
> To: taxacom at lists.ku.edu <taxacom at lists.ku.edu>
> Subject: Taxacom Digest, Vol 189, Issue 12
>
> Daily News from the Taxacom Mailing List
>
> When responding to a message, please do not copy the entire digest into
> your reply.
> ____________________________________
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Taxacom| Genus name question (John Grehan)
> 2. Re: Taxacom| Genus name question (Stephen Thorpe)
> 3. Re: Taxacom| Genus name question (Scott Thomson)
> 4. Re: Taxacom| Genus name question (Douglas Yanega)
> 5. Re: Taxacom| Genus name question (John Bruner)
> 6. Re: Taxacom| Genus name question (Stephen Thorpe)
> 7. Re: Taxacom| Genus name question (John Bruner)
> 8. Re: Taxacom| Genus name question (Stephen Thorpe)
> 9. Re: Taxacom| Genus name question (John Bruner)
> 10. Re: Taxacom| Genus name question (Stephen Thorpe)
> 11. Re: Taxacom| Genus name question (John Bruner)
> 12. Re: Taxacom| Genus name question (Stephen Thorpe)
> 13. Re: Taxacom| Genus name question (Francisco Welter-Schultes)
> 14. Re: Taxacom| Genus name question (Scott Thomson)
> 15. Re: Taxacom| Genus name question (David Redei)
> 16. Re: Taxacom| Genus name question (John Grehan)
> 17. Re: Taxacom| Genus name question (John Grehan)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 16:09:30 -0500
> From: John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
> To: taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Subject: Taxacom| Genus name question
> Message-ID:
> <CADN0ud3qgPpu98x1kDCOCozOpQPF1Wq3oH=_BBNK7OfSEnH-=
> A at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> I would be interested to have input on judging the validity of the name
> 'Magnificus' which was proposed by a Chinese worker back in 2000 for a
> genus of Hepialidae. The author made no reference to the basis of the name
> (although the moths are quite nice looking and so perhaps it is an allusion
> to this aspect).
>
> Under current rules, is the name valid? I had a colleague make the
> following comments:
>
> "The problem seems to centre on the use by taxonomists of eighteenth
> century "modern" Latin, as used for learned discourse, all a bit mixed up
> with medieval liturgical Latin from the Roman church.
>
> In these branches of Latin it seems likely that as in classical Latin,
> magnficus is not a noun.
>
> So I can see two "legal" positions, from the ICZN point of view.
>
> Generic names must be nouns. Magnificus is not by any stretch of
> imagination a noun. As a generic name it is therefore invalid.
> Magnificus has appeared in the lit as a generic name. As generic names are
> nouns, this act has by definition converted Magnificus into a noun for
> taxonomic usages.
>
> If this ([2]) sounds a bit stretched, consider that many generic names are
> purely artificial. They were not nouns or anything until they appeared in
> the biological literature. So I could make up a name like Rumblustumblus
> (Rumble us, tumble us). It's hard to maintain that it's not a generic name:
> for biological purposes it's now a noun!
>
> The literature is full of prank names, most of them of course specific. In
> fact various kinds of pranking go all the way back to Linnaeus)."
>
> I hope (wish) to get sufficient clarity to determine if it is absolutely
> necessary to replace the Magnificus' name or not.
>
> Also, why was the rule made that the original word used for a genus have to
> be a noun? In that respect there is a name 'Viridigigas" but neither green
> or giant are nouns as such. But what do I know?
>
> John Grehan
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 21:32:26 +0000 (UTC)
> From: Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
> To: taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>, John Grehan
> <calabar.john at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Taxacom: Taxacom| Genus name question
> Message-ID: <95608845.1184068.1642800746233 at mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
>
> 11.8.?Genus-group names
>
> A genus-group name (see also?Article 10.3) must be a word of two or more
> letters and must be, or be treated as, a noun in the nominative singular.
> TREATED AS
> On Saturday, 22 January 2022, 10:11:11 am NZDT, John Grehan via
> Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
>
> I would be interested to have input on judging the validity of the name
> 'Magnificus' which was proposed by a Chinese worker back in 2000 for a
> genus of Hepialidae. The author made no reference to the basis of the name
> (although the moths are quite nice looking and so perhaps it is an allusion
> to this aspect).
>
> Under current rules, is the name valid? I had a colleague make the
> following comments:
>
> "The problem seems to centre on the use by taxonomists of eighteenth
> century "modern" Latin, as used for learned discourse, all a bit mixed up
> with medieval liturgical Latin from the Roman church.
>
> In these branches of Latin it seems likely that as in classical Latin,
> magnficus is not a noun.
>
> So I can see two "legal" positions, from the ICZN point of view.
>
> Generic names must be nouns. Magnificus is not by any stretch of
> imagination a noun. As a generic name it is therefore invalid.
> Magnificus has appeared in the lit as a generic name. As generic names are
> nouns, this act has by definition converted Magnificus into a noun for
> taxonomic usages.
>
> If this ([2]) sounds a bit stretched, consider that many generic names are
> purely artificial. They were not nouns or anything until they appeared in
> the biological literature. So I could make up a name like Rumblustumblus
> (Rumble us, tumble us). It's hard to maintain that it's not a generic name:
> for biological purposes it's now a noun!
>
> The literature is full of prank names, most of them of course specific.? In
> fact various kinds of pranking go all the way back to Linnaeus)."
>
> I hope (wish) to get sufficient clarity to determine if it is absolutely
> necessary to replace the Magnificus' name or not.
>
> Also, why was the rule made that the original word used for a genus have to
> be a noun? In that respect there is a? name 'Viridigigas" but neither green
> or giant are nouns as such. But what do I know?
>
> John Grehan
> _______________________________________________
> Taxacom Mailing List
>
> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.ku.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364687503%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=CcNpOqrya5d7WB85geyvsxM%2Bg8ezIESP%2BQPWBPcg%2FjM%3D&reserved=0
> You can reach the person managing the list at: taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
> The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364687503%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=U%2FQ6vbErqnYFUyRkIfRLLdIgisTeZp25C5iSjaf0uvw%3D&reserved=0
>
> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 18:38:01 -0300
> From: Scott Thomson <scott.thomson321 at gmail.com>
> To: Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
> Cc: taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Subject: Re: Taxacom: Taxacom| Genus name question
> Message-ID:
> <CADRwqwhbcTJRuLc=
> 1pCFKiDvPdPDOcUuD8UJcP6sGYKRRg1VhQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Yes I agree with Stephen here, treated as a noun does not have to be one, I
> am no fan of destroying names over some poor grammar, if everything else is
> fine with the name it should not matter it's usable.
>
> Cheers Scott
>
> On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 6:32 PM Stephen Thorpe via Taxacom <
> taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
>
> >
> > 11.8. Genus-group names
> >
> > A genus-group name (see also Article 10.3) must be a word of two or more
> > letters and must be, or be treated as, a noun in the nominative singular.
> > TREATED AS
> > On Saturday, 22 January 2022, 10:11:11 am NZDT, John Grehan via
> > Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
> >
> > I would be interested to have input on judging the validity of the name
> > 'Magnificus' which was proposed by a Chinese worker back in 2000 for a
> > genus of Hepialidae. The author made no reference to the basis of the
> name
> > (although the moths are quite nice looking and so perhaps it is an
> allusion
> > to this aspect).
> >
> > Under current rules, is the name valid? I had a colleague make the
> > following comments:
> >
> > "The problem seems to centre on the use by taxonomists of eighteenth
> > century "modern" Latin, as used for learned discourse, all a bit mixed up
> > with medieval liturgical Latin from the Roman church.
> >
> > In these branches of Latin it seems likely that as in classical Latin,
> > magnficus is not a noun.
> >
> > So I can see two "legal" positions, from the ICZN point of view.
> >
> > Generic names must be nouns. Magnificus is not by any stretch of
> > imagination a noun. As a generic name it is therefore invalid.
> > Magnificus has appeared in the lit as a generic name. As generic names
> are
> > nouns, this act has by definition converted Magnificus into a noun for
> > taxonomic usages.
> >
> > If this ([2]) sounds a bit stretched, consider that many generic names
> are
> > purely artificial. They were not nouns or anything until they appeared in
> > the biological literature. So I could make up a name like Rumblustumblus
> > (Rumble us, tumble us). It's hard to maintain that it's not a generic
> name:
> > for biological purposes it's now a noun!
> >
> > The literature is full of prank names, most of them of course specific.
> In
> > fact various kinds of pranking go all the way back to Linnaeus)."
> >
> > I hope (wish) to get sufficient clarity to determine if it is absolutely
> > necessary to replace the Magnificus' name or not.
> >
> > Also, why was the rule made that the original word used for a genus have
> to
> > be a noun? In that respect there is a name 'Viridigigas" but neither
> green
> > or giant are nouns as such. But what do I know?
> >
> > John Grehan
> > _______________________________________________
> > Taxacom Mailing List
> >
> > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> > For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.ku.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364687503%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=CcNpOqrya5d7WB85geyvsxM%2Bg8ezIESP%2BQPWBPcg%2FjM%3D&reserved=0
> > You can reach the person managing the list at:
> taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
> > The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364687503%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=U%2FQ6vbErqnYFUyRkIfRLLdIgisTeZp25C5iSjaf0uvw%3D&reserved=0
> >
> > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Taxacom Mailing List
> >
> > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> > For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.ku.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364687503%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=CcNpOqrya5d7WB85geyvsxM%2Bg8ezIESP%2BQPWBPcg%2FjM%3D&reserved=0
> > You can reach the person managing the list at:
> taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
> > The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364687503%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=U%2FQ6vbErqnYFUyRkIfRLLdIgisTeZp25C5iSjaf0uvw%3D&reserved=0
> >
> > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.
> >
>
>
> --
> Scott Thomson
>
> Centro de Estudos dos Quel?nios da Amaz?nia - CEQUA
> Petr?polis, Manaus
> State of Amazonas, 69055-010
> Brasil
>
>
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.carettochelys.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364687503%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=ezx7YQO%2BXZHpU%2Beblg5zj4OpmEXJURoe%2Faz0GkZhrDs%3D&reserved=0
> ORCID:
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> Lattes: *
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flattes.cnpq.br%2F0323517916624728*&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364687503%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=MoQL%2F6Hi%2FvkkXpoB1HzFkdgHHgXtuDsjTplYs1nRiGs%3D&reserved=0
> <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwwws.cnpq.br%2Fcvlattesweb%2FPKG_MENU.menu%3Ff_cod%3D1E409F4BF37BFC4AD13FD58CDB7AA5FD%23&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364687503%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=Kd%2BUlS8%2FJz4WmY6Y9z0vjlCy8%2BZRmBKJdH0rbAZNxyw%3D&reserved=0
> >
> Skype: Faendalimas
> Mobile Phone Brasil: +55 11 98178 7270
> Whatsapp: +55 11 98178 7270
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 13:44:10 -0800
> From: Douglas Yanega <dyanega at gmail.com>
> To: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> Subject: Re: Taxacom: Taxacom| Genus name question
> Message-ID: <f67d2414-be6f-3db1-e88e-700acf24ec03 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
> Pretty much literally any combination of characters in the Roman
> alphabet can be a valid genus name.
>
> Aa, Aaaba, Aha, Ba, Csiro, Eboo, Ia, Iouea, Ittys, Iyaiyai, Keylimepie,
> Nat, Ohenri, Quasi, Sinatra, This, Ua, Wawu, Zappa, and Zyzzyzus are all
> valid genus names.
>
> See my page linked below.
>
> Peace
>
> --
> Doug Yanega Dept. of Entomology Entomology Research Museum
> Univ. of California, Riverside, CA 92521-0314 skype: dyanega
> phone: (951) 827-4315 (disclaimer: opinions are mine, not UCR's)
>
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ffaculty.ucr.edu%2F~heraty%2Fyanega.html&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364687503%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=I9acR3VCcf%2Brey%2BeQVjKCI%2BOlEasVlfFmIfv7nTRDP8%3D&reserved=0
> "There are some enterprises in which a careful disorderliness
> is the true method" - Herman Melville, Moby Dick, Chap. 82
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 14:51:44 -0700
> From: John Bruner <jbruner at ualberta.ca>
> To: Scott Thomson <scott.thomson321 at gmail.com>
> Cc: taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Subject: Re: Taxacom: Taxacom| Genus name question
> Message-ID:
> <
> CAE1TnqLSFtFoYMdqhNiWNw-AZiY53T9zeMYCh_XypEeG0tXo8A at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Dear John Grehan:
>
> I agree with Scott. I would accept *Magnificus. *It is a nominative
> singular noun. *Fourth declension *or u-nouns end with
> -*us*, or if neuter, *-ua* in the nominative, and *-uum* in the genitive
> plural.
>
> On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 2:39 PM Scott Thomson via Taxacom <
> taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
>
> > Yes I agree with Stephen here, treated as a noun does not have to be
> one, I
> > am no fan of destroying names over some poor grammar, if everything else
> is
> > fine with the name it should not matter it's usable.
> >
> > Cheers Scott
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 6:32 PM Stephen Thorpe via Taxacom <
> > taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > 11.8. Genus-group names
> > >
> > > A genus-group name (see also Article 10.3) must be a word of two or
> more
> > > letters and must be, or be treated as, a noun in the nominative
> singular.
> > > TREATED AS
> > > On Saturday, 22 January 2022, 10:11:11 am NZDT, John Grehan via
> > > Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
> > >
> > > I would be interested to have input on judging the validity of the
> name
> > > 'Magnificus' which was proposed by a Chinese worker back in 2000 for a
> > > genus of Hepialidae. The author made no reference to the basis of the
> > name
> > > (although the moths are quite nice looking and so perhaps it is an
> > allusion
> > > to this aspect).
> > >
> > > Under current rules, is the name valid? I had a colleague make the
> > > following comments:
> > >
> > > "The problem seems to centre on the use by taxonomists of eighteenth
> > > century "modern" Latin, as used for learned discourse, all a bit mixed
> up
> > > with medieval liturgical Latin from the Roman church.
> > >
> > > In these branches of Latin it seems likely that as in classical Latin,
> > > magnficus is not a noun.
> > >
> > > So I can see two "legal" positions, from the ICZN point of view.
> > >
> > > Generic names must be nouns. Magnificus is not by any stretch of
> > > imagination a noun. As a generic name it is therefore invalid.
> > > Magnificus has appeared in the lit as a generic name. As generic names
> > are
> > > nouns, this act has by definition converted Magnificus into a noun for
> > > taxonomic usages.
> > >
> > > If this ([2]) sounds a bit stretched, consider that many generic names
> > are
> > > purely artificial. They were not nouns or anything until they appeared
> in
> > > the biological literature. So I could make up a name like
> Rumblustumblus
> > > (Rumble us, tumble us). It's hard to maintain that it's not a generic
> > name:
> > > for biological purposes it's now a noun!
> > >
> > > The literature is full of prank names, most of them of course specific.
> > In
> > > fact various kinds of pranking go all the way back to Linnaeus)."
> > >
> > > I hope (wish) to get sufficient clarity to determine if it is
> absolutely
> > > necessary to replace the Magnificus' name or not.
> > >
> > > Also, why was the rule made that the original word used for a genus
> have
> > to
> > > be a noun? In that respect there is a name 'Viridigigas" but neither
> > green
> > > or giant are nouns as such. But what do I know?
> > >
> > > John Grehan
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Taxacom Mailing List
> > >
> > > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> > > For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> > >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.ku.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364687503%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=CcNpOqrya5d7WB85geyvsxM%2Bg8ezIESP%2BQPWBPcg%2FjM%3D&reserved=0
> > > You can reach the person managing the list at:
> > taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
> > > The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> > >
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364687503%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=U%2FQ6vbErqnYFUyRkIfRLLdIgisTeZp25C5iSjaf0uvw%3D&reserved=0
> > >
> > > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years,
> 1987-2022.
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Taxacom Mailing List
> > >
> > > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> > > For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> > >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.ku.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364687503%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=CcNpOqrya5d7WB85geyvsxM%2Bg8ezIESP%2BQPWBPcg%2FjM%3D&reserved=0
> > > You can reach the person managing the list at:
> > taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
> > > The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> > >
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364687503%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=U%2FQ6vbErqnYFUyRkIfRLLdIgisTeZp25C5iSjaf0uvw%3D&reserved=0
> > >
> > > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years,
> 1987-2022.
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Scott Thomson
> >
> > Centro de Estudos dos Quel?nios da Amaz?nia - CEQUA
> > Petr?polis, Manaus
> > State of Amazonas, 69055-010
> > Brasil
> >
> >
> >
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> John
> *******************************************************
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 21:58:07 +0000 (UTC)
> From: Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
> To: Scott Thomson <scott.thomson321 at gmail.com>, John Bruner
> <jbruner at ualberta.ca>
> Cc: taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Subject: Re: Taxacom: Taxacom| Genus name question
> Message-ID: <1307258577.1207353.1642802287379 at mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> This does illustrate the unfortunate tendency for people to try to rename
> taxa too glibly (though John Grehan did at least have the good sense to ask
> for clarification first). Renaming for nomenclatural reasons should only be
> an absolute last resort when the need for it is 100% clear. Stephen
> On Saturday, 22 January 2022, 10:51:57 am NZDT, John Bruner <
> jbruner at ualberta.ca> wrote:
>
> Dear John Grehan:
> ? ? ?I agree with Scott. I would accept Magnificus. It is a nominative
> singular noun. Fourth declension or u-nouns end with?-us, or if neuter, -ua
> in the nominative, and -uum?in the genitive plural.
> On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 2:39 PM Scott Thomson via Taxacom <
> taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
>
> Yes I agree with Stephen here, treated as a noun does not have to be one, I
> am no fan of destroying names over some poor grammar, if everything else is
> fine with the name it should not matter it's usable.
>
> Cheers Scott
>
> On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 6:32 PM Stephen Thorpe via Taxacom <
> taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
>
> >
> > 11.8. Genus-group names
> >
> > A genus-group name (see also Article 10.3) must be a word of two or more
> > letters and must be, or be treated as, a noun in the nominative singular.
> > TREATED AS
> >? ? ?On Saturday, 22 January 2022, 10:11:11 am NZDT, John Grehan via
> > Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
> >
> >? I would be interested to have input on judging the validity of the name
> > 'Magnificus' which was proposed by a Chinese worker back in 2000 for a
> > genus of Hepialidae. The author made no reference to the basis of the
> name
> > (although the moths are quite nice looking and so perhaps it is an
> allusion
> > to this aspect).
> >
> > Under current rules, is the name valid? I had a colleague make the
> > following comments:
> >
> > "The problem seems to centre on the use by taxonomists of eighteenth
> > century "modern" Latin, as used for learned discourse, all a bit mixed up
> > with medieval liturgical Latin from the Roman church.
> >
> > In these branches of Latin it seems likely that as in classical Latin,
> > magnficus is not a noun.
> >
> > So I can see two "legal" positions, from the ICZN point of view.
> >
> > Generic names must be nouns. Magnificus is not by any stretch of
> > imagination a noun. As a generic name it is therefore invalid.
> > Magnificus has appeared in the lit as a generic name. As generic names
> are
> > nouns, this act has by definition converted Magnificus into a noun for
> > taxonomic usages.
> >
> > If this ([2]) sounds a bit stretched, consider that many generic names
> are
> > purely artificial. They were not nouns or anything until they appeared in
> > the biological literature. So I could make up a name like Rumblustumblus
> > (Rumble us, tumble us). It's hard to maintain that it's not a generic
> name:
> > for biological purposes it's now a noun!
> >
> > The literature is full of prank names, most of them of course specific.?
> In
> > fact various kinds of pranking go all the way back to Linnaeus)."
> >
> > I hope (wish) to get sufficient clarity to determine if it is absolutely
> > necessary to replace the Magnificus' name or not.
> >
> > Also, why was the rule made that the original word used for a genus have
> to
> > be a noun? In that respect there is a? name 'Viridigigas" but neither
> green
> > or giant are nouns as such. But what do I know?
> >
> > John Grehan
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> >
> > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.
> >
>
>
> --
> Scott Thomson
>
> Centro de Estudos dos Quel?nios da Amaz?nia - CEQUA
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> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.
>
>
>
> --
>
> ? ? ? ? John
> *******************************************************
> * Mr. John C. Bruner ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?*
> * Department of Biological Sciences ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? *
> * University of Alberta ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? *
> * Edmonton, Alberta ? ?_______/////____/~~)_____/==== *
> * T6G 2E9? CANADA ? ? /_ @? > />...w...w...w.....==== *
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> ? ? ? ? *
> *******************************************************
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 14:59:05 -0700
> From: John Bruner <jbruner at ualberta.ca>
> To: Scott Thomson <scott.thomson321 at gmail.com>
> Cc: taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Subject: Re: Taxacom: Taxacom| Genus name question
> Message-ID:
> <CAE1Tnq+m6uAeHWhHw3rrcgTa5JoT_tOsfLh57=
> eZh2QJ6_5FYw at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> I am afraid I disagree with my better, Douglas Yanega. The generic name
> must be a Latinized nominative singular noun.
>
> On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 2:51 PM John Bruner <jbruner at ualberta.ca> wrote:
>
> > Dear John Grehan:
> >
> > I agree with Scott. I would accept *Magnificus. *It is a nominative
> > singular noun. *Fourth declension *or u-nouns end with
> > -*us*, or if neuter, *-ua* in the nominative, and *-uum* in the genitive
> > plural.
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 2:39 PM Scott Thomson via Taxacom <
> > taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
> >
> >> Yes I agree with Stephen here, treated as a noun does not have to be
> one,
> >> I
> >> am no fan of destroying names over some poor grammar, if everything else
> >> is
> >> fine with the name it should not matter it's usable.
> >>
> >> Cheers Scott
> >>
> >> On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 6:32 PM Stephen Thorpe via Taxacom <
> >> taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> > 11.8. Genus-group names
> >> >
> >> > A genus-group name (see also Article 10.3) must be a word of two or
> more
> >> > letters and must be, or be treated as, a noun in the nominative
> >> singular.
> >> > TREATED AS
> >> > On Saturday, 22 January 2022, 10:11:11 am NZDT, John Grehan via
> >> > Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > I would be interested to have input on judging the validity of the
> name
> >> > 'Magnificus' which was proposed by a Chinese worker back in 2000 for a
> >> > genus of Hepialidae. The author made no reference to the basis of the
> >> name
> >> > (although the moths are quite nice looking and so perhaps it is an
> >> allusion
> >> > to this aspect).
> >> >
> >> > Under current rules, is the name valid? I had a colleague make the
> >> > following comments:
> >> >
> >> > "The problem seems to centre on the use by taxonomists of eighteenth
> >> > century "modern" Latin, as used for learned discourse, all a bit mixed
> >> up
> >> > with medieval liturgical Latin from the Roman church.
> >> >
> >> > In these branches of Latin it seems likely that as in classical Latin,
> >> > magnficus is not a noun.
> >> >
> >> > So I can see two "legal" positions, from the ICZN point of view.
> >> >
> >> > Generic names must be nouns. Magnificus is not by any stretch of
> >> > imagination a noun. As a generic name it is therefore invalid.
> >> > Magnificus has appeared in the lit as a generic name. As generic names
> >> are
> >> > nouns, this act has by definition converted Magnificus into a noun for
> >> > taxonomic usages.
> >> >
> >> > If this ([2]) sounds a bit stretched, consider that many generic names
> >> are
> >> > purely artificial. They were not nouns or anything until they appeared
> >> in
> >> > the biological literature. So I could make up a name like
> Rumblustumblus
> >> > (Rumble us, tumble us). It's hard to maintain that it's not a generic
> >> name:
> >> > for biological purposes it's now a noun!
> >> >
> >> > The literature is full of prank names, most of them of course
> >> specific. In
> >> > fact various kinds of pranking go all the way back to Linnaeus)."
> >> >
> >> > I hope (wish) to get sufficient clarity to determine if it is
> absolutely
> >> > necessary to replace the Magnificus' name or not.
> >> >
> >> > Also, why was the rule made that the original word used for a genus
> >> have to
> >> > be a noun? In that respect there is a name 'Viridigigas" but neither
> >> green
> >> > or giant are nouns as such. But what do I know?
> >> >
> >> > John Grehan
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Taxacom Mailing List
> >> >
> >> > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> >> > For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> >> >
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> >> > You can reach the person managing the list at:
> >> taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
> >> > The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> >> >
> >>
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364687503%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=U%2FQ6vbErqnYFUyRkIfRLLdIgisTeZp25C5iSjaf0uvw%3D&reserved=0
> >> >
> >> > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years,
> >> 1987-2022.
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Taxacom Mailing List
> >> >
> >> > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> >> > For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> >> >
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> >> > You can reach the person managing the list at:
> >> taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
> >> > The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> >> >
> >>
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364687503%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=U%2FQ6vbErqnYFUyRkIfRLLdIgisTeZp25C5iSjaf0uvw%3D&reserved=0
> >> >
> >> > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years,
> >> 1987-2022.
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Scott Thomson
> >>
> >> Centro de Estudos dos Quel?nios da Amaz?nia - CEQUA
> >> Petr?polis, Manaus
> >> State of Amazonas, 69055-010
> >> Brasil
> >>
> >>
> >>
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> >> ORCID:
> >>
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> >> <
> >>
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> >> >
> >> Skype: Faendalimas
> >> Mobile Phone Brasil: +55 11 98178 7270
> >> Whatsapp: +55 11 98178 7270
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Taxacom Mailing List
> >>
> >> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> >> For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> >>
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> >> You can reach the person managing the list at:
> taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
> >> The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> >>
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364687503%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=U%2FQ6vbErqnYFUyRkIfRLLdIgisTeZp25C5iSjaf0uvw%3D&reserved=0
> >>
> >> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years,
> 1987-2022.
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > John
> > *******************************************************
> > * Mr. John C. Bruner *
> > * Department of Biological Sciences *
> > * University of Alberta *
> > * Edmonton, Alberta _______/////____/~~)_____/==== *
> > * T6G 2E9 CANADA /_ @ > />...w...w...w.....==== *
> > * (780) 492-5408 \ ______________,_________ ==== *
> > * FAX: (780) 492-9234 \> \> \==== *
> > * VIRTUAL FAX: (780) 492-2216 *
> > * EMAIL: jbruner at ualberta.ca
> > <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwebmail.ualberta.ca%2Fimp%2Fmessage.php%3Fmailbox%3Dsent-mail%26index%3D1363%23&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364687503%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=iXJKajOydScUsZcESyQX7mXZo2qxM%2BbQxhURxLlXzeY%3D&reserved=0
> >
> > *
> > * HOME PAGE:
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ualberta.ca%2F~jbruner%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364687503%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=iK6tI3VmxwuRa3tQMCTqVzUCZaJyJelXxspIzZhY%2BeQ%3D&reserved=0
> *
> > *******************************************************
> >
>
>
> --
>
> John
> *******************************************************
> * Mr. John C. Bruner *
> * Department of Biological Sciences *
> * University of Alberta *
> * Edmonton, Alberta _______/////____/~~)_____/==== *
> * T6G 2E9 CANADA /_ @ > />...w...w...w.....==== *
> * (780) 492-5408 \ ______________,_________ ==== *
> * FAX: (780) 492-9234 \> \> \==== *
> * VIRTUAL FAX: (780) 492-2216 *
> * EMAIL: jbruner at ualberta.ca
> <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwebmail.ualberta.ca%2Fimp%2Fmessage.php%3Fmailbox%3Dsent-mail%26index%3D1363%23&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364687503%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=iXJKajOydScUsZcESyQX7mXZo2qxM%2BbQxhURxLlXzeY%3D&reserved=0
> >
> *
> * HOME PAGE:
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> *
> *******************************************************
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 22:13:05 +0000 (UTC)
> From: Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
> To: Scott Thomson <scott.thomson321 at gmail.com>, John Bruner
> <jbruner at ualberta.ca>
> Cc: taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Subject: Re: Taxacom: Taxacom| Genus name question
> Message-ID: <30180482.1199621.1642803185559 at mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Or treated as one! Read the Code!
> On Saturday, 22 January 2022, 10:59:18 am NZDT, John Bruner <
> jbruner at ualberta.ca> wrote:
>
> I am afraid I disagree with my better, Douglas Yanega. The generic name
> must be a Latinized nominative singular?noun.?
> On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 2:51 PM John Bruner <jbruner at ualberta.ca> wrote:
>
> Dear John Grehan:
> ? ? ?I agree with Scott. I would accept Magnificus. It is a nominative
> singular noun. Fourth declension or u-nouns end with?-us, or if neuter, -ua
> in the nominative, and -uum?in the genitive plural.
> On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 2:39 PM Scott Thomson via Taxacom <
> taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
>
> Yes I agree with Stephen here, treated as a noun does not have to be one, I
> am no fan of destroying names over some poor grammar, if everything else is
> fine with the name it should not matter it's usable.
>
> Cheers Scott
>
> On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 6:32 PM Stephen Thorpe via Taxacom <
> taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
>
> >
> > 11.8. Genus-group names
> >
> > A genus-group name (see also Article 10.3) must be a word of two or more
> > letters and must be, or be treated as, a noun in the nominative singular.
> > TREATED AS
> >? ? ?On Saturday, 22 January 2022, 10:11:11 am NZDT, John Grehan via
> > Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
> >
> >? I would be interested to have input on judging the validity of the name
> > 'Magnificus' which was proposed by a Chinese worker back in 2000 for a
> > genus of Hepialidae. The author made no reference to the basis of the
> name
> > (although the moths are quite nice looking and so perhaps it is an
> allusion
> > to this aspect).
> >
> > Under current rules, is the name valid? I had a colleague make the
> > following comments:
> >
> > "The problem seems to centre on the use by taxonomists of eighteenth
> > century "modern" Latin, as used for learned discourse, all a bit mixed up
> > with medieval liturgical Latin from the Roman church.
> >
> > In these branches of Latin it seems likely that as in classical Latin,
> > magnficus is not a noun.
> >
> > So I can see two "legal" positions, from the ICZN point of view.
> >
> > Generic names must be nouns. Magnificus is not by any stretch of
> > imagination a noun. As a generic name it is therefore invalid.
> > Magnificus has appeared in the lit as a generic name. As generic names
> are
> > nouns, this act has by definition converted Magnificus into a noun for
> > taxonomic usages.
> >
> > If this ([2]) sounds a bit stretched, consider that many generic names
> are
> > purely artificial. They were not nouns or anything until they appeared in
> > the biological literature. So I could make up a name like Rumblustumblus
> > (Rumble us, tumble us). It's hard to maintain that it's not a generic
> name:
> > for biological purposes it's now a noun!
> >
> > The literature is full of prank names, most of them of course specific.?
> In
> > fact various kinds of pranking go all the way back to Linnaeus)."
> >
> > I hope (wish) to get sufficient clarity to determine if it is absolutely
> > necessary to replace the Magnificus' name or not.
> >
> > Also, why was the rule made that the original word used for a genus have
> to
> > be a noun? In that respect there is a? name 'Viridigigas" but neither
> green
> > or giant are nouns as such. But what do I know?
> >
> > John Grehan
> > _______________________________________________
> > Taxacom Mailing List
> >
> > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> > For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.ku.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364687503%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=CcNpOqrya5d7WB85geyvsxM%2Bg8ezIESP%2BQPWBPcg%2FjM%3D&reserved=0
> > You can reach the person managing the list at:
> taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
> > The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364687503%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=U%2FQ6vbErqnYFUyRkIfRLLdIgisTeZp25C5iSjaf0uvw%3D&reserved=0
> >
> > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Taxacom Mailing List
> >
> > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> > For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> >
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> > You can reach the person managing the list at:
> taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
> > The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364687503%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=U%2FQ6vbErqnYFUyRkIfRLLdIgisTeZp25C5iSjaf0uvw%3D&reserved=0
> >
> > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.
> >
>
>
> --
> Scott Thomson
>
> Centro de Estudos dos Quel?nios da Amaz?nia - CEQUA
> Petr?polis, Manaus
> State of Amazonas, 69055-010
> Brasil
>
>
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> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.
>
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>
> --
>
> ? ? ? ? John
> *******************************************************
> * Mr. John C. Bruner ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?*
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> ? ? ? ? *
> *******************************************************
>
>
>
> --
>
> ? ? ? ? John
> *******************************************************
> * Mr. John C. Bruner ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?*
> * Department of Biological Sciences ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? *
> * University of Alberta ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? *
> * Edmonton, Alberta ? ?_______/////____/~~)_____/==== *
> * T6G 2E9? CANADA ? ? /_ @? > />...w...w...w.....==== *
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 15:15:26 -0700
> From: John Bruner <jbruner at ualberta.ca>
> To: Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
> Cc: taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Subject: Re: Taxacom: Taxacom| Genus name question
> Message-ID:
> <
> CAE1TnqLthA1OnjANjEmuLO73+mLFtXyaRWNg8bp42jOE1PWFqg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Yes, I agree. An example in Ichthyology, the AFS/ASIH Fish Names Committee
> incorrectly accepted the German word Sander as the senior synonym for the
> genus *Stizostedion *(Walleye, Sauger, and European Pikeperch).
> *Stizostedion
> *had been correctly in use for 183 years. To make Sander (an alternate
> German spelling of Zander *Stizostedion lucioperca*), a Latinized
> nominative singular noun, the correctly formed Latin noun would be
> *Sandrus*.
> In 1828, 8 years after the correctly formed *Stizostedion *was published in
> 1820 by Rafinesque, Stark (1828) published *Sandrus. *Sander had been
> published as a common name prior to 1820 (Bloch, 1785; Fischer, 1791, and
> Okenfuss (as Oken, 1817) but not as a Latinized name.
>
> On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 2:58 PM Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz
> >
> wrote:
>
> > This does illustrate the unfortunate tendency for people to try to rename
> > taxa too glibly (though John Grehan did at least have the good sense to
> ask
> > for clarification first). Renaming for nomenclatural reasons should only
> be
> > an absolute last resort when the need for it is 100% clear. Stephen
> >
> > On Saturday, 22 January 2022, 10:51:57 am NZDT, John Bruner <
> > jbruner at ualberta.ca> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Dear John Grehan:
> >
> > I agree with Scott. I would accept *Magnificus. *It is a nominative
> > singular noun. *Fourth declension *or u-nouns end with
> > -*us*, or if neuter, *-ua* in the nominative, and *-uum* in the genitive
> > plural.
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 2:39 PM Scott Thomson via Taxacom <
> > taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
> >
> > Yes I agree with Stephen here, treated as a noun does not have to be
> one, I
> > am no fan of destroying names over some poor grammar, if everything else
> is
> > fine with the name it should not matter it's usable.
> >
> > Cheers Scott
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 6:32 PM Stephen Thorpe via Taxacom <
> > taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > 11.8. Genus-group names
> > >
> > > A genus-group name (see also Article 10.3) must be a word of two or
> more
> > > letters and must be, or be treated as, a noun in the nominative
> singular.
> > > TREATED AS
> > > On Saturday, 22 January 2022, 10:11:11 am NZDT, John Grehan via
> > > Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
> > >
> > > I would be interested to have input on judging the validity of the
> name
> > > 'Magnificus' which was proposed by a Chinese worker back in 2000 for a
> > > genus of Hepialidae. The author made no reference to the basis of the
> > name
> > > (although the moths are quite nice looking and so perhaps it is an
> > allusion
> > > to this aspect).
> > >
> > > Under current rules, is the name valid? I had a colleague make the
> > > following comments:
> > >
> > > "The problem seems to centre on the use by taxonomists of eighteenth
> > > century "modern" Latin, as used for learned discourse, all a bit mixed
> up
> > > with medieval liturgical Latin from the Roman church.
> > >
> > > In these branches of Latin it seems likely that as in classical Latin,
> > > magnficus is not a noun.
> > >
> > > So I can see two "legal" positions, from the ICZN point of view.
> > >
> > > Generic names must be nouns. Magnificus is not by any stretch of
> > > imagination a noun. As a generic name it is therefore invalid.
> > > Magnificus has appeared in the lit as a generic name. As generic names
> > are
> > > nouns, this act has by definition converted Magnificus into a noun for
> > > taxonomic usages.
> > >
> > > If this ([2]) sounds a bit stretched, consider that many generic names
> > are
> > > purely artificial. They were not nouns or anything until they appeared
> in
> > > the biological literature. So I could make up a name like
> Rumblustumblus
> > > (Rumble us, tumble us). It's hard to maintain that it's not a generic
> > name:
> > > for biological purposes it's now a noun!
> > >
> > > The literature is full of prank names, most of them of course specific.
> > In
> > > fact various kinds of pranking go all the way back to Linnaeus)."
> > >
> > > I hope (wish) to get sufficient clarity to determine if it is
> absolutely
> > > necessary to replace the Magnificus' name or not.
> > >
> > > Also, why was the rule made that the original word used for a genus
> have
> > to
> > > be a noun? In that respect there is a name 'Viridigigas" but neither
> > green
> > > or giant are nouns as such. But what do I know?
> > >
> > > John Grehan
> > > _______________________________________________
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> > >
> > > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years,
> 1987-2022.
> > >
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> > >
> > > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years,
> 1987-2022.
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Scott Thomson
> >
> > Centro de Estudos dos Quel?nios da Amaz?nia - CEQUA
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> > >
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> >
> > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > John
> >
> > *******************************************************
> > * Mr. John C. Bruner *
> > * Department of Biological Sciences *
> > * University of Alberta *
> > * Edmonton, Alberta _______/////____/~~)_____/==== *
> > * T6G 2E9 CANADA /_ @ > />...w...w...w.....==== *
> > * (780) 492-5408 \ ______________,_________ ==== *
> > * FAX: (780) 492-9234 \> \> \==== *
> > * VIRTUAL FAX: (780) 492-2216 *
> > * EMAIL: jbruner at ualberta.ca
> > <
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> > *
> > * HOME PAGE:
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ualberta.ca%2F~jbruner%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364843706%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=LUB7AC4G9tNFy%2BgB42Yjm4cGDXkvJzha4tKWcUg2Bd0%3D&reserved=0
> > *
> > *******************************************************
> >
> >
>
> --
>
> John
> *******************************************************
> * Mr. John C. Bruner *
> * Department of Biological Sciences *
> * University of Alberta *
> * Edmonton, Alberta _______/////____/~~)_____/==== *
> * T6G 2E9 CANADA /_ @ > />...w...w...w.....==== *
> * (780) 492-5408 \ ______________,_________ ==== *
> * FAX: (780) 492-9234 \> \> \==== *
> * VIRTUAL FAX: (780) 492-2216 *
> * EMAIL: jbruner at ualberta.ca
> <
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> >
> *
> * HOME PAGE:
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> *
> *******************************************************
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 22:29:30 +0000 (UTC)
> From: Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
> To: John Bruner <jbruner at ualberta.ca>
> Cc: taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Subject: Re: Taxacom: Taxacom| Genus name question
> Message-ID: <1941432866.1212801.1642804170817 at mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> It is a bit unclear what exactly you are agreeing with, but to be
> available, a word has to have been clearly intended as a generic name,
> rather than as a common name or descriptive adjective per se
> On Saturday, 22 January 2022, 11:15:39 am NZDT, John Bruner <
> jbruner at ualberta.ca> wrote:
>
> Yes, I agree. An example in Ichthyology, the AFS/ASIH Fish Names
> Committee incorrectly accepted the German word Sander as the senior synonym
> for the genus Stizostedion (Walleye, Sauger, and European Pikeperch).
> ?Stizostedion had been correctly in use for 183 years. To make Sander (an
> alternate German spelling of Zander Stizostedion lucioperca), a Latinized
> nominative singular noun, the correctly formed Latin noun would be Sandrus.
> In 1828, 8 years after the correctly formed?Stizostedion was published in
> 1820 by Rafinesque, Stark (1828) published Sandrus. Sander had been
> published as a common name prior to 1820 (Bloch, 1785; Fischer, 1791, and
> Okenfuss (as Oken, 1817) but not as a Latinized name.?
>
> On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 2:58 PM Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
> wrote:
>
> This does illustrate the unfortunate tendency for people to try to rename
> taxa too glibly (though John Grehan did at least have the good sense to ask
> for clarification first). Renaming for nomenclatural reasons should only be
> an absolute last resort when the need for it is 100% clear. Stephen
> On Saturday, 22 January 2022, 10:51:57 am NZDT, John Bruner <
> jbruner at ualberta.ca> wrote:
>
> Dear John Grehan:
> ? ? ?I agree with Scott. I would accept Magnificus. It is a nominative
> singular noun. Fourth declension or u-nouns end with?-us, or if neuter, -ua
> in the nominative, and -uum?in the genitive plural.
> On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 2:39 PM Scott Thomson via Taxacom <
> taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
>
> Yes I agree with Stephen here, treated as a noun does not have to be one, I
> am no fan of destroying names over some poor grammar, if everything else is
> fine with the name it should not matter it's usable.
>
> Cheers Scott
>
> On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 6:32 PM Stephen Thorpe via Taxacom <
> taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
>
> >
> > 11.8. Genus-group names
> >
> > A genus-group name (see also Article 10.3) must be a word of two or more
> > letters and must be, or be treated as, a noun in the nominative singular.
> > TREATED AS
> >? ? ?On Saturday, 22 January 2022, 10:11:11 am NZDT, John Grehan via
> > Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
> >
> >? I would be interested to have input on judging the validity of the name
> > 'Magnificus' which was proposed by a Chinese worker back in 2000 for a
> > genus of Hepialidae. The author made no reference to the basis of the
> name
> > (although the moths are quite nice looking and so perhaps it is an
> allusion
> > to this aspect).
> >
> > Under current rules, is the name valid? I had a colleague make the
> > following comments:
> >
> > "The problem seems to centre on the use by taxonomists of eighteenth
> > century "modern" Latin, as used for learned discourse, all a bit mixed up
> > with medieval liturgical Latin from the Roman church.
> >
> > In these branches of Latin it seems likely that as in classical Latin,
> > magnficus is not a noun.
> >
> > So I can see two "legal" positions, from the ICZN point of view.
> >
> > Generic names must be nouns. Magnificus is not by any stretch of
> > imagination a noun. As a generic name it is therefore invalid.
> > Magnificus has appeared in the lit as a generic name. As generic names
> are
> > nouns, this act has by definition converted Magnificus into a noun for
> > taxonomic usages.
> >
> > If this ([2]) sounds a bit stretched, consider that many generic names
> are
> > purely artificial. They were not nouns or anything until they appeared in
> > the biological literature. So I could make up a name like Rumblustumblus
> > (Rumble us, tumble us). It's hard to maintain that it's not a generic
> name:
> > for biological purposes it's now a noun!
> >
> > The literature is full of prank names, most of them of course specific.?
> In
> > fact various kinds of pranking go all the way back to Linnaeus)."
> >
> > I hope (wish) to get sufficient clarity to determine if it is absolutely
> > necessary to replace the Magnificus' name or not.
> >
> > Also, why was the rule made that the original word used for a genus have
> to
> > be a noun? In that respect there is a? name 'Viridigigas" but neither
> green
> > or giant are nouns as such. But what do I know?
> >
> > John Grehan
> > _______________________________________________
> > Taxacom Mailing List
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> > The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> >
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> >
> > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.
> >
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> > You can reach the person managing the list at:
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> > The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> >
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> >
> > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.
> >
>
>
> --
> Scott Thomson
>
> Centro de Estudos dos Quel?nios da Amaz?nia - CEQUA
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> >
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>
> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.
>
>
>
> --
>
> ? ? ? ? John
> *******************************************************
> * Mr. John C. Bruner ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?*
> * Department of Biological Sciences ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? *
> * University of Alberta ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? *
> * Edmonton, Alberta ? ?_______/////____/~~)_____/==== *
> * T6G 2E9? CANADA ? ? /_ @? > />...w...w...w.....==== *
> * (780) 492-5408 ? ? ?\ ______________,_________ ==== *
> * FAX: (780) 492-9234 ? ? ? ? ? \> ? ? ?\> ? ? ?\==== *
> * VIRTUAL FAX: (780) 492-2216 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? *
> * EMAIL:?jbruner at ualberta.ca? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? *
> * HOME PAGE:
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ualberta.ca%2F~jbruner%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364843706%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=LUB7AC4G9tNFy%2BgB42Yjm4cGDXkvJzha4tKWcUg2Bd0%3D&reserved=0?
> ? ? ? ? *
> *******************************************************
>
>
>
> --
>
> ? ? ? ? John
> *******************************************************
> * Mr. John C. Bruner ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?*
> * Department of Biological Sciences ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? *
> * University of Alberta ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? *
> * Edmonton, Alberta ? ?_______/////____/~~)_____/==== *
> * T6G 2E9? CANADA ? ? /_ @? > />...w...w...w.....==== *
> * (780) 492-5408 ? ? ?\ ______________,_________ ==== *
> * FAX: (780) 492-9234 ? ? ? ? ? \> ? ? ?\> ? ? ?\==== *
> * VIRTUAL FAX: (780) 492-2216 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? *
> * EMAIL:?jbruner at ualberta.ca? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? *
> * HOME PAGE:
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ualberta.ca%2F~jbruner%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364843706%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=LUB7AC4G9tNFy%2BgB42Yjm4cGDXkvJzha4tKWcUg2Bd0%3D&reserved=0?
> ? ? ? ? *
> *******************************************************
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 19:00:56 -0700
> From: John Bruner <jbruner at ualberta.ca>
> To: Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
> Cc: taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Subject: Re: Taxacom: Taxacom| Genus name question
> Message-ID:
> <CAE1TnqJ0K8c4Y2i6rcd5Gqgbz8uJfnAhzat6y1=
> JsY3tHFMC2w at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Wrong! It must be a Latinized nominative singular noun. Lorenz Okenfuss,
> who published under the name Oken, published an Encyclopedia in 1816 in two
> parts which was declared off limits in Opinion 417 for taxonomic purposes
> because of his use of common names as scientific names. You can't use any
> name you feel like as a generic name.
>
> *Hemming, F. 1956*. Opinion 417. Rejection for nomenclatorial purposes of
> volume 3 (Zoologie) of the work by Lorenz Oken entitled Okens Lehrbuch der
> Naturgeschichte published in 1815? 1816. Opinions and declarations rendered
> by the International Commission on Zoological Nomenclature 14(Part 1):1?42.
>
> On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 3:29 PM Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz
> >
> wrote:
>
> > It is a bit unclear what exactly you are agreeing with, but to be
> > available, a word has to have been clearly intended as a generic name,
> > rather than as a common name or descriptive adjective per se
> >
> > On Saturday, 22 January 2022, 11:15:39 am NZDT, John Bruner <
> > jbruner at ualberta.ca> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Yes, I agree. An example in Ichthyology, the AFS/ASIH Fish Names
> Committee
> > incorrectly accepted the German word Sander as the senior synonym for the
> > genus *Stizostedion *(Walleye, Sauger, and European Pikeperch).
> *Stizostedion
> > *had been correctly in use for 183 years. To make Sander (an alternate
> > German spelling of Zander *Stizostedion lucioperca*), a Latinized
> > nominative singular noun, the correctly formed Latin noun would be
> > *Sandrus*. In 1828, 8 years after the correctly formed *Stizostedion *was
> > published in 1820 by Rafinesque, Stark (1828) published *Sandrus. *Sander
> > had been published as a common name prior to 1820 (Bloch, 1785; Fischer,
> > 1791, and Okenfuss (as Oken, 1817) but not as a Latinized name.
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 2:58 PM Stephen Thorpe <
> stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
> > wrote:
> >
> > This does illustrate the unfortunate tendency for people to try to rename
> > taxa too glibly (though John Grehan did at least have the good sense to
> ask
> > for clarification first). Renaming for nomenclatural reasons should only
> be
> > an absolute last resort when the need for it is 100% clear. Stephen
> >
> > On Saturday, 22 January 2022, 10:51:57 am NZDT, John Bruner <
> > jbruner at ualberta.ca> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Dear John Grehan:
> >
> > I agree with Scott. I would accept *Magnificus. *It is a nominative
> > singular noun. *Fourth declension *or u-nouns end with
> > -*us*, or if neuter, *-ua* in the nominative, and *-uum* in the genitive
> > plural.
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 2:39 PM Scott Thomson via Taxacom <
> > taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
> >
> > Yes I agree with Stephen here, treated as a noun does not have to be
> one, I
> > am no fan of destroying names over some poor grammar, if everything else
> is
> > fine with the name it should not matter it's usable.
> >
> > Cheers Scott
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 6:32 PM Stephen Thorpe via Taxacom <
> > taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > 11.8. Genus-group names
> > >
> > > A genus-group name (see also Article 10.3) must be a word of two or
> more
> > > letters and must be, or be treated as, a noun in the nominative
> singular.
> > > TREATED AS
> > > On Saturday, 22 January 2022, 10:11:11 am NZDT, John Grehan via
> > > Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
> > >
> > > I would be interested to have input on judging the validity of the
> name
> > > 'Magnificus' which was proposed by a Chinese worker back in 2000 for a
> > > genus of Hepialidae. The author made no reference to the basis of the
> > name
> > > (although the moths are quite nice looking and so perhaps it is an
> > allusion
> > > to this aspect).
> > >
> > > Under current rules, is the name valid? I had a colleague make the
> > > following comments:
> > >
> > > "The problem seems to centre on the use by taxonomists of eighteenth
> > > century "modern" Latin, as used for learned discourse, all a bit mixed
> up
> > > with medieval liturgical Latin from the Roman church.
> > >
> > > In these branches of Latin it seems likely that as in classical Latin,
> > > magnficus is not a noun.
> > >
> > > So I can see two "legal" positions, from the ICZN point of view.
> > >
> > > Generic names must be nouns. Magnificus is not by any stretch of
> > > imagination a noun. As a generic name it is therefore invalid.
> > > Magnificus has appeared in the lit as a generic name. As generic names
> > are
> > > nouns, this act has by definition converted Magnificus into a noun for
> > > taxonomic usages.
> > >
> > > If this ([2]) sounds a bit stretched, consider that many generic names
> > are
> > > purely artificial. They were not nouns or anything until they appeared
> in
> > > the biological literature. So I could make up a name like
> Rumblustumblus
> > > (Rumble us, tumble us). It's hard to maintain that it's not a generic
> > name:
> > > for biological purposes it's now a noun!
> > >
> > > The literature is full of prank names, most of them of course specific.
> > In
> > > fact various kinds of pranking go all the way back to Linnaeus)."
> > >
> > > I hope (wish) to get sufficient clarity to determine if it is
> absolutely
> > > necessary to replace the Magnificus' name or not.
> > >
> > > Also, why was the rule made that the original word used for a genus
> have
> > to
> > > be a noun? In that respect there is a name 'Viridigigas" but neither
> > green
> > > or giant are nouns as such. But what do I know?
> > >
> > > John Grehan
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Taxacom Mailing List
> > >
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> > > For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> > >
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> > >
> >
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> > >
> > > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years,
> 1987-2022.
> > >
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> >
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> > >
> > > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years,
> 1987-2022.
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Scott Thomson
> >
> > Centro de Estudos dos Quel?nios da Amaz?nia - CEQUA
> > Petr?polis, Manaus
> > State of Amazonas, 69055-010
> > Brasil
> >
> >
> >
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> > >
> > Skype: Faendalimas
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> >
> > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > John
> >
> > *******************************************************
> > * Mr. John C. Bruner *
> > * Department of Biological Sciences *
> > * University of Alberta *
> > * Edmonton, Alberta _______/////____/~~)_____/==== *
> > * T6G 2E9 CANADA /_ @ > />...w...w...w.....==== *
> > * (780) 492-5408 \ ______________,_________ ==== *
> > * FAX: (780) 492-9234 \> \> \==== *
> > * VIRTUAL FAX: (780) 492-2216 *
> > * EMAIL: jbruner at ualberta.ca
> > <
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> >
> > *
> > * HOME PAGE:
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> > *
> > *******************************************************
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > John
> > *******************************************************
> > * Mr. John C. Bruner *
> > * Department of Biological Sciences *
> > * University of Alberta *
> > * Edmonton, Alberta _______/////____/~~)_____/==== *
> > * T6G 2E9 CANADA /_ @ > />...w...w...w.....==== *
> > * (780) 492-5408 \ ______________,_________ ==== *
> > * FAX: (780) 492-9234 \> \> \==== *
> > * VIRTUAL FAX: (780) 492-2216 *
> > * EMAIL: jbruner at ualberta.ca
> > <
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> >
> > *
> > * HOME PAGE:
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> *
> > *******************************************************
> >
>
>
> --
>
> John
> *******************************************************
> * Mr. John C. Bruner *
> * Department of Biological Sciences *
> * University of Alberta *
> * Edmonton, Alberta _______/////____/~~)_____/==== *
> * T6G 2E9 CANADA /_ @ > />...w...w...w.....==== *
> * (780) 492-5408 \ ______________,_________ ==== *
> * FAX: (780) 492-9234 \> \> \==== *
> * VIRTUAL FAX: (780) 492-2216 *
> * EMAIL: jbruner at ualberta.ca
> <
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> *******************************************************
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 02:21:22 +0000 (UTC)
> From: Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
> To: John Bruner <jbruner at ualberta.ca>
> Cc: taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Subject: Re: Taxacom: Taxacom| Genus name question
> Message-ID: <878093281.1252761.1642818082254 at mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Opinions on particular cases are not to be used as precedents applicable
> more generally. Best to avoid use of "wrong", in favour of "I disagree'
> On Saturday, 22 January 2022, 03:01:11 pm NZDT, John Bruner <
> jbruner at ualberta.ca> wrote:
>
> Wrong!? It must be a Latinized nominative singular noun. Lorenz Okenfuss,
> who published under the name Oken, published an Encyclopedia?in 1816 in two
> parts which was declared off limits?in Opinion 417 for taxonomic purposes
> because of his use of common names as scientific names. You can't use any
> name you feel like as a generic name.?
> Hemming, F. 1956. Opinion 417. Rejection for nomenclatorial purposes of
> volume 3 (Zoologie) of the work by Lorenz Oken entitled Okens Lehrbuch der
> Naturgeschichte published in 1815? 1816. Opinions and declarations rendered
> by the International Commission on Zoological Nomenclature 14(Part 1):1?42.
> On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 3:29 PM Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
> wrote:
>
> It is a bit unclear what exactly you are agreeing with, but to be
> available, a word has to have been clearly intended as a generic name,
> rather than as a common name or descriptive adjective per se
> On Saturday, 22 January 2022, 11:15:39 am NZDT, John Bruner <
> jbruner at ualberta.ca> wrote:
>
> Yes, I agree. An example in Ichthyology, the AFS/ASIH Fish Names
> Committee incorrectly accepted the German word Sander as the senior synonym
> for the genus Stizostedion (Walleye, Sauger, and European Pikeperch).
> ?Stizostedion had been correctly in use for 183 years. To make Sander (an
> alternate German spelling of Zander Stizostedion lucioperca), a Latinized
> nominative singular noun, the correctly formed Latin noun would be Sandrus.
> In 1828, 8 years after the correctly formed?Stizostedion was published in
> 1820 by Rafinesque, Stark (1828) published Sandrus. Sander had been
> published as a common name prior to 1820 (Bloch, 1785; Fischer, 1791, and
> Okenfuss (as Oken, 1817) but not as a Latinized name.?
>
> On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 2:58 PM Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
> wrote:
>
> This does illustrate the unfortunate tendency for people to try to rename
> taxa too glibly (though John Grehan did at least have the good sense to ask
> for clarification first). Renaming for nomenclatural reasons should only be
> an absolute last resort when the need for it is 100% clear. Stephen
> On Saturday, 22 January 2022, 10:51:57 am NZDT, John Bruner <
> jbruner at ualberta.ca> wrote:
>
> Dear John Grehan:
> ? ? ?I agree with Scott. I would accept Magnificus. It is a nominative
> singular noun. Fourth declension or u-nouns end with?-us, or if neuter, -ua
> in the nominative, and -uum?in the genitive plural.
> On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 2:39 PM Scott Thomson via Taxacom <
> taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
>
> Yes I agree with Stephen here, treated as a noun does not have to be one, I
> am no fan of destroying names over some poor grammar, if everything else is
> fine with the name it should not matter it's usable.
>
> Cheers Scott
>
> On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 6:32 PM Stephen Thorpe via Taxacom <
> taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
>
> >
> > 11.8. Genus-group names
> >
> > A genus-group name (see also Article 10.3) must be a word of two or more
> > letters and must be, or be treated as, a noun in the nominative singular.
> > TREATED AS
> >? ? ?On Saturday, 22 January 2022, 10:11:11 am NZDT, John Grehan via
> > Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
> >
> >? I would be interested to have input on judging the validity of the name
> > 'Magnificus' which was proposed by a Chinese worker back in 2000 for a
> > genus of Hepialidae. The author made no reference to the basis of the
> name
> > (although the moths are quite nice looking and so perhaps it is an
> allusion
> > to this aspect).
> >
> > Under current rules, is the name valid? I had a colleague make the
> > following comments:
> >
> > "The problem seems to centre on the use by taxonomists of eighteenth
> > century "modern" Latin, as used for learned discourse, all a bit mixed up
> > with medieval liturgical Latin from the Roman church.
> >
> > In these branches of Latin it seems likely that as in classical Latin,
> > magnficus is not a noun.
> >
> > So I can see two "legal" positions, from the ICZN point of view.
> >
> > Generic names must be nouns. Magnificus is not by any stretch of
> > imagination a noun. As a generic name it is therefore invalid.
> > Magnificus has appeared in the lit as a generic name. As generic names
> are
> > nouns, this act has by definition converted Magnificus into a noun for
> > taxonomic usages.
> >
> > If this ([2]) sounds a bit stretched, consider that many generic names
> are
> > purely artificial. They were not nouns or anything until they appeared in
> > the biological literature. So I could make up a name like Rumblustumblus
> > (Rumble us, tumble us). It's hard to maintain that it's not a generic
> name:
> > for biological purposes it's now a noun!
> >
> > The literature is full of prank names, most of them of course specific.?
> In
> > fact various kinds of pranking go all the way back to Linnaeus)."
> >
> > I hope (wish) to get sufficient clarity to determine if it is absolutely
> > necessary to replace the Magnificus' name or not.
> >
> > Also, why was the rule made that the original word used for a genus have
> to
> > be a noun? In that respect there is a? name 'Viridigigas" but neither
> green
> > or giant are nouns as such. But what do I know?
> >
> > John Grehan
> > _______________________________________________
> > Taxacom Mailing List
> >
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>
> --
> Scott Thomson
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> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.
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>
> --
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> ? ? ? ? John
> *******************************************************
> * Mr. John C. Bruner ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?*
> * Department of Biological Sciences ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? *
> * University of Alberta ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? *
> * Edmonton, Alberta ? ?_______/////____/~~)_____/==== *
> * T6G 2E9? CANADA ? ? /_ @? > />...w...w...w.....==== *
> * (780) 492-5408 ? ? ?\ ______________,_________ ==== *
> * FAX: (780) 492-9234 ? ? ? ? ? \> ? ? ?\> ? ? ?\==== *
> * VIRTUAL FAX: (780) 492-2216 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? *
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> ? ? ? ? *
> *******************************************************
>
>
>
> --
>
> ? ? ? ? John
> *******************************************************
> * Mr. John C. Bruner ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?*
> * Department of Biological Sciences ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? *
> * University of Alberta ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? *
> * Edmonton, Alberta ? ?_______/////____/~~)_____/==== *
> * T6G 2E9? CANADA ? ? /_ @? > />...w...w...w.....==== *
> * (780) 492-5408 ? ? ?\ ______________,_________ ==== *
> * FAX: (780) 492-9234 ? ? ? ? ? \> ? ? ?\> ? ? ?\==== *
> * VIRTUAL FAX: (780) 492-2216 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? *
> * EMAIL:?jbruner at ualberta.ca? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? *
> * HOME PAGE:
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ualberta.ca%2F~jbruner%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364843706%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=LUB7AC4G9tNFy%2BgB42Yjm4cGDXkvJzha4tKWcUg2Bd0%3D&reserved=0?
> ? ? ? ? *
> *******************************************************
>
>
>
> --
>
> ? ? ? ? John
> *******************************************************
> * Mr. John C. Bruner ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?*
> * Department of Biological Sciences ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? *
> * University of Alberta ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? *
> * Edmonton, Alberta ? ?_______/////____/~~)_____/==== *
> * T6G 2E9? CANADA ? ? /_ @? > />...w...w...w.....==== *
> * (780) 492-5408 ? ? ?\ ______________,_________ ==== *
> * FAX: (780) 492-9234 ? ? ? ? ? \> ? ? ?\> ? ? ?\==== *
> * VIRTUAL FAX: (780) 492-2216 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? *
> * EMAIL:?jbruner at ualberta.ca? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? *
> * HOME PAGE:
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> ? ? ? ? *
> *******************************************************
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 13
> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 04:05:47 +0100
> From: Francisco Welter-Schultes <fwelter at gwdg.de>
> To: <taxacom at lists.ku.edu>
> Subject: Re: Taxacom: Taxacom| Genus name question
> Message-ID: <4e9d72e6-2836-d84f-58b2-d0ceff347926 at gwdg.de>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed
>
> Magnificus can be a genus-group name given that it was treated as a noun
> in the original source, as Stephen explained.
>
> The genus-group name Sander was not made available by Oken in 1817, it
> was a nomen nudum there on p. 1782.
>
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.biodiversitylibrary.org%2Fitem%2F47608%23page%2F608%2Fmode%2F1up&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364843706%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=qLMFPW%2BIhtplb%2FT58boLAnC6KijrBrqRIyKUwwWDafw%3D&reserved=0
>
> If this helps.
>
> Best wishes
> Francisco
>
>
> -----
> Francisco Welter-Schultes
>
> Am 21.01.2022 um 22:09 schrieb John Grehan via Taxacom:
> > I would be interested to have input on judging the validity of the name
> > 'Magnificus' which was proposed by a Chinese worker back in 2000 for a
> > genus of Hepialidae. The author made no reference to the basis of the
> name
> > (although the moths are quite nice looking and so perhaps it is an
> allusion
> > to this aspect).
> >
> > Under current rules, is the name valid? I had a colleague make the
> > following comments:
> >
> > "The problem seems to centre on the use by taxonomists of eighteenth
> > century "modern" Latin, as used for learned discourse, all a bit mixed up
> > with medieval liturgical Latin from the Roman church.
> >
> > In these branches of Latin it seems likely that as in classical Latin,
> > magnficus is not a noun.
> >
> > So I can see two "legal" positions, from the ICZN point of view.
> >
> > Generic names must be nouns. Magnificus is not by any stretch of
> > imagination a noun. As a generic name it is therefore invalid.
> > Magnificus has appeared in the lit as a generic name. As generic names
> are
> > nouns, this act has by definition converted Magnificus into a noun for
> > taxonomic usages.
> >
> > If this ([2]) sounds a bit stretched, consider that many generic names
> are
> > purely artificial. They were not nouns or anything until they appeared in
> > the biological literature. So I could make up a name like Rumblustumblus
> > (Rumble us, tumble us). It's hard to maintain that it's not a generic
> name:
> > for biological purposes it's now a noun!
> >
> > The literature is full of prank names, most of them of course specific.
> In
> > fact various kinds of pranking go all the way back to Linnaeus)."
> >
> > I hope (wish) to get sufficient clarity to determine if it is absolutely
> > necessary to replace the Magnificus' name or not.
> >
> > Also, why was the rule made that the original word used for a genus have
> to
> > be a noun? In that respect there is a name 'Viridigigas" but neither
> green
> > or giant are nouns as such. But what do I know?
> >
> > John Grehan
> > _______________________________________________
> > Taxacom Mailing List
> >
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> > You can reach the person managing the list at:
> taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
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> >
> > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.
> > .
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 14
> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 00:07:13 -0300
> From: Scott Thomson <scott.thomson321 at gmail.com>
> To: Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
> Cc: taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Subject: Re: Taxacom: Taxacom| Genus name question
> Message-ID:
> <CADRwqwizjTUPaQK5o5CrQKwx-9Q2dV_8q7n1WRA=
> mKkmRzpDLw at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> My impression of that ruling was that the names and work was rejected due
> to the inconsistent and essentially non use of binomial nomenclature
> throughout. Not over the latin issue, As such there have been other
> opinions from the ICZN in a similar vein where works were rejected due to
> the non use of binomial nomenclature. I dont see the correlation to the
> structure of latin words for nomenclature and that they must be nouns.
>
> Cheers Scott
>
> On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 11:21 PM Stephen Thorpe <
> stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
> wrote:
>
> > Opinions on particular cases are not to be used as precedents applicable
> > more generally. Best to avoid use of "wrong", in favour of "I disagree'
> >
> > On Saturday, 22 January 2022, 03:01:11 pm NZDT, John Bruner <
> > jbruner at ualberta.ca> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Wrong! It must be a Latinized nominative singular noun. Lorenz Okenfuss,
> > who published under the name Oken, published an Encyclopedia in 1816 in
> two
> > parts which was declared off limits in Opinion 417 for taxonomic purposes
> > because of his use of common names as scientific names. You can't use any
> > name you feel like as a generic name.
> >
> > *Hemming, F. 1956*. Opinion 417. Rejection for nomenclatorial purposes of
> > volume 3 (Zoologie) of the work by Lorenz Oken entitled Okens Lehrbuch
> der
> > Naturgeschichte published in 1815? 1816. Opinions and declarations
> rendered
> > by the International Commission on Zoological Nomenclature 14(Part
> 1):1?42.
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 3:29 PM Stephen Thorpe <
> stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
> > wrote:
> >
> > It is a bit unclear what exactly you are agreeing with, but to be
> > available, a word has to have been clearly intended as a generic name,
> > rather than as a common name or descriptive adjective per se
> >
> > On Saturday, 22 January 2022, 11:15:39 am NZDT, John Bruner <
> > jbruner at ualberta.ca> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Yes, I agree. An example in Ichthyology, the AFS/ASIH Fish Names
> Committee
> > incorrectly accepted the German word Sander as the senior synonym for the
> > genus *Stizostedion *(Walleye, Sauger, and European Pikeperch).
> *Stizostedion
> > *had been correctly in use for 183 years. To make Sander (an alternate
> > German spelling of Zander *Stizostedion lucioperca*), a Latinized
> > nominative singular noun, the correctly formed Latin noun would be
> > *Sandrus*. In 1828, 8 years after the correctly formed *Stizostedion *was
> > published in 1820 by Rafinesque, Stark (1828) published *Sandrus. *Sander
> > had been published as a common name prior to 1820 (Bloch, 1785; Fischer,
> > 1791, and Okenfuss (as Oken, 1817) but not as a Latinized name.
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 2:58 PM Stephen Thorpe <
> stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
> > wrote:
> >
> > This does illustrate the unfortunate tendency for people to try to rename
> > taxa too glibly (though John Grehan did at least have the good sense to
> ask
> > for clarification first). Renaming for nomenclatural reasons should only
> be
> > an absolute last resort when the need for it is 100% clear. Stephen
> >
> > On Saturday, 22 January 2022, 10:51:57 am NZDT, John Bruner <
> > jbruner at ualberta.ca> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Dear John Grehan:
> >
> > I agree with Scott. I would accept *Magnificus. *It is a nominative
> > singular noun. *Fourth declension *or u-nouns end with
> > -*us*, or if neuter, *-ua* in the nominative, and *-uum* in the genitive
> > plural.
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 2:39 PM Scott Thomson via Taxacom <
> > taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
> >
> > Yes I agree with Stephen here, treated as a noun does not have to be
> one, I
> > am no fan of destroying names over some poor grammar, if everything else
> is
> > fine with the name it should not matter it's usable.
> >
> > Cheers Scott
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 6:32 PM Stephen Thorpe via Taxacom <
> > taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > 11.8. Genus-group names
> > >
> > > A genus-group name (see also Article 10.3) must be a word of two or
> more
> > > letters and must be, or be treated as, a noun in the nominative
> singular.
> > > TREATED AS
> > > On Saturday, 22 January 2022, 10:11:11 am NZDT, John Grehan via
> > > Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
> > >
> > > I would be interested to have input on judging the validity of the
> name
> > > 'Magnificus' which was proposed by a Chinese worker back in 2000 for a
> > > genus of Hepialidae. The author made no reference to the basis of the
> > name
> > > (although the moths are quite nice looking and so perhaps it is an
> > allusion
> > > to this aspect).
> > >
> > > Under current rules, is the name valid? I had a colleague make the
> > > following comments:
> > >
> > > "The problem seems to centre on the use by taxonomists of eighteenth
> > > century "modern" Latin, as used for learned discourse, all a bit mixed
> up
> > > with medieval liturgical Latin from the Roman church.
> > >
> > > In these branches of Latin it seems likely that as in classical Latin,
> > > magnficus is not a noun.
> > >
> > > So I can see two "legal" positions, from the ICZN point of view.
> > >
> > > Generic names must be nouns. Magnificus is not by any stretch of
> > > imagination a noun. As a generic name it is therefore invalid.
> > > Magnificus has appeared in the lit as a generic name. As generic names
> > are
> > > nouns, this act has by definition converted Magnificus into a noun for
> > > taxonomic usages.
> > >
> > > If this ([2]) sounds a bit stretched, consider that many generic names
> > are
> > > purely artificial. They were not nouns or anything until they appeared
> in
> > > the biological literature. So I could make up a name like
> Rumblustumblus
> > > (Rumble us, tumble us). It's hard to maintain that it's not a generic
> > name:
> > > for biological purposes it's now a noun!
> > >
> > > The literature is full of prank names, most of them of course specific.
> > In
> > > fact various kinds of pranking go all the way back to Linnaeus)."
> > >
> > > I hope (wish) to get sufficient clarity to determine if it is
> absolutely
> > > necessary to replace the Magnificus' name or not.
> > >
> > > Also, why was the rule made that the original word used for a genus
> have
> > to
> > > be a noun? In that respect there is a name 'Viridigigas" but neither
> > green
> > > or giant are nouns as such. But what do I know?
> > >
> > > John Grehan
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Taxacom Mailing List
> > >
> > > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> > > For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> > >
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> > > You can reach the person managing the list at:
> > taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
> > > The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> > >
> >
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> > >
> > > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years,
> 1987-2022.
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Taxacom Mailing List
> > >
> > > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> > > For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> > >
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> > > You can reach the person managing the list at:
> > taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
> > > The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> > >
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364843706%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=WRvIwcWfxscJ%2F5v%2FAp4dajTpas2R%2BxowXVcXxEqBVTM%3D&reserved=0
> > >
> > > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years,
> 1987-2022.
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Scott Thomson
> >
> > Centro de Estudos dos Quel?nios da Amaz?nia - CEQUA
> > Petr?polis, Manaus
> > State of Amazonas, 69055-010
> > Brasil
> >
> >
> >
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> > ORCID:
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Forcid.org%2F0000-0003-1279-2722&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364843706%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=J3tIVsuwQg72ivRCK9bNbaN4DC7nnx5KwHW5LRcyhxY%3D&reserved=0
> > Lattes: *
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flattes.cnpq.br%2F0323517916624728*&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364843706%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=mTz0Cqfnsi4ttT2E9wx53dSv0nLPBzuKFSY7oPRMik4%3D&reserved=0
> > <
> >
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> > >
> > Skype: Faendalimas
> > Mobile Phone Brasil: +55 11 98178 7270
> > Whatsapp: +55 11 98178 7270
> > _______________________________________________
> > Taxacom Mailing List
> >
> > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> > For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.ku.edu%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364843706%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=0VwoGYb%2BMUOttSs9bP6fG4uPv2XaPnai%2Bx2Svg8fPA8%3D&reserved=0
> > You can reach the person managing the list at:
> taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
> > The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364843706%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=WRvIwcWfxscJ%2F5v%2FAp4dajTpas2R%2BxowXVcXxEqBVTM%3D&reserved=0
> >
> > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > John
> >
> > *******************************************************
> > * Mr. John C. Bruner *
> > * Department of Biological Sciences *
> > * University of Alberta *
> > * Edmonton, Alberta _______/////____/~~)_____/==== *
> > * T6G 2E9 CANADA /_ @ > />...w...w...w.....==== *
> > * (780) 492-5408 \ ______________,_________ ==== *
> > * FAX: (780) 492-9234 \> \> \==== *
> > * VIRTUAL FAX: (780) 492-2216 *
> > * EMAIL: jbruner at ualberta.ca
> > <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwebmail.ualberta.ca%2Fimp%2Fmessage.php%3Fmailbox%3Dsent-mail%26index%3D1363%23&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364843706%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=iPveSYlmaYAllFTiYNK189yngMuSMuM4unUBi85k8N4%3D&reserved=0
> >
> > *
> > * HOME PAGE:
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ualberta.ca%2F~jbruner%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364843706%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=LUB7AC4G9tNFy%2BgB42Yjm4cGDXkvJzha4tKWcUg2Bd0%3D&reserved=0
> > *
> > *******************************************************
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > John
> > *******************************************************
> > * Mr. John C. Bruner *
> > * Department of Biological Sciences *
> > * University of Alberta *
> > * Edmonton, Alberta _______/////____/~~)_____/==== *
> > * T6G 2E9 CANADA /_ @ > />...w...w...w.....==== *
> > * (780) 492-5408 \ ______________,_________ ==== *
> > * FAX: (780) 492-9234 \> \> \==== *
> > * VIRTUAL FAX: (780) 492-2216 *
> > * EMAIL: jbruner at ualberta.ca
> > <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwebmail.ualberta.ca%2Fimp%2Fmessage.php%3Fmailbox%3Dsent-mail%26index%3D1363%23&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364843706%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=iPveSYlmaYAllFTiYNK189yngMuSMuM4unUBi85k8N4%3D&reserved=0
> >
> > *
> > * HOME PAGE:
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ualberta.ca%2F~jbruner%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364843706%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=LUB7AC4G9tNFy%2BgB42Yjm4cGDXkvJzha4tKWcUg2Bd0%3D&reserved=0
> *
> > *******************************************************
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > John
> > *******************************************************
> > * Mr. John C. Bruner *
> > * Department of Biological Sciences *
> > * University of Alberta *
> > * Edmonton, Alberta _______/////____/~~)_____/==== *
> > * T6G 2E9 CANADA /_ @ > />...w...w...w.....==== *
> > * (780) 492-5408 \ ______________,_________ ==== *
> > * FAX: (780) 492-9234 \> \> \==== *
> > * VIRTUAL FAX: (780) 492-2216 *
> > * EMAIL: jbruner at ualberta.ca
> > <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwebmail.ualberta.ca%2Fimp%2Fmessage.php%3Fmailbox%3Dsent-mail%26index%3D1363%23&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364843706%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=iPveSYlmaYAllFTiYNK189yngMuSMuM4unUBi85k8N4%3D&reserved=0
> >
> > *
> > * HOME PAGE:
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ualberta.ca%2F~jbruner%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364843706%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=LUB7AC4G9tNFy%2BgB42Yjm4cGDXkvJzha4tKWcUg2Bd0%3D&reserved=0
> *
> > *******************************************************
> >
>
>
> --
> Scott Thomson
>
> Centro de Estudos dos Quel?nios da Amaz?nia - CEQUA
> Petr?polis, Manaus
> State of Amazonas, 69055-010
> Brasil
>
>
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.carettochelys.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364843706%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=GR1wWoT5Gi1XwMM7O97h72BfKXof4oDWZmrlbLY%2FLKI%3D&reserved=0
> ORCID:
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> Lattes: *
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flattes.cnpq.br%2F0323517916624728*&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364843706%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=mTz0Cqfnsi4ttT2E9wx53dSv0nLPBzuKFSY7oPRMik4%3D&reserved=0
> <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwwws.cnpq.br%2Fcvlattesweb%2FPKG_MENU.menu%3Ff_cod%3D1E409F4BF37BFC4AD13FD58CDB7AA5FD%23&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364843706%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=EJr49yriXtVU1WCdI5IDlxoNflsbHz96oucIPxBYAro%3D&reserved=0
> >
> Skype: Faendalimas
> Mobile Phone Brasil: +55 11 98178 7270
> Whatsapp: +55 11 98178 7270
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 15
> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 12:06:07 +0800
> From: David Redei <david.redei at gmail.com>
> To: taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Subject: Re: Taxacom: Taxacom| Genus name question
> Message-ID:
> <CAGA-UB=
> OpV6eJTuBNZfrDxuEr0+fpKw+fWPHtvSRk2yP+Cer6Q at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Is there any adjective which cannot be nominalized (= treated as a noun)?
> Like magnificus = magnificent [adjective] --> "the magnificent one / the
> magnificent person" or even "the person called Magnificus" [noun]. Just
> like in English, "increase tax for the rich!", where "rich" is in fact a
> noun, meaning "the rich persons".
>
> In Psalm 13 of the Vulgata (Psalm 14 in King James), the well-known passage
> goes like: "Dixit insipiens in corde suo: non est Deus". If you look it up
> in a dictionary you will see that insipiens is an adjective meaning
> "foolish":
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wiktionary.org%2Fwiki%2Finsipiens&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364843706%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=bIthls0FRYJjEyZ0GtJ4OHyy%2BYQQEx4kQaFIwU8zFhs%3D&reserved=0
> , and it is true, it is
> very commonly used as an adjective, you can form its superlative as
> "insipientissimus" etc. But in the above sentence it is nominalized = it is
> used as a noun (note "suo" in the same sentence!), meaning "the foolish
> one" or "the fool".
>
> Whether a word is an adjective or a noun is not an inherent attribute of
> the word itself (as a lexical entry), but it rather indicates how the word
> functions grammatically *in a given sentence*. ICZN says that the name must
> be TREATED as a noun, and along the above lines pretty much any adjective
> (more precisely, any word which can take the function of an adjective in a
> sentence) can be TREATED as a noun. So do not worry too much about it,
> John.
>
> With best wishes,
>
> David Redei
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 16
> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 00:02:43 -0500
> From: John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
> To: Scott Thomson <scott.thomson321 at gmail.com>
> Cc: taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Subject: Re: Taxacom: Taxacom| Genus name question
> Message-ID:
> <CADN0ud1YmC-YQHyOV3gWX=
> GpaProoWLooqdPputOryNiJuORnA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> My appreciation to Scott, Stephen, and everyone else who provided input on
> this question. I feel a lot happier that there was pretty much consensus,
> or almost so, for accepting Magnificus as valid. Very glad that there is no
> imperative to change it. Sometimes tability is a good thing.
>
> Cheers, John
>
> On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 4:38 PM Scott Thomson <scott.thomson321 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Yes I agree with Stephen here, treated as a noun does not have to be one,
> > I am no fan of destroying names over some poor grammar, if everything
> else
> > is fine with the name it should not matter it's usable.
> >
> > Cheers Scott
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 6:32 PM Stephen Thorpe via Taxacom <
> > taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> 11.8. Genus-group names
> >>
> >> A genus-group name (see also Article 10.3) must be a word of two or more
> >> letters and must be, or be treated as, a noun in the nominative
> singular.
> >> TREATED AS
> >> On Saturday, 22 January 2022, 10:11:11 am NZDT, John Grehan via
> >> Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
> >>
> >> I would be interested to have input on judging the validity of the name
> >> 'Magnificus' which was proposed by a Chinese worker back in 2000 for a
> >> genus of Hepialidae. The author made no reference to the basis of the
> name
> >> (although the moths are quite nice looking and so perhaps it is an
> >> allusion
> >> to this aspect).
> >>
> >> Under current rules, is the name valid? I had a colleague make the
> >> following comments:
> >>
> >> "The problem seems to centre on the use by taxonomists of eighteenth
> >> century "modern" Latin, as used for learned discourse, all a bit mixed
> up
> >> with medieval liturgical Latin from the Roman church.
> >>
> >> In these branches of Latin it seems likely that as in classical Latin,
> >> magnficus is not a noun.
> >>
> >> So I can see two "legal" positions, from the ICZN point of view.
> >>
> >> Generic names must be nouns. Magnificus is not by any stretch of
> >> imagination a noun. As a generic name it is therefore invalid.
> >> Magnificus has appeared in the lit as a generic name. As generic names
> are
> >> nouns, this act has by definition converted Magnificus into a noun for
> >> taxonomic usages.
> >>
> >> If this ([2]) sounds a bit stretched, consider that many generic names
> are
> >> purely artificial. They were not nouns or anything until they appeared
> in
> >> the biological literature. So I could make up a name like Rumblustumblus
> >> (Rumble us, tumble us). It's hard to maintain that it's not a generic
> >> name:
> >> for biological purposes it's now a noun!
> >>
> >> The literature is full of prank names, most of them of course specific.
> >> In
> >> fact various kinds of pranking go all the way back to Linnaeus)."
> >>
> >> I hope (wish) to get sufficient clarity to determine if it is absolutely
> >> necessary to replace the Magnificus' name or not.
> >>
> >> Also, why was the rule made that the original word used for a genus have
> >> to
> >> be a noun? In that respect there is a name 'Viridigigas" but neither
> >> green
> >> or giant are nouns as such. But what do I know?
> >>
> >> John Grehan
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Taxacom Mailing List
> >>
> >> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> >> For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> >>
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.ku.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364843706%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=TeN%2FrqxDVbUb3xQlbVi9hzUTKeCeffo1IeDgT5B09dI%3D&reserved=0
> >> You can reach the person managing the list at:
> taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
> >> The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> >>
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364843706%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=WRvIwcWfxscJ%2F5v%2FAp4dajTpas2R%2BxowXVcXxEqBVTM%3D&reserved=0
> >>
> >> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years,
> 1987-2022.
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Taxacom Mailing List
> >>
> >> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> >> For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> >>
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.ku.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364843706%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=TeN%2FrqxDVbUb3xQlbVi9hzUTKeCeffo1IeDgT5B09dI%3D&reserved=0
> >> You can reach the person managing the list at:
> taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
> >> The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> >>
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364843706%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=WRvIwcWfxscJ%2F5v%2FAp4dajTpas2R%2BxowXVcXxEqBVTM%3D&reserved=0
> >>
> >> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years,
> 1987-2022.
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Scott Thomson
> >
> > Centro de Estudos dos Quel?nios da Amaz?nia - CEQUA
> > Petr?polis, Manaus
> > State of Amazonas, 69055-010
> > Brasil
> >
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.carettochelys.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364843706%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=GR1wWoT5Gi1XwMM7O97h72BfKXof4oDWZmrlbLY%2FLKI%3D&reserved=0
> > ORCID:
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Forcid.org%2F0000-0003-1279-2722&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364843706%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=J3tIVsuwQg72ivRCK9bNbaN4DC7nnx5KwHW5LRcyhxY%3D&reserved=0
> > Lattes: *
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flattes.cnpq.br%2F0323517916624728*&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364843706%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=mTz0Cqfnsi4ttT2E9wx53dSv0nLPBzuKFSY7oPRMik4%3D&reserved=0
> > <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwwws.cnpq.br%2Fcvlattesweb%2FPKG_MENU.menu%3Ff_cod%3D1E409F4BF37BFC4AD13FD58CDB7AA5FD%23&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364843706%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=EJr49yriXtVU1WCdI5IDlxoNflsbHz96oucIPxBYAro%3D&reserved=0
> >
> > Skype: Faendalimas
> > Mobile Phone Brasil: +55 11 98178 7270
> > Whatsapp: +55 11 98178 7270
> >
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 17
> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 00:24:34 -0500
> From: John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
> To: Scott Thomson <scott.thomson321 at gmail.com>
> Cc: taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Subject: Re: Taxacom: Taxacom| Genus name question
> Message-ID:
> <CADN0ud30G2FyuUQm56_idvy-AGFTpw=
> Z2UbfHMWYz5ftMtdVdQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Amending my initial comment - after going over all the commentary in more
> detail I realize that there was indeed consensus about the validity of
> Magnificus. Disagreements were over associated issues. After having already
> published a revision of Magnificus I am very happy that there is no need to
> change the name!
>
> John
>
> On Sat, Jan 22, 2022 at 12:02 AM John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > My appreciation to Scott, Stephen, and everyone else who provided input
> on
> > this question. I feel a lot happier that there was pretty much consensus,
> > or almost so, for accepting Magnificus as valid. Very glad that there is
> no
> > imperative to change it. Sometimes tability is a good thing.
> >
> > Cheers, John
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 4:38 PM Scott Thomson <
> scott.thomson321 at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Yes I agree with Stephen here, treated as a noun does not have to be
> one,
> >> I am no fan of destroying names over some poor grammar, if everything
> else
> >> is fine with the name it should not matter it's usable.
> >>
> >> Cheers Scott
> >>
> >> On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 6:32 PM Stephen Thorpe via Taxacom <
> >> taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> 11.8. Genus-group names
> >>>
> >>> A genus-group name (see also Article 10.3) must be a word of two or
> more
> >>> letters and must be, or be treated as, a noun in the nominative
> singular.
> >>> TREATED AS
> >>> On Saturday, 22 January 2022, 10:11:11 am NZDT, John Grehan via
> >>> Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I would be interested to have input on judging the validity of the
> name
> >>> 'Magnificus' which was proposed by a Chinese worker back in 2000 for a
> >>> genus of Hepialidae. The author made no reference to the basis of the
> >>> name
> >>> (although the moths are quite nice looking and so perhaps it is an
> >>> allusion
> >>> to this aspect).
> >>>
> >>> Under current rules, is the name valid? I had a colleague make the
> >>> following comments:
> >>>
> >>> "The problem seems to centre on the use by taxonomists of eighteenth
> >>> century "modern" Latin, as used for learned discourse, all a bit mixed
> up
> >>> with medieval liturgical Latin from the Roman church.
> >>>
> >>> In these branches of Latin it seems likely that as in classical Latin,
> >>> magnficus is not a noun.
> >>>
> >>> So I can see two "legal" positions, from the ICZN point of view.
> >>>
> >>> Generic names must be nouns. Magnificus is not by any stretch of
> >>> imagination a noun. As a generic name it is therefore invalid.
> >>> Magnificus has appeared in the lit as a generic name. As generic names
> >>> are
> >>> nouns, this act has by definition converted Magnificus into a noun for
> >>> taxonomic usages.
> >>>
> >>> If this ([2]) sounds a bit stretched, consider that many generic names
> >>> are
> >>> purely artificial. They were not nouns or anything until they appeared
> in
> >>> the biological literature. So I could make up a name like
> Rumblustumblus
> >>> (Rumble us, tumble us). It's hard to maintain that it's not a generic
> >>> name:
> >>> for biological purposes it's now a noun!
> >>>
> >>> The literature is full of prank names, most of them of course specific.
> >>> In
> >>> fact various kinds of pranking go all the way back to Linnaeus)."
> >>>
> >>> I hope (wish) to get sufficient clarity to determine if it is
> absolutely
> >>> necessary to replace the Magnificus' name or not.
> >>>
> >>> Also, why was the rule made that the original word used for a genus
> have
> >>> to
> >>> be a noun? In that respect there is a name 'Viridigigas" but neither
> >>> green
> >>> or giant are nouns as such. But what do I know?
> >>>
> >>> John Grehan
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Taxacom Mailing List
> >>>
> >>> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> >>> For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> >>>
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.ku.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364843706%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=TeN%2FrqxDVbUb3xQlbVi9hzUTKeCeffo1IeDgT5B09dI%3D&reserved=0
> >>> You can reach the person managing the list at:
> >>> taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
> >>> The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> >>>
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364843706%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=WRvIwcWfxscJ%2F5v%2FAp4dajTpas2R%2BxowXVcXxEqBVTM%3D&reserved=0
> >>>
> >>> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years,
> 1987-2022.
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Taxacom Mailing List
> >>>
> >>> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> >>> For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> >>>
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.ku.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364843706%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=TeN%2FrqxDVbUb3xQlbVi9hzUTKeCeffo1IeDgT5B09dI%3D&reserved=0
> >>> You can reach the person managing the list at:
> >>> taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
> >>> The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> >>>
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364843706%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=WRvIwcWfxscJ%2F5v%2FAp4dajTpas2R%2BxowXVcXxEqBVTM%3D&reserved=0
> >>>
> >>> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years,
> 1987-2022.
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Scott Thomson
> >>
> >> Centro de Estudos dos Quel?nios da Amaz?nia - CEQUA
> >> Petr?polis, Manaus
> >> State of Amazonas, 69055-010
> >> Brasil
> >>
> >>
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.carettochelys.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364843706%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=GR1wWoT5Gi1XwMM7O97h72BfKXof4oDWZmrlbLY%2FLKI%3D&reserved=0
> >> ORCID:
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Forcid.org%2F0000-0003-1279-2722&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364843706%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=J3tIVsuwQg72ivRCK9bNbaN4DC7nnx5KwHW5LRcyhxY%3D&reserved=0
> >> Lattes: *
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flattes.cnpq.br%2F0323517916624728*&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364843706%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=mTz0Cqfnsi4ttT2E9wx53dSv0nLPBzuKFSY7oPRMik4%3D&reserved=0
> >> <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwwws.cnpq.br%2Fcvlattesweb%2FPKG_MENU.menu%3Ff_cod%3D1E409F4BF37BFC4AD13FD58CDB7AA5FD%23&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C004331a052824fecd3db08d9ddd535c6%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784731364843706%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=EJr49yriXtVU1WCdI5IDlxoNflsbHz96oucIPxBYAro%3D&reserved=0
> >
> >> Skype: Faendalimas
> >> Mobile Phone Brasil: +55 11 98178 7270
> >> Whatsapp: +55 11 98178 7270
> >>
> >>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
> Taxacom Mailing List
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>
> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of Taxacom Digest, Vol 189, Issue 12
> ****************************************
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 11:49:48 -0500
> From: John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
> To: "Beach, James H." <beach at ku.edu>
> Cc: TAXACOM <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Subject: Re: Taxacom: Taxacom Genus name question
> Message-ID:
> <CADN0ud0uyd4hP8S2_YihXStOiUr3CDKtzuHqT=_pcD=
> JpC3ihQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> It beats 'Your Lordship'. PS - I forgot to credit John Turner (UK
> entomologist and ghost moth collaborator) for raising this issue with me
> and permitting posting of his comments). Cheers, John
>
> On Sat, Jan 22, 2022 at 10:34 AM Beach, James H. via Taxacom <
> taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
>
> > So that is what this spurt was all about! Pretty clever.
> >
> > Jim
> >
> >
> > James H. Beach
> > Biodiversity Institute
> > University of Kansas
> > 1345 Jayhawk Blvd.
> > Lawrence, KS 66045
> > Cell: 1 785 331-8508
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at lists.ku.edu> on behalf of John Grehan
> via
> > Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu>
> > Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2022, 12:22 AM
> > To: Stephen Thorpe
> > Cc: TAXACOM
> > Subject: Re: Taxacom: Taxacom| Genus name question
> >
> > Ha ha! From now on just call me 'Your Magnificence'. :)
> >
> > On Sat, Jan 22, 2022 at 1:05 AM Stephen Thorpe <
> stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz
> > >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > A magnificent result, John (or perhaps a result exhibiting
> magnificence!)
> > > Stephen
> > >
> > > On Saturday, 22 January 2022, 06:25:14 pm NZDT, John Grehan <
> > > calabar.john at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Amending my initial comment - after going over all the commentary in
> more
> > > detail I realize that there was indeed consensus about the validity of
> > > Magnificus. Disagreements were over associated issues. After having
> > already
> > > published a revision of Magnificus I am very happy that there is no
> need
> > to
> > > change the name!
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > > On Sat, Jan 22, 2022 at 12:02 AM John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > My appreciation to Scott, Stephen, and everyone else who provided input
> > on
> > > this question. I feel a lot happier that there was pretty much
> consensus,
> > > or almost so, for accepting Magnificus as valid. Very glad that there
> is
> > no
> > > imperative to change it. Sometimes tability is a good thing.
> > >
> > > Cheers, John
> > >
> > > On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 4:38 PM Scott Thomson <
> > scott.thomson321 at gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > Yes I agree with Stephen here, treated as a noun does not have to be
> one,
> > > I am no fan of destroying names over some poor grammar, if everything
> > else
> > > is fine with the name it should not matter it's usable.
> > >
> > > Cheers Scott
> > >
> > > On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 6:32 PM Stephen Thorpe via Taxacom <
> > > taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > 11.8. Genus-group names
> > >
> > > A genus-group name (see also Article 10.3) must be a word of two or
> more
> > > letters and must be, or be treated as, a noun in the nominative
> singular.
> > > TREATED AS
> > > On Saturday, 22 January 2022, 10:11:11 am NZDT, John Grehan via
> > > Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
> > >
> > > I would be interested to have input on judging the validity of the
> name
> > > 'Magnificus' which was proposed by a Chinese worker back in 2000 for a
> > > genus of Hepialidae. The author made no reference to the basis of the
> > name
> > > (although the moths are quite nice looking and so perhaps it is an
> > allusion
> > > to this aspect).
> > >
> > > Under current rules, is the name valid? I had a colleague make the
> > > following comments:
> > >
> > > "The problem seems to centre on the use by taxonomists of eighteenth
> > > century "modern" Latin, as used for learned discourse, all a bit mixed
> up
> > > with medieval liturgical Latin from the Roman church.
> > >
> > > In these branches of Latin it seems likely that as in classical Latin,
> > > magnficus is not a noun.
> > >
> > > So I can see two "legal" positions, from the ICZN point of view.
> > >
> > > Generic names must be nouns. Magnificus is not by any stretch of
> > > imagination a noun. As a generic name it is therefore invalid.
> > > Magnificus has appeared in the lit as a generic name. As generic names
> > are
> > > nouns, this act has by definition converted Magnificus into a noun for
> > > taxonomic usages.
> > >
> > > If this ([2]) sounds a bit stretched, consider that many generic names
> > are
> > > purely artificial. They were not nouns or anything until they appeared
> in
> > > the biological literature. So I could make up a name like
> Rumblustumblus
> > > (Rumble us, tumble us). It's hard to maintain that it's not a generic
> > name:
> > > for biological purposes it's now a noun!
> > >
> > > The literature is full of prank names, most of them of course specific.
> > In
> > > fact various kinds of pranking go all the way back to Linnaeus)."
> > >
> > > I hope (wish) to get sufficient clarity to determine if it is
> absolutely
> > > necessary to replace the Magnificus' name or not.
> > >
> > > Also, why was the rule made that the original word used for a genus
> have
> > to
> > > be a noun? In that respect there is a name 'Viridigigas" but neither
> > green
> > > or giant are nouns as such. But what do I know?
> > >
> > > John Grehan
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> > >
> > >
> > > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years,
> 1987-2022.
> > >
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> > >
> > >
> > > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years,
> 1987-2022.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Scott Thomson
> > >
> > > Centro de Estudos dos Quel?nios da Amaz?nia - CEQUA
> > > Petr?polis, Manaus
> > > State of Amazonas, 69055-010
> > > Brasil
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> > >
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