Taxacom: Taxacom Digest, Vol 189, Issue 12

Sat Jan 22 10:18:45 CST 2022

Ficus is a Latin noun meaning "fig".
Magnificus might well have been intended as a Latinization meaning "Big fig".
The fact that there is an adjective with the same spelling is therefore irrelevant.

Cheers,
Steve

________________________________
From: Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at lists.ku.edu> on behalf of taxacom-request at lists.ku.edu <taxacom-request at lists.ku.edu>
Sent: 22 January 2022 05:26
To: taxacom at lists.ku.edu <taxacom at lists.ku.edu>
Subject: Taxacom Digest, Vol 189, Issue 12

Daily News from the Taxacom Mailing List

When responding to a message, please do not copy the entire digest into your reply.
____________________________________

Today's Topics:

   1. Taxacom| Genus name question (John Grehan)
   2. Re: Taxacom| Genus name question (Stephen Thorpe)
   3. Re: Taxacom| Genus name question (Scott Thomson)
   4. Re: Taxacom| Genus name question (Douglas Yanega)
   5. Re: Taxacom| Genus name question (John Bruner)
   6. Re: Taxacom| Genus name question (Stephen Thorpe)
   7. Re: Taxacom| Genus name question (John Bruner)
   8. Re: Taxacom| Genus name question (Stephen Thorpe)
   9. Re: Taxacom| Genus name question (John Bruner)
  10. Re: Taxacom| Genus name question (Stephen Thorpe)
  11. Re: Taxacom| Genus name question (John Bruner)
  12. Re: Taxacom| Genus name question (Stephen Thorpe)
  13. Re: Taxacom| Genus name question (Francisco Welter-Schultes)
  14. Re: Taxacom| Genus name question (Scott Thomson)
  15. Re: Taxacom| Genus name question (David Redei)
  16. Re: Taxacom| Genus name question (John Grehan)
  17. Re: Taxacom| Genus name question (John Grehan)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 16:09:30 -0500
From: John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
To: taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
Subject: Taxacom| Genus name question
Message-ID:
        <CADN0ud3qgPpu98x1kDCOCozOpQPF1Wq3oH=_BBNK7OfSEnH-=A at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

I would be interested to have input on judging the validity of the name
'Magnificus' which was proposed by a Chinese worker back in 2000 for a
genus of Hepialidae. The author made no reference to the basis of the name
(although the moths are quite nice looking and so perhaps it is an allusion
to this aspect).

Under current rules, is the name valid? I had a colleague make the
following comments:

"The problem seems to centre on the use by taxonomists of eighteenth
century "modern" Latin, as used for learned discourse, all a bit mixed up
with medieval liturgical Latin from the Roman church.

In these branches of Latin it seems likely that as in classical Latin,
magnficus is not a noun.

So I can see two "legal" positions, from the ICZN point of view.

Generic names must be nouns. Magnificus is not by any stretch of
imagination a noun. As a generic name it is therefore invalid.
Magnificus has appeared in the lit as a generic name. As generic names are
nouns, this act has by definition converted Magnificus into a noun for
taxonomic usages.

If this ([2]) sounds a bit stretched, consider that many generic names are
purely artificial. They were not nouns or anything until they appeared in
the biological literature. So I could make up a name like Rumblustumblus
(Rumble us, tumble us). It's hard to maintain that it's not a generic name:
for biological purposes it's now a noun!

The literature is full of prank names, most of them of course specific.  In
fact various kinds of pranking go all the way back to Linnaeus)."

I hope (wish) to get sufficient clarity to determine if it is absolutely
necessary to replace the Magnificus' name or not.

Also, why was the rule made that the original word used for a genus have to
be a noun? In that respect there is a  name 'Viridigigas" but neither green
or giant are nouns as such. But what do I know?

John Grehan

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 21:32:26 +0000 (UTC)
From: Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
To: taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>, John Grehan
        <calabar.john at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Taxacom: Taxacom| Genus name question
Message-ID: <95608845.1184068.1642800746233 at mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

11.8.?Genus-group names

A genus-group name (see also?Article 10.3) must be a word of two or more letters and must be, or be treated as, a noun in the nominative singular.
TREATED AS
    On Saturday, 22 January 2022, 10:11:11 am NZDT, John Grehan via Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:

 I would be interested to have input on judging the validity of the name
'Magnificus' which was proposed by a Chinese worker back in 2000 for a
genus of Hepialidae. The author made no reference to the basis of the name
(although the moths are quite nice looking and so perhaps it is an allusion
to this aspect).

Under current rules, is the name valid? I had a colleague make the
following comments:

"The problem seems to centre on the use by taxonomists of eighteenth
century "modern" Latin, as used for learned discourse, all a bit mixed up
with medieval liturgical Latin from the Roman church.

In these branches of Latin it seems likely that as in classical Latin,
magnficus is not a noun.

So I can see two "legal" positions, from the ICZN point of view.

Generic names must be nouns. Magnificus is not by any stretch of
imagination a noun. As a generic name it is therefore invalid.
Magnificus has appeared in the lit as a generic name. As generic names are
nouns, this act has by definition converted Magnificus into a noun for
taxonomic usages.

If this ([2]) sounds a bit stretched, consider that many generic names are
purely artificial. They were not nouns or anything until they appeared in
the biological literature. So I could make up a name like Rumblustumblus
(Rumble us, tumble us). It's hard to maintain that it's not a generic name:
for biological purposes it's now a noun!

The literature is full of prank names, most of them of course specific.? In
fact various kinds of pranking go all the way back to Linnaeus)."

I hope (wish) to get sufficient clarity to determine if it is absolutely
necessary to replace the Magnificus' name or not.

Also, why was the rule made that the original word used for a genus have to
be a noun? In that respect there is a? name 'Viridigigas" but neither green
or giant are nouns as such. But what do I know?

John Grehan
_______________________________________________
Taxacom Mailing List

Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit: https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.ku.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=HSapmiKo99BdgG3GkJbQghee4JaTuGoQl6SXECzpw7o%3D&reserved=0
You can reach the person managing the list at: taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at: https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=bMlpkAsWTw5F46ktqDn%2BZt6vI7QhASG4PSXve0Xzih8%3D&reserved=0

Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 18:38:01 -0300
From: Scott Thomson <scott.thomson321 at gmail.com>
To: Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
Cc: taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
Subject: Re: Taxacom: Taxacom| Genus name question
Message-ID:
        <CADRwqwhbcTJRuLc=1pCFKiDvPdPDOcUuD8UJcP6sGYKRRg1VhQ at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Yes I agree with Stephen here, treated as a noun does not have to be one, I
am no fan of destroying names over some poor grammar, if everything else is
fine with the name it should not matter it's usable.

Cheers Scott

On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 6:32 PM Stephen Thorpe via Taxacom <
taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:

>
> 11.8. Genus-group names
>
> A genus-group name (see also Article 10.3) must be a word of two or more
> letters and must be, or be treated as, a noun in the nominative singular.
> TREATED AS
>     On Saturday, 22 January 2022, 10:11:11 am NZDT, John Grehan via
> Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
>
>  I would be interested to have input on judging the validity of the name
> 'Magnificus' which was proposed by a Chinese worker back in 2000 for a
> genus of Hepialidae. The author made no reference to the basis of the name
> (although the moths are quite nice looking and so perhaps it is an allusion
> to this aspect).
>
> Under current rules, is the name valid? I had a colleague make the
> following comments:
>
> "The problem seems to centre on the use by taxonomists of eighteenth
> century "modern" Latin, as used for learned discourse, all a bit mixed up
> with medieval liturgical Latin from the Roman church.
>
> In these branches of Latin it seems likely that as in classical Latin,
> magnficus is not a noun.
>
> So I can see two "legal" positions, from the ICZN point of view.
>
> Generic names must be nouns. Magnificus is not by any stretch of
> imagination a noun. As a generic name it is therefore invalid.
> Magnificus has appeared in the lit as a generic name. As generic names are
> nouns, this act has by definition converted Magnificus into a noun for
> taxonomic usages.
>
> If this ([2]) sounds a bit stretched, consider that many generic names are
> purely artificial. They were not nouns or anything until they appeared in
> the biological literature. So I could make up a name like Rumblustumblus
> (Rumble us, tumble us). It's hard to maintain that it's not a generic name:
> for biological purposes it's now a noun!
>
> The literature is full of prank names, most of them of course specific.  In
> fact various kinds of pranking go all the way back to Linnaeus)."
>
> I hope (wish) to get sufficient clarity to determine if it is absolutely
> necessary to replace the Magnificus' name or not.
>
> Also, why was the rule made that the original word used for a genus have to
> be a noun? In that respect there is a  name 'Viridigigas" but neither green
> or giant are nouns as such. But what do I know?
>
> John Grehan
> _______________________________________________
> Taxacom Mailing List
>
> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.ku.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=HSapmiKo99BdgG3GkJbQghee4JaTuGoQl6SXECzpw7o%3D&reserved=0
> You can reach the person managing the list at: taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
> The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=bMlpkAsWTw5F46ktqDn%2BZt6vI7QhASG4PSXve0Xzih8%3D&reserved=0
>
> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Taxacom Mailing List
>
> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.ku.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=HSapmiKo99BdgG3GkJbQghee4JaTuGoQl6SXECzpw7o%3D&reserved=0
> You can reach the person managing the list at: taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
> The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=bMlpkAsWTw5F46ktqDn%2BZt6vI7QhASG4PSXve0Xzih8%3D&reserved=0
>
> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.
>

--
Scott Thomson

Centro de Estudos dos Quel?nios da Amaz?nia - CEQUA
Petr?polis, Manaus
State of Amazonas, 69055-010
Brasil

https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.carettochelys.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=Vqvnx%2F1ZGrL0X75vD3JIX%2BRLEN5xrU08Ufawejxuoos%3D&reserved=0
ORCID: https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Forcid.org%2F0000-0003-1279-2722&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=jHFkWPbZn2xTJMj6L%2B%2B48s9YaVcSGQCV02EUy7V5p7Y%3D&reserved=0
Lattes: *https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flattes.cnpq.br%2F0323517916624728*&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=67H3poGFKM5C5c0k3in16oN5ux%2B1pJie6KNzrdB2n0s%3D&reserved=0
<https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwwws.cnpq.br%2Fcvlattesweb%2FPKG_MENU.menu%3Ff_cod%3D1E409F4BF37BFC4AD13FD58CDB7AA5FD%23&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=AugHBOIk7NiYQ1J9jShPrnKq%2FfSqueFU%2BiQHfy5Zf8M%3D&reserved=0>
Skype: Faendalimas
Mobile Phone Brasil: +55 11 98178 7270
Whatsapp: +55 11 98178 7270

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 13:44:10 -0800
From: Douglas Yanega <dyanega at gmail.com>
To: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
Subject: Re: Taxacom: Taxacom| Genus name question
Message-ID: <f67d2414-be6f-3db1-e88e-700acf24ec03 at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

Pretty much literally any combination of characters in the Roman
alphabet can be a valid genus name.

Aa, Aaaba, Aha, Ba, Csiro, Eboo, Ia, Iouea, Ittys, Iyaiyai, Keylimepie,
Nat, Ohenri, Quasi, Sinatra, This, Ua, Wawu, Zappa, and Zyzzyzus are all
valid genus names.

See my page linked below.

Peace

--
Doug Yanega      Dept. of Entomology       Entomology Research Museum
Univ. of California, Riverside, CA 92521-0314     skype: dyanega
phone: (951) 827-4315 (disclaimer: opinions are mine, not UCR's)
              https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ffaculty.ucr.edu%2F~heraty%2Fyanega.html&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=MjBBF14jO7rZyTsrmHVWXCK10erO%2BLejVuGYCpm8RNE%3D&reserved=0
   "There are some enterprises in which a careful disorderliness
         is the true method" - Herman Melville, Moby Dick, Chap. 82

------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 14:51:44 -0700
From: John Bruner <jbruner at ualberta.ca>
To: Scott Thomson <scott.thomson321 at gmail.com>
Cc: taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
Subject: Re: Taxacom: Taxacom| Genus name question
Message-ID:
        <CAE1TnqLSFtFoYMdqhNiWNw-AZiY53T9zeMYCh_XypEeG0tXo8A at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Dear John Grehan:

     I agree with Scott. I would accept *Magnificus. *It is a nominative
singular noun. *Fourth declension *or u-nouns end with
-*us*, or if neuter, *-ua* in the nominative, and *-uum* in the genitive
plural.

On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 2:39 PM Scott Thomson via Taxacom <
taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:

> Yes I agree with Stephen here, treated as a noun does not have to be one, I
> am no fan of destroying names over some poor grammar, if everything else is
> fine with the name it should not matter it's usable.
>
> Cheers Scott
>
> On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 6:32 PM Stephen Thorpe via Taxacom <
> taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
>
> >
> > 11.8. Genus-group names
> >
> > A genus-group name (see also Article 10.3) must be a word of two or more
> > letters and must be, or be treated as, a noun in the nominative singular.
> > TREATED AS
> >     On Saturday, 22 January 2022, 10:11:11 am NZDT, John Grehan via
> > Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
> >
> >  I would be interested to have input on judging the validity of the name
> > 'Magnificus' which was proposed by a Chinese worker back in 2000 for a
> > genus of Hepialidae. The author made no reference to the basis of the
> name
> > (although the moths are quite nice looking and so perhaps it is an
> allusion
> > to this aspect).
> >
> > Under current rules, is the name valid? I had a colleague make the
> > following comments:
> >
> > "The problem seems to centre on the use by taxonomists of eighteenth
> > century "modern" Latin, as used for learned discourse, all a bit mixed up
> > with medieval liturgical Latin from the Roman church.
> >
> > In these branches of Latin it seems likely that as in classical Latin,
> > magnficus is not a noun.
> >
> > So I can see two "legal" positions, from the ICZN point of view.
> >
> > Generic names must be nouns. Magnificus is not by any stretch of
> > imagination a noun. As a generic name it is therefore invalid.
> > Magnificus has appeared in the lit as a generic name. As generic names
> are
> > nouns, this act has by definition converted Magnificus into a noun for
> > taxonomic usages.
> >
> > If this ([2]) sounds a bit stretched, consider that many generic names
> are
> > purely artificial. They were not nouns or anything until they appeared in
> > the biological literature. So I could make up a name like Rumblustumblus
> > (Rumble us, tumble us). It's hard to maintain that it's not a generic
> name:
> > for biological purposes it's now a noun!
> >
> > The literature is full of prank names, most of them of course specific.
> In
> > fact various kinds of pranking go all the way back to Linnaeus)."
> >
> > I hope (wish) to get sufficient clarity to determine if it is absolutely
> > necessary to replace the Magnificus' name or not.
> >
> > Also, why was the rule made that the original word used for a genus have
> to
> > be a noun? In that respect there is a  name 'Viridigigas" but neither
> green
> > or giant are nouns as such. But what do I know?
> >
> > John Grehan
> > _______________________________________________
> > Taxacom Mailing List
> >
> > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> > For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> > https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.ku.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=HSapmiKo99BdgG3GkJbQghee4JaTuGoQl6SXECzpw7o%3D&reserved=0
> > You can reach the person managing the list at:
> taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
> > The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=bMlpkAsWTw5F46ktqDn%2BZt6vI7QhASG4PSXve0Xzih8%3D&reserved=0
> >
> > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Taxacom Mailing List
> >
> > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> > For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> > https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.ku.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=HSapmiKo99BdgG3GkJbQghee4JaTuGoQl6SXECzpw7o%3D&reserved=0
> > You can reach the person managing the list at:
> taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
> > The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=bMlpkAsWTw5F46ktqDn%2BZt6vI7QhASG4PSXve0Xzih8%3D&reserved=0
> >
> > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.
> >
>
>
> --
> Scott Thomson
>
> Centro de Estudos dos Quel?nios da Amaz?nia - CEQUA
> Petr?polis, Manaus
> State of Amazonas, 69055-010
> Brasil
>
>
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.carettochelys.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=Vqvnx%2F1ZGrL0X75vD3JIX%2BRLEN5xrU08Ufawejxuoos%3D&reserved=0
> ORCID:
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Forcid.org%2F0000-0003-1279-2722&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=jHFkWPbZn2xTJMj6L%2B%2B48s9YaVcSGQCV02EUy7V5p7Y%3D&reserved=0
> Lattes: *
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flattes.cnpq.br%2F0323517916624728*&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=67H3poGFKM5C5c0k3in16oN5ux%2B1pJie6KNzrdB2n0s%3D&reserved=0
> <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwwws.cnpq.br%2Fcvlattesweb%2FPKG_MENU.menu%3Ff_cod%3D1E409F4BF37BFC4AD13FD58CDB7AA5FD%23&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=AugHBOIk7NiYQ1J9jShPrnKq%2FfSqueFU%2BiQHfy5Zf8M%3D&reserved=0
> >
> Skype: Faendalimas
> Mobile Phone Brasil: +55 11 98178 7270
> Whatsapp: +55 11 98178 7270
> _______________________________________________
> Taxacom Mailing List
>
> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.ku.edu%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=iC6c1WWX4UF9x%2B%2BTZXVDd%2BIZNxEzBe9FxSNc5aX4Vlw%3D&reserved=0
> You can reach the person managing the list at: taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
> The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=bMlpkAsWTw5F46ktqDn%2BZt6vI7QhASG4PSXve0Xzih8%3D&reserved=0
>
> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.
>

--

        John
*******************************************************
* Mr. John C. Bruner                                  *
* Department of Biological Sciences                   *
* University of Alberta                               *
* Edmonton, Alberta    _______/////____/~~)_____/==== *
* T6G 2E9  CANADA     /_ @  > />...w...w...w.....==== *
* (780) 492-5408      \ ______________,_________ ==== *
* FAX: (780) 492-9234           \>      \>      \==== *
* VIRTUAL FAX: (780) 492-2216                         *
* EMAIL: jbruner at ualberta.ca
<https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwebmail.ualberta.ca%2Fimp%2Fmessage.php%3Fmailbox%3Dsent-mail%26index%3D1363%23&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=FoUQqZswMNO7wahgbnZoAk0en%2F44NZJ4AckudqsISZw%3D&reserved=0>
                        *
* HOME PAGE:https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ualberta.ca%2F~jbruner%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=J3dkYze1Qv4o0hzqppcXGXoMZakxLFgrVdqLrKZuu2A%3D&reserved=0          *
*******************************************************

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 21:58:07 +0000 (UTC)
From: Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
To: Scott Thomson <scott.thomson321 at gmail.com>,  John Bruner
        <jbruner at ualberta.ca>
Cc: taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
Subject: Re: Taxacom: Taxacom| Genus name question
Message-ID: <1307258577.1207353.1642802287379 at mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

 This does illustrate the unfortunate tendency for people to try to rename taxa too glibly (though John Grehan did at least have the good sense to ask for clarification first). Renaming for nomenclatural reasons should only be an absolute last resort when the need for it is 100% clear. Stephen
    On Saturday, 22 January 2022, 10:51:57 am NZDT, John Bruner <jbruner at ualberta.ca> wrote:

 Dear John Grehan:
? ? ?I agree with Scott. I would accept Magnificus. It is a nominative singular noun. Fourth declension or u-nouns end with?-us, or if neuter, -ua in the nominative, and -uum?in the genitive plural.
On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 2:39 PM Scott Thomson via Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:

Yes I agree with Stephen here, treated as a noun does not have to be one, I
am no fan of destroying names over some poor grammar, if everything else is
fine with the name it should not matter it's usable.

Cheers Scott

On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 6:32 PM Stephen Thorpe via Taxacom <
taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:

>
> 11.8. Genus-group names
>
> A genus-group name (see also Article 10.3) must be a word of two or more
> letters and must be, or be treated as, a noun in the nominative singular.
> TREATED AS
>? ? ?On Saturday, 22 January 2022, 10:11:11 am NZDT, John Grehan via
> Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
>
>? I would be interested to have input on judging the validity of the name
> 'Magnificus' which was proposed by a Chinese worker back in 2000 for a
> genus of Hepialidae. The author made no reference to the basis of the name
> (although the moths are quite nice looking and so perhaps it is an allusion
> to this aspect).
>
> Under current rules, is the name valid? I had a colleague make the
> following comments:
>
> "The problem seems to centre on the use by taxonomists of eighteenth
> century "modern" Latin, as used for learned discourse, all a bit mixed up
> with medieval liturgical Latin from the Roman church.
>
> In these branches of Latin it seems likely that as in classical Latin,
> magnficus is not a noun.
>
> So I can see two "legal" positions, from the ICZN point of view.
>
> Generic names must be nouns. Magnificus is not by any stretch of
> imagination a noun. As a generic name it is therefore invalid.
> Magnificus has appeared in the lit as a generic name. As generic names are
> nouns, this act has by definition converted Magnificus into a noun for
> taxonomic usages.
>
> If this ([2]) sounds a bit stretched, consider that many generic names are
> purely artificial. They were not nouns or anything until they appeared in
> the biological literature. So I could make up a name like Rumblustumblus
> (Rumble us, tumble us). It's hard to maintain that it's not a generic name:
> for biological purposes it's now a noun!
>
> The literature is full of prank names, most of them of course specific.? In
> fact various kinds of pranking go all the way back to Linnaeus)."
>
> I hope (wish) to get sufficient clarity to determine if it is absolutely
> necessary to replace the Magnificus' name or not.
>
> Also, why was the rule made that the original word used for a genus have to
> be a noun? In that respect there is a? name 'Viridigigas" but neither green
> or giant are nouns as such. But what do I know?
>
> John Grehan
> _______________________________________________
> Taxacom Mailing List
>
> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.ku.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=HSapmiKo99BdgG3GkJbQghee4JaTuGoQl6SXECzpw7o%3D&reserved=0
> You can reach the person managing the list at: taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
> The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=bMlpkAsWTw5F46ktqDn%2BZt6vI7QhASG4PSXve0Xzih8%3D&reserved=0
>
> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Taxacom Mailing List
>
> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.ku.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=HSapmiKo99BdgG3GkJbQghee4JaTuGoQl6SXECzpw7o%3D&reserved=0
> You can reach the person managing the list at: taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
> The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=bMlpkAsWTw5F46ktqDn%2BZt6vI7QhASG4PSXve0Xzih8%3D&reserved=0
>
> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.
>

--
Scott Thomson

Centro de Estudos dos Quel?nios da Amaz?nia - CEQUA
Petr?polis, Manaus
State of Amazonas, 69055-010
Brasil

https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.carettochelys.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=Vqvnx%2F1ZGrL0X75vD3JIX%2BRLEN5xrU08Ufawejxuoos%3D&reserved=0
ORCID: https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Forcid.org%2F0000-0003-1279-2722&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=jHFkWPbZn2xTJMj6L%2B%2B48s9YaVcSGQCV02EUy7V5p7Y%3D&reserved=0
Lattes: *https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flattes.cnpq.br%2F0323517916624728*&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=67H3poGFKM5C5c0k3in16oN5ux%2B1pJie6KNzrdB2n0s%3D&reserved=0
<https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwwws.cnpq.br%2Fcvlattesweb%2FPKG_MENU.menu%3Ff_cod%3D1E409F4BF37BFC4AD13FD58CDB7AA5FD%23&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=AugHBOIk7NiYQ1J9jShPrnKq%2FfSqueFU%2BiQHfy5Zf8M%3D&reserved=0>
Skype: Faendalimas
Mobile Phone Brasil: +55 11 98178 7270
Whatsapp: +55 11 98178 7270
_______________________________________________
Taxacom Mailing List

Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit: https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.ku.edu%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=iC6c1WWX4UF9x%2B%2BTZXVDd%2BIZNxEzBe9FxSNc5aX4Vlw%3D&reserved=0
You can reach the person managing the list at: taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at: https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=bMlpkAsWTw5F46ktqDn%2BZt6vI7QhASG4PSXve0Xzih8%3D&reserved=0

Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.

--

? ? ? ? John
*******************************************************
* Mr. John C. Bruner ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?*
* Department of Biological Sciences ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? *
* University of Alberta ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? *
* Edmonton, Alberta ? ?_______/////____/~~)_____/==== *
* T6G 2E9? CANADA ? ? /_ @? > />...w...w...w.....==== *
* (780) 492-5408 ? ? ?\ ______________,_________ ==== *
* FAX: (780) 492-9234 ? ? ? ? ? \> ? ? ?\> ? ? ?\==== *
* VIRTUAL FAX: (780) 492-2216 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? *
* EMAIL:?jbruner at ualberta.ca? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? *
* HOME PAGE:https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ualberta.ca%2F~jbruner%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=J3dkYze1Qv4o0hzqppcXGXoMZakxLFgrVdqLrKZuu2A%3D&reserved=0? ? ? ? ? *
*******************************************************

------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 14:59:05 -0700
From: John Bruner <jbruner at ualberta.ca>
To: Scott Thomson <scott.thomson321 at gmail.com>
Cc: taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
Subject: Re: Taxacom: Taxacom| Genus name question
Message-ID:
        <CAE1Tnq+m6uAeHWhHw3rrcgTa5JoT_tOsfLh57=eZh2QJ6_5FYw at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

I am afraid I disagree with my better, Douglas Yanega. The generic name
must be a Latinized nominative singular noun.

On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 2:51 PM John Bruner <jbruner at ualberta.ca> wrote:

> Dear John Grehan:
>
>      I agree with Scott. I would accept *Magnificus. *It is a nominative
> singular noun. *Fourth declension *or u-nouns end with
> -*us*, or if neuter, *-ua* in the nominative, and *-uum* in the genitive
> plural.
>
> On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 2:39 PM Scott Thomson via Taxacom <
> taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
>
>> Yes I agree with Stephen here, treated as a noun does not have to be one,
>> I
>> am no fan of destroying names over some poor grammar, if everything else
>> is
>> fine with the name it should not matter it's usable.
>>
>> Cheers Scott
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 6:32 PM Stephen Thorpe via Taxacom <
>> taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > 11.8. Genus-group names
>> >
>> > A genus-group name (see also Article 10.3) must be a word of two or more
>> > letters and must be, or be treated as, a noun in the nominative
>> singular.
>> > TREATED AS
>> >     On Saturday, 22 January 2022, 10:11:11 am NZDT, John Grehan via
>> > Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
>> >
>> >  I would be interested to have input on judging the validity of the name
>> > 'Magnificus' which was proposed by a Chinese worker back in 2000 for a
>> > genus of Hepialidae. The author made no reference to the basis of the
>> name
>> > (although the moths are quite nice looking and so perhaps it is an
>> allusion
>> > to this aspect).
>> >
>> > Under current rules, is the name valid? I had a colleague make the
>> > following comments:
>> >
>> > "The problem seems to centre on the use by taxonomists of eighteenth
>> > century "modern" Latin, as used for learned discourse, all a bit mixed
>> up
>> > with medieval liturgical Latin from the Roman church.
>> >
>> > In these branches of Latin it seems likely that as in classical Latin,
>> > magnficus is not a noun.
>> >
>> > So I can see two "legal" positions, from the ICZN point of view.
>> >
>> > Generic names must be nouns. Magnificus is not by any stretch of
>> > imagination a noun. As a generic name it is therefore invalid.
>> > Magnificus has appeared in the lit as a generic name. As generic names
>> are
>> > nouns, this act has by definition converted Magnificus into a noun for
>> > taxonomic usages.
>> >
>> > If this ([2]) sounds a bit stretched, consider that many generic names
>> are
>> > purely artificial. They were not nouns or anything until they appeared
>> in
>> > the biological literature. So I could make up a name like Rumblustumblus
>> > (Rumble us, tumble us). It's hard to maintain that it's not a generic
>> name:
>> > for biological purposes it's now a noun!
>> >
>> > The literature is full of prank names, most of them of course
>> specific.  In
>> > fact various kinds of pranking go all the way back to Linnaeus)."
>> >
>> > I hope (wish) to get sufficient clarity to determine if it is absolutely
>> > necessary to replace the Magnificus' name or not.
>> >
>> > Also, why was the rule made that the original word used for a genus
>> have to
>> > be a noun? In that respect there is a  name 'Viridigigas" but neither
>> green
>> > or giant are nouns as such. But what do I know?
>> >
>> > John Grehan
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Taxacom Mailing List
>> >
>> > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
>> > For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
>> > https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.ku.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=HSapmiKo99BdgG3GkJbQghee4JaTuGoQl6SXECzpw7o%3D&reserved=0
>> > You can reach the person managing the list at:
>> taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
>> > The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
>> >
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=bMlpkAsWTw5F46ktqDn%2BZt6vI7QhASG4PSXve0Xzih8%3D&reserved=0
>> >
>> > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years,
>> 1987-2022.
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Taxacom Mailing List
>> >
>> > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
>> > For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
>> > https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.ku.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=HSapmiKo99BdgG3GkJbQghee4JaTuGoQl6SXECzpw7o%3D&reserved=0
>> > You can reach the person managing the list at:
>> taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
>> > The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
>> >
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=bMlpkAsWTw5F46ktqDn%2BZt6vI7QhASG4PSXve0Xzih8%3D&reserved=0
>> >
>> > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years,
>> 1987-2022.
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> Scott Thomson
>>
>> Centro de Estudos dos Quel?nios da Amaz?nia - CEQUA
>> Petr?polis, Manaus
>> State of Amazonas, 69055-010
>> Brasil
>>
>>
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.carettochelys.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=Vqvnx%2F1ZGrL0X75vD3JIX%2BRLEN5xrU08Ufawejxuoos%3D&reserved=0
>> ORCID:
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Forcid.org%2F0000-0003-1279-2722&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=jHFkWPbZn2xTJMj6L%2B%2B48s9YaVcSGQCV02EUy7V5p7Y%3D&reserved=0
>> Lattes: *
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flattes.cnpq.br%2F0323517916624728*&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=67H3poGFKM5C5c0k3in16oN5ux%2B1pJie6KNzrdB2n0s%3D&reserved=0
>> <
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwwws.cnpq.br%2Fcvlattesweb%2FPKG_MENU.menu%3Ff_cod%3D1E409F4BF37BFC4AD13FD58CDB7AA5FD%23&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=AugHBOIk7NiYQ1J9jShPrnKq%2FfSqueFU%2BiQHfy5Zf8M%3D&reserved=0
>> >
>> Skype: Faendalimas
>> Mobile Phone Brasil: +55 11 98178 7270
>> Whatsapp: +55 11 98178 7270
>> _______________________________________________
>> Taxacom Mailing List
>>
>> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
>> For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.ku.edu%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=iC6c1WWX4UF9x%2B%2BTZXVDd%2BIZNxEzBe9FxSNc5aX4Vlw%3D&reserved=0
>> You can reach the person managing the list at: taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
>> The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=bMlpkAsWTw5F46ktqDn%2BZt6vI7QhASG4PSXve0Xzih8%3D&reserved=0
>>
>> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.
>>
>
>
> --
>
>         John
> *******************************************************
> * Mr. John C. Bruner                                  *
> * Department of Biological Sciences                   *
> * University of Alberta                               *
> * Edmonton, Alberta    _______/////____/~~)_____/==== *
> * T6G 2E9  CANADA     /_ @  > />...w...w...w.....==== *
> * (780) 492-5408      \ ______________,_________ ==== *
> * FAX: (780) 492-9234           \>      \>      \==== *
> * VIRTUAL FAX: (780) 492-2216                         *
> * EMAIL: jbruner at ualberta.ca
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwebmail.ualberta.ca%2Fimp%2Fmessage.php%3Fmailbox%3Dsent-mail%26index%3D1363%23&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=FoUQqZswMNO7wahgbnZoAk0en%2F44NZJ4AckudqsISZw%3D&reserved=0>
>                         *
> * HOME PAGE:https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ualberta.ca%2F~jbruner%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=J3dkYze1Qv4o0hzqppcXGXoMZakxLFgrVdqLrKZuu2A%3D&reserved=0          *
> *******************************************************
>

--

        John
*******************************************************
* Mr. John C. Bruner                                  *
* Department of Biological Sciences                   *
* University of Alberta                               *
* Edmonton, Alberta    _______/////____/~~)_____/==== *
* T6G 2E9  CANADA     /_ @  > />...w...w...w.....==== *
* (780) 492-5408      \ ______________,_________ ==== *
* FAX: (780) 492-9234           \>      \>      \==== *
* VIRTUAL FAX: (780) 492-2216                         *
* EMAIL: jbruner at ualberta.ca
<https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwebmail.ualberta.ca%2Fimp%2Fmessage.php%3Fmailbox%3Dsent-mail%26index%3D1363%23&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=FoUQqZswMNO7wahgbnZoAk0en%2F44NZJ4AckudqsISZw%3D&reserved=0>
                        *
* HOME PAGE:https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ualberta.ca%2F~jbruner%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=J3dkYze1Qv4o0hzqppcXGXoMZakxLFgrVdqLrKZuu2A%3D&reserved=0          *
*******************************************************

------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 22:13:05 +0000 (UTC)
From: Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
To: Scott Thomson <scott.thomson321 at gmail.com>,  John Bruner
        <jbruner at ualberta.ca>
Cc: taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
Subject: Re: Taxacom: Taxacom| Genus name question
Message-ID: <30180482.1199621.1642803185559 at mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

 Or treated as one! Read the Code!
    On Saturday, 22 January 2022, 10:59:18 am NZDT, John Bruner <jbruner at ualberta.ca> wrote:

 I am afraid I disagree with my better, Douglas Yanega. The generic name must be a Latinized nominative singular?noun.?
On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 2:51 PM John Bruner <jbruner at ualberta.ca> wrote:

Dear John Grehan:
? ? ?I agree with Scott. I would accept Magnificus. It is a nominative singular noun. Fourth declension or u-nouns end with?-us, or if neuter, -ua in the nominative, and -uum?in the genitive plural.
On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 2:39 PM Scott Thomson via Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:

Yes I agree with Stephen here, treated as a noun does not have to be one, I
am no fan of destroying names over some poor grammar, if everything else is
fine with the name it should not matter it's usable.

Cheers Scott

On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 6:32 PM Stephen Thorpe via Taxacom <
taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:

>
> 11.8. Genus-group names
>
> A genus-group name (see also Article 10.3) must be a word of two or more
> letters and must be, or be treated as, a noun in the nominative singular.
> TREATED AS
>? ? ?On Saturday, 22 January 2022, 10:11:11 am NZDT, John Grehan via
> Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
>
>? I would be interested to have input on judging the validity of the name
> 'Magnificus' which was proposed by a Chinese worker back in 2000 for a
> genus of Hepialidae. The author made no reference to the basis of the name
> (although the moths are quite nice looking and so perhaps it is an allusion
> to this aspect).
>
> Under current rules, is the name valid? I had a colleague make the
> following comments:
>
> "The problem seems to centre on the use by taxonomists of eighteenth
> century "modern" Latin, as used for learned discourse, all a bit mixed up
> with medieval liturgical Latin from the Roman church.
>
> In these branches of Latin it seems likely that as in classical Latin,
> magnficus is not a noun.
>
> So I can see two "legal" positions, from the ICZN point of view.
>
> Generic names must be nouns. Magnificus is not by any stretch of
> imagination a noun. As a generic name it is therefore invalid.
> Magnificus has appeared in the lit as a generic name. As generic names are
> nouns, this act has by definition converted Magnificus into a noun for
> taxonomic usages.
>
> If this ([2]) sounds a bit stretched, consider that many generic names are
> purely artificial. They were not nouns or anything until they appeared in
> the biological literature. So I could make up a name like Rumblustumblus
> (Rumble us, tumble us). It's hard to maintain that it's not a generic name:
> for biological purposes it's now a noun!
>
> The literature is full of prank names, most of them of course specific.? In
> fact various kinds of pranking go all the way back to Linnaeus)."
>
> I hope (wish) to get sufficient clarity to determine if it is absolutely
> necessary to replace the Magnificus' name or not.
>
> Also, why was the rule made that the original word used for a genus have to
> be a noun? In that respect there is a? name 'Viridigigas" but neither green
> or giant are nouns as such. But what do I know?
>
> John Grehan
> _______________________________________________
> Taxacom Mailing List
>
> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.ku.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=HSapmiKo99BdgG3GkJbQghee4JaTuGoQl6SXECzpw7o%3D&reserved=0
> You can reach the person managing the list at: taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
> The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=bMlpkAsWTw5F46ktqDn%2BZt6vI7QhASG4PSXve0Xzih8%3D&reserved=0
>
> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Taxacom Mailing List
>
> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.ku.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=HSapmiKo99BdgG3GkJbQghee4JaTuGoQl6SXECzpw7o%3D&reserved=0
> You can reach the person managing the list at: taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
> The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=bMlpkAsWTw5F46ktqDn%2BZt6vI7QhASG4PSXve0Xzih8%3D&reserved=0
>
> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.
>

--
Scott Thomson

Centro de Estudos dos Quel?nios da Amaz?nia - CEQUA
Petr?polis, Manaus
State of Amazonas, 69055-010
Brasil

https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.carettochelys.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=Vqvnx%2F1ZGrL0X75vD3JIX%2BRLEN5xrU08Ufawejxuoos%3D&reserved=0
ORCID: https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Forcid.org%2F0000-0003-1279-2722&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=jHFkWPbZn2xTJMj6L%2B%2B48s9YaVcSGQCV02EUy7V5p7Y%3D&reserved=0
Lattes: *https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flattes.cnpq.br%2F0323517916624728*&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=67H3poGFKM5C5c0k3in16oN5ux%2B1pJie6KNzrdB2n0s%3D&reserved=0
<https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwwws.cnpq.br%2Fcvlattesweb%2FPKG_MENU.menu%3Ff_cod%3D1E409F4BF37BFC4AD13FD58CDB7AA5FD%23&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=AugHBOIk7NiYQ1J9jShPrnKq%2FfSqueFU%2BiQHfy5Zf8M%3D&reserved=0>
Skype: Faendalimas
Mobile Phone Brasil: +55 11 98178 7270
Whatsapp: +55 11 98178 7270
_______________________________________________
Taxacom Mailing List

Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit: https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.ku.edu%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=iC6c1WWX4UF9x%2B%2BTZXVDd%2BIZNxEzBe9FxSNc5aX4Vlw%3D&reserved=0
You can reach the person managing the list at: taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at: https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=bMlpkAsWTw5F46ktqDn%2BZt6vI7QhASG4PSXve0Xzih8%3D&reserved=0

Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.

--

? ? ? ? John
*******************************************************
* Mr. John C. Bruner ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?*
* Department of Biological Sciences ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? *
* University of Alberta ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? *
* Edmonton, Alberta ? ?_______/////____/~~)_____/==== *
* T6G 2E9? CANADA ? ? /_ @? > />...w...w...w.....==== *
* (780) 492-5408 ? ? ?\ ______________,_________ ==== *
* FAX: (780) 492-9234 ? ? ? ? ? \> ? ? ?\> ? ? ?\==== *
* VIRTUAL FAX: (780) 492-2216 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? *
* EMAIL:?jbruner at ualberta.ca? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? *
* HOME PAGE:https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ualberta.ca%2F~jbruner%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=J3dkYze1Qv4o0hzqppcXGXoMZakxLFgrVdqLrKZuu2A%3D&reserved=0? ? ? ? ? *
*******************************************************

--

? ? ? ? John
*******************************************************
* Mr. John C. Bruner ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?*
* Department of Biological Sciences ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? *
* University of Alberta ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? *
* Edmonton, Alberta ? ?_______/////____/~~)_____/==== *
* T6G 2E9? CANADA ? ? /_ @? > />...w...w...w.....==== *
* (780) 492-5408 ? ? ?\ ______________,_________ ==== *
* FAX: (780) 492-9234 ? ? ? ? ? \> ? ? ?\> ? ? ?\==== *
* VIRTUAL FAX: (780) 492-2216 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? *
* EMAIL:?jbruner at ualberta.ca? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? *
* HOME PAGE:https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ualberta.ca%2F~jbruner%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=J3dkYze1Qv4o0hzqppcXGXoMZakxLFgrVdqLrKZuu2A%3D&reserved=0? ? ? ? ? *
*******************************************************

------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 15:15:26 -0700
From: John Bruner <jbruner at ualberta.ca>
To: Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
Cc: taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
Subject: Re: Taxacom: Taxacom| Genus name question
Message-ID:
        <CAE1TnqLthA1OnjANjEmuLO73+mLFtXyaRWNg8bp42jOE1PWFqg at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Yes, I agree. An example in Ichthyology, the AFS/ASIH Fish Names Committee
incorrectly accepted the German word Sander as the senior synonym for the
genus *Stizostedion *(Walleye, Sauger, and European Pikeperch).  *Stizostedion
*had been correctly in use for 183 years. To make Sander (an alternate
German spelling of Zander *Stizostedion lucioperca*), a Latinized
nominative singular noun, the correctly formed Latin noun would be *Sandrus*.
In 1828, 8 years after the correctly formed *Stizostedion *was published in
1820 by Rafinesque, Stark (1828) published *Sandrus. *Sander had been
published as a common name prior to 1820 (Bloch, 1785; Fischer, 1791, and
Okenfuss (as Oken, 1817) but not as a Latinized name.

On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 2:58 PM Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
wrote:

> This does illustrate the unfortunate tendency for people to try to rename
> taxa too glibly (though John Grehan did at least have the good sense to ask
> for clarification first). Renaming for nomenclatural reasons should only be
> an absolute last resort when the need for it is 100% clear. Stephen
>
> On Saturday, 22 January 2022, 10:51:57 am NZDT, John Bruner <
> jbruner at ualberta.ca> wrote:
>
>
> Dear John Grehan:
>
>      I agree with Scott. I would accept *Magnificus. *It is a nominative
> singular noun. *Fourth declension *or u-nouns end with
> -*us*, or if neuter, *-ua* in the nominative, and *-uum* in the genitive
> plural.
>
> On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 2:39 PM Scott Thomson via Taxacom <
> taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
>
> Yes I agree with Stephen here, treated as a noun does not have to be one, I
> am no fan of destroying names over some poor grammar, if everything else is
> fine with the name it should not matter it's usable.
>
> Cheers Scott
>
> On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 6:32 PM Stephen Thorpe via Taxacom <
> taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
>
> >
> > 11.8. Genus-group names
> >
> > A genus-group name (see also Article 10.3) must be a word of two or more
> > letters and must be, or be treated as, a noun in the nominative singular.
> > TREATED AS
> >     On Saturday, 22 January 2022, 10:11:11 am NZDT, John Grehan via
> > Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
> >
> >  I would be interested to have input on judging the validity of the name
> > 'Magnificus' which was proposed by a Chinese worker back in 2000 for a
> > genus of Hepialidae. The author made no reference to the basis of the
> name
> > (although the moths are quite nice looking and so perhaps it is an
> allusion
> > to this aspect).
> >
> > Under current rules, is the name valid? I had a colleague make the
> > following comments:
> >
> > "The problem seems to centre on the use by taxonomists of eighteenth
> > century "modern" Latin, as used for learned discourse, all a bit mixed up
> > with medieval liturgical Latin from the Roman church.
> >
> > In these branches of Latin it seems likely that as in classical Latin,
> > magnficus is not a noun.
> >
> > So I can see two "legal" positions, from the ICZN point of view.
> >
> > Generic names must be nouns. Magnificus is not by any stretch of
> > imagination a noun. As a generic name it is therefore invalid.
> > Magnificus has appeared in the lit as a generic name. As generic names
> are
> > nouns, this act has by definition converted Magnificus into a noun for
> > taxonomic usages.
> >
> > If this ([2]) sounds a bit stretched, consider that many generic names
> are
> > purely artificial. They were not nouns or anything until they appeared in
> > the biological literature. So I could make up a name like Rumblustumblus
> > (Rumble us, tumble us). It's hard to maintain that it's not a generic
> name:
> > for biological purposes it's now a noun!
> >
> > The literature is full of prank names, most of them of course specific.
> In
> > fact various kinds of pranking go all the way back to Linnaeus)."
> >
> > I hope (wish) to get sufficient clarity to determine if it is absolutely
> > necessary to replace the Magnificus' name or not.
> >
> > Also, why was the rule made that the original word used for a genus have
> to
> > be a noun? In that respect there is a  name 'Viridigigas" but neither
> green
> > or giant are nouns as such. But what do I know?
> >
> > John Grehan
> > _______________________________________________
> > Taxacom Mailing List
> >
> > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> > For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> > https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.ku.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=HSapmiKo99BdgG3GkJbQghee4JaTuGoQl6SXECzpw7o%3D&reserved=0
> > You can reach the person managing the list at:
> taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
> > The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=bMlpkAsWTw5F46ktqDn%2BZt6vI7QhASG4PSXve0Xzih8%3D&reserved=0
> >
> > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Taxacom Mailing List
> >
> > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> > For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> > https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.ku.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=HSapmiKo99BdgG3GkJbQghee4JaTuGoQl6SXECzpw7o%3D&reserved=0
> > You can reach the person managing the list at:
> taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
> > The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=bMlpkAsWTw5F46ktqDn%2BZt6vI7QhASG4PSXve0Xzih8%3D&reserved=0
> >
> > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.
> >
>
>
> --
> Scott Thomson
>
> Centro de Estudos dos Quel?nios da Amaz?nia - CEQUA
> Petr?polis, Manaus
> State of Amazonas, 69055-010
> Brasil
>
>
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.carettochelys.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=Vqvnx%2F1ZGrL0X75vD3JIX%2BRLEN5xrU08Ufawejxuoos%3D&reserved=0
> ORCID:
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Forcid.org%2F0000-0003-1279-2722&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=jHFkWPbZn2xTJMj6L%2B%2B48s9YaVcSGQCV02EUy7V5p7Y%3D&reserved=0
> Lattes: *
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flattes.cnpq.br%2F0323517916624728*&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=67H3poGFKM5C5c0k3in16oN5ux%2B1pJie6KNzrdB2n0s%3D&reserved=0
> <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwwws.cnpq.br%2Fcvlattesweb%2FPKG_MENU.menu%3Ff_cod%3D1E409F4BF37BFC4AD13FD58CDB7AA5FD%23&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=AugHBOIk7NiYQ1J9jShPrnKq%2FfSqueFU%2BiQHfy5Zf8M%3D&reserved=0
> >
> Skype: Faendalimas
> Mobile Phone Brasil: +55 11 98178 7270
> Whatsapp: +55 11 98178 7270
> _______________________________________________
> Taxacom Mailing List
>
> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.ku.edu%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=iC6c1WWX4UF9x%2B%2BTZXVDd%2BIZNxEzBe9FxSNc5aX4Vlw%3D&reserved=0
> You can reach the person managing the list at: taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
> The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=bMlpkAsWTw5F46ktqDn%2BZt6vI7QhASG4PSXve0Xzih8%3D&reserved=0
>
> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.
>
>
>
> --
>
>         John
>
> *******************************************************
> * Mr. John C. Bruner                                  *
> * Department of Biological Sciences                   *
> * University of Alberta                               *
> * Edmonton, Alberta    _______/////____/~~)_____/==== *
> * T6G 2E9  CANADA     /_ @  > />...w...w...w.....==== *
> * (780) 492-5408      \ ______________,_________ ==== *
> * FAX: (780) 492-9234           \>      \>      \==== *
> * VIRTUAL FAX: (780) 492-2216                         *
> * EMAIL: jbruner at ualberta.ca
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwebmail.ualberta.ca%2Fimp%2Fmessage.php%3Fmailbox%3Dsent-mail%26index%3D1363%23&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=FoUQqZswMNO7wahgbnZoAk0en%2F44NZJ4AckudqsISZw%3D&reserved=0>
>                         *
> * HOME PAGE:https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ualberta.ca%2F~jbruner%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=J3dkYze1Qv4o0hzqppcXGXoMZakxLFgrVdqLrKZuu2A%3D&reserved=0
>           *
> *******************************************************
>
>

--

        John
*******************************************************
* Mr. John C. Bruner                                  *
* Department of Biological Sciences                   *
* University of Alberta                               *
* Edmonton, Alberta    _______/////____/~~)_____/==== *
* T6G 2E9  CANADA     /_ @  > />...w...w...w.....==== *
* (780) 492-5408      \ ______________,_________ ==== *
* FAX: (780) 492-9234           \>      \>      \==== *
* VIRTUAL FAX: (780) 492-2216                         *
* EMAIL: jbruner at ualberta.ca
<https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwebmail.ualberta.ca%2Fimp%2Fmessage.php%3Fmailbox%3Dsent-mail%26index%3D1363%23&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=FoUQqZswMNO7wahgbnZoAk0en%2F44NZJ4AckudqsISZw%3D&reserved=0>
                        *
* HOME PAGE:https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ualberta.ca%2F~jbruner%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=J3dkYze1Qv4o0hzqppcXGXoMZakxLFgrVdqLrKZuu2A%3D&reserved=0          *
*******************************************************

------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 22:29:30 +0000 (UTC)
From: Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
To: John Bruner <jbruner at ualberta.ca>
Cc: taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
Subject: Re: Taxacom: Taxacom| Genus name question
Message-ID: <1941432866.1212801.1642804170817 at mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

 It is a bit unclear what exactly you are agreeing with, but to be available, a word has to have been clearly intended as a generic name, rather than as a common name or descriptive adjective per se
    On Saturday, 22 January 2022, 11:15:39 am NZDT, John Bruner <jbruner at ualberta.ca> wrote:

 Yes, I agree. An example in Ichthyology, the AFS/ASIH Fish Names Committee incorrectly accepted the German word Sander as the senior synonym for the genus Stizostedion (Walleye, Sauger, and European Pikeperch). ?Stizostedion had been correctly in use for 183 years. To make Sander (an alternate German spelling of Zander Stizostedion lucioperca), a Latinized nominative singular noun, the correctly formed Latin noun would be Sandrus. In 1828, 8 years after the correctly formed?Stizostedion was published in 1820 by Rafinesque, Stark (1828) published Sandrus. Sander had been published as a common name prior to 1820 (Bloch, 1785; Fischer, 1791, and Okenfuss (as Oken, 1817) but not as a Latinized name.?

On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 2:58 PM Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz> wrote:

 This does illustrate the unfortunate tendency for people to try to rename taxa too glibly (though John Grehan did at least have the good sense to ask for clarification first). Renaming for nomenclatural reasons should only be an absolute last resort when the need for it is 100% clear. Stephen
    On Saturday, 22 January 2022, 10:51:57 am NZDT, John Bruner <jbruner at ualberta.ca> wrote:

 Dear John Grehan:
? ? ?I agree with Scott. I would accept Magnificus. It is a nominative singular noun. Fourth declension or u-nouns end with?-us, or if neuter, -ua in the nominative, and -uum?in the genitive plural.
On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 2:39 PM Scott Thomson via Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:

Yes I agree with Stephen here, treated as a noun does not have to be one, I
am no fan of destroying names over some poor grammar, if everything else is
fine with the name it should not matter it's usable.

Cheers Scott

On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 6:32 PM Stephen Thorpe via Taxacom <
taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:

>
> 11.8. Genus-group names
>
> A genus-group name (see also Article 10.3) must be a word of two or more
> letters and must be, or be treated as, a noun in the nominative singular.
> TREATED AS
>? ? ?On Saturday, 22 January 2022, 10:11:11 am NZDT, John Grehan via
> Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
>
>? I would be interested to have input on judging the validity of the name
> 'Magnificus' which was proposed by a Chinese worker back in 2000 for a
> genus of Hepialidae. The author made no reference to the basis of the name
> (although the moths are quite nice looking and so perhaps it is an allusion
> to this aspect).
>
> Under current rules, is the name valid? I had a colleague make the
> following comments:
>
> "The problem seems to centre on the use by taxonomists of eighteenth
> century "modern" Latin, as used for learned discourse, all a bit mixed up
> with medieval liturgical Latin from the Roman church.
>
> In these branches of Latin it seems likely that as in classical Latin,
> magnficus is not a noun.
>
> So I can see two "legal" positions, from the ICZN point of view.
>
> Generic names must be nouns. Magnificus is not by any stretch of
> imagination a noun. As a generic name it is therefore invalid.
> Magnificus has appeared in the lit as a generic name. As generic names are
> nouns, this act has by definition converted Magnificus into a noun for
> taxonomic usages.
>
> If this ([2]) sounds a bit stretched, consider that many generic names are
> purely artificial. They were not nouns or anything until they appeared in
> the biological literature. So I could make up a name like Rumblustumblus
> (Rumble us, tumble us). It's hard to maintain that it's not a generic name:
> for biological purposes it's now a noun!
>
> The literature is full of prank names, most of them of course specific.? In
> fact various kinds of pranking go all the way back to Linnaeus)."
>
> I hope (wish) to get sufficient clarity to determine if it is absolutely
> necessary to replace the Magnificus' name or not.
>
> Also, why was the rule made that the original word used for a genus have to
> be a noun? In that respect there is a? name 'Viridigigas" but neither green
> or giant are nouns as such. But what do I know?
>
> John Grehan
> _______________________________________________
> Taxacom Mailing List
>
> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.ku.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=HSapmiKo99BdgG3GkJbQghee4JaTuGoQl6SXECzpw7o%3D&reserved=0
> You can reach the person managing the list at: taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
> The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=bMlpkAsWTw5F46ktqDn%2BZt6vI7QhASG4PSXve0Xzih8%3D&reserved=0
>
> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Taxacom Mailing List
>
> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.ku.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=HSapmiKo99BdgG3GkJbQghee4JaTuGoQl6SXECzpw7o%3D&reserved=0
> You can reach the person managing the list at: taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
> The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=bMlpkAsWTw5F46ktqDn%2BZt6vI7QhASG4PSXve0Xzih8%3D&reserved=0
>
> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.
>

--
Scott Thomson

Centro de Estudos dos Quel?nios da Amaz?nia - CEQUA
Petr?polis, Manaus
State of Amazonas, 69055-010
Brasil

https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.carettochelys.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=Vqvnx%2F1ZGrL0X75vD3JIX%2BRLEN5xrU08Ufawejxuoos%3D&reserved=0
ORCID: https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Forcid.org%2F0000-0003-1279-2722&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=jHFkWPbZn2xTJMj6L%2B%2B48s9YaVcSGQCV02EUy7V5p7Y%3D&reserved=0
Lattes: *https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flattes.cnpq.br%2F0323517916624728*&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=67H3poGFKM5C5c0k3in16oN5ux%2B1pJie6KNzrdB2n0s%3D&reserved=0
<https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwwws.cnpq.br%2Fcvlattesweb%2FPKG_MENU.menu%3Ff_cod%3D1E409F4BF37BFC4AD13FD58CDB7AA5FD%23&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=AugHBOIk7NiYQ1J9jShPrnKq%2FfSqueFU%2BiQHfy5Zf8M%3D&reserved=0>
Skype: Faendalimas
Mobile Phone Brasil: +55 11 98178 7270
Whatsapp: +55 11 98178 7270
_______________________________________________
Taxacom Mailing List

Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit: https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.ku.edu%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=iC6c1WWX4UF9x%2B%2BTZXVDd%2BIZNxEzBe9FxSNc5aX4Vlw%3D&reserved=0
You can reach the person managing the list at: taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at: https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=bMlpkAsWTw5F46ktqDn%2BZt6vI7QhASG4PSXve0Xzih8%3D&reserved=0

Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.

--

? ? ? ? John
*******************************************************
* Mr. John C. Bruner ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?*
* Department of Biological Sciences ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? *
* University of Alberta ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? *
* Edmonton, Alberta ? ?_______/////____/~~)_____/==== *
* T6G 2E9? CANADA ? ? /_ @? > />...w...w...w.....==== *
* (780) 492-5408 ? ? ?\ ______________,_________ ==== *
* FAX: (780) 492-9234 ? ? ? ? ? \> ? ? ?\> ? ? ?\==== *
* VIRTUAL FAX: (780) 492-2216 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? *
* EMAIL:?jbruner at ualberta.ca? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? *
* HOME PAGE:https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ualberta.ca%2F~jbruner%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=J3dkYze1Qv4o0hzqppcXGXoMZakxLFgrVdqLrKZuu2A%3D&reserved=0? ? ? ? ? *
*******************************************************

--

? ? ? ? John
*******************************************************
* Mr. John C. Bruner ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?*
* Department of Biological Sciences ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? *
* University of Alberta ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? *
* Edmonton, Alberta ? ?_______/////____/~~)_____/==== *
* T6G 2E9? CANADA ? ? /_ @? > />...w...w...w.....==== *
* (780) 492-5408 ? ? ?\ ______________,_________ ==== *
* FAX: (780) 492-9234 ? ? ? ? ? \> ? ? ?\> ? ? ?\==== *
* VIRTUAL FAX: (780) 492-2216 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? *
* EMAIL:?jbruner at ualberta.ca? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? *
* HOME PAGE:https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ualberta.ca%2F~jbruner%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=J3dkYze1Qv4o0hzqppcXGXoMZakxLFgrVdqLrKZuu2A%3D&reserved=0? ? ? ? ? *
*******************************************************

------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 19:00:56 -0700
From: John Bruner <jbruner at ualberta.ca>
To: Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
Cc: taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
Subject: Re: Taxacom: Taxacom| Genus name question
Message-ID:
        <CAE1TnqJ0K8c4Y2i6rcd5Gqgbz8uJfnAhzat6y1=JsY3tHFMC2w at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Wrong!  It must be a Latinized nominative singular noun. Lorenz Okenfuss,
who published under the name Oken, published an Encyclopedia in 1816 in two
parts which was declared off limits in Opinion 417 for taxonomic purposes
because of his use of common names as scientific names. You can't use any
name you feel like as a generic name.

*Hemming, F. 1956*. Opinion 417. Rejection for nomenclatorial purposes of
volume 3 (Zoologie) of the work by Lorenz Oken entitled Okens Lehrbuch der
Naturgeschichte published in 1815? 1816. Opinions and declarations rendered
by the International Commission on Zoological Nomenclature 14(Part 1):1?42.

On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 3:29 PM Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
wrote:

> It is a bit unclear what exactly you are agreeing with, but to be
> available, a word has to have been clearly intended as a generic name,
> rather than as a common name or descriptive adjective per se
>
> On Saturday, 22 January 2022, 11:15:39 am NZDT, John Bruner <
> jbruner at ualberta.ca> wrote:
>
>
> Yes, I agree. An example in Ichthyology, the AFS/ASIH Fish Names Committee
> incorrectly accepted the German word Sander as the senior synonym for the
> genus *Stizostedion *(Walleye, Sauger, and European Pikeperch).  *Stizostedion
> *had been correctly in use for 183 years. To make Sander (an alternate
> German spelling of Zander *Stizostedion lucioperca*), a Latinized
> nominative singular noun, the correctly formed Latin noun would be
> *Sandrus*. In 1828, 8 years after the correctly formed *Stizostedion *was
> published in 1820 by Rafinesque, Stark (1828) published *Sandrus. *Sander
> had been published as a common name prior to 1820 (Bloch, 1785; Fischer,
> 1791, and Okenfuss (as Oken, 1817) but not as a Latinized name.
>
> On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 2:58 PM Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
> wrote:
>
> This does illustrate the unfortunate tendency for people to try to rename
> taxa too glibly (though John Grehan did at least have the good sense to ask
> for clarification first). Renaming for nomenclatural reasons should only be
> an absolute last resort when the need for it is 100% clear. Stephen
>
> On Saturday, 22 January 2022, 10:51:57 am NZDT, John Bruner <
> jbruner at ualberta.ca> wrote:
>
>
> Dear John Grehan:
>
>      I agree with Scott. I would accept *Magnificus. *It is a nominative
> singular noun. *Fourth declension *or u-nouns end with
> -*us*, or if neuter, *-ua* in the nominative, and *-uum* in the genitive
> plural.
>
> On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 2:39 PM Scott Thomson via Taxacom <
> taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
>
> Yes I agree with Stephen here, treated as a noun does not have to be one, I
> am no fan of destroying names over some poor grammar, if everything else is
> fine with the name it should not matter it's usable.
>
> Cheers Scott
>
> On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 6:32 PM Stephen Thorpe via Taxacom <
> taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
>
> >
> > 11.8. Genus-group names
> >
> > A genus-group name (see also Article 10.3) must be a word of two or more
> > letters and must be, or be treated as, a noun in the nominative singular.
> > TREATED AS
> >     On Saturday, 22 January 2022, 10:11:11 am NZDT, John Grehan via
> > Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
> >
> >  I would be interested to have input on judging the validity of the name
> > 'Magnificus' which was proposed by a Chinese worker back in 2000 for a
> > genus of Hepialidae. The author made no reference to the basis of the
> name
> > (although the moths are quite nice looking and so perhaps it is an
> allusion
> > to this aspect).
> >
> > Under current rules, is the name valid? I had a colleague make the
> > following comments:
> >
> > "The problem seems to centre on the use by taxonomists of eighteenth
> > century "modern" Latin, as used for learned discourse, all a bit mixed up
> > with medieval liturgical Latin from the Roman church.
> >
> > In these branches of Latin it seems likely that as in classical Latin,
> > magnficus is not a noun.
> >
> > So I can see two "legal" positions, from the ICZN point of view.
> >
> > Generic names must be nouns. Magnificus is not by any stretch of
> > imagination a noun. As a generic name it is therefore invalid.
> > Magnificus has appeared in the lit as a generic name. As generic names
> are
> > nouns, this act has by definition converted Magnificus into a noun for
> > taxonomic usages.
> >
> > If this ([2]) sounds a bit stretched, consider that many generic names
> are
> > purely artificial. They were not nouns or anything until they appeared in
> > the biological literature. So I could make up a name like Rumblustumblus
> > (Rumble us, tumble us). It's hard to maintain that it's not a generic
> name:
> > for biological purposes it's now a noun!
> >
> > The literature is full of prank names, most of them of course specific.
> In
> > fact various kinds of pranking go all the way back to Linnaeus)."
> >
> > I hope (wish) to get sufficient clarity to determine if it is absolutely
> > necessary to replace the Magnificus' name or not.
> >
> > Also, why was the rule made that the original word used for a genus have
> to
> > be a noun? In that respect there is a  name 'Viridigigas" but neither
> green
> > or giant are nouns as such. But what do I know?
> >
> > John Grehan
> > _______________________________________________
> > Taxacom Mailing List
> >
> > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> > For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> > https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.ku.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=HSapmiKo99BdgG3GkJbQghee4JaTuGoQl6SXECzpw7o%3D&reserved=0
> > You can reach the person managing the list at:
> taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
> > The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=bMlpkAsWTw5F46ktqDn%2BZt6vI7QhASG4PSXve0Xzih8%3D&reserved=0
> >
> > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Taxacom Mailing List
> >
> > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> > For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> > https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.ku.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=HSapmiKo99BdgG3GkJbQghee4JaTuGoQl6SXECzpw7o%3D&reserved=0
> > You can reach the person managing the list at:
> taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
> > The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=bMlpkAsWTw5F46ktqDn%2BZt6vI7QhASG4PSXve0Xzih8%3D&reserved=0
> >
> > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.
> >
>
>
> --
> Scott Thomson
>
> Centro de Estudos dos Quel?nios da Amaz?nia - CEQUA
> Petr?polis, Manaus
> State of Amazonas, 69055-010
> Brasil
>
>
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.carettochelys.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=Vqvnx%2F1ZGrL0X75vD3JIX%2BRLEN5xrU08Ufawejxuoos%3D&reserved=0
> ORCID:
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Forcid.org%2F0000-0003-1279-2722&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=jHFkWPbZn2xTJMj6L%2B%2B48s9YaVcSGQCV02EUy7V5p7Y%3D&reserved=0
> Lattes: *
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flattes.cnpq.br%2F0323517916624728*&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=67H3poGFKM5C5c0k3in16oN5ux%2B1pJie6KNzrdB2n0s%3D&reserved=0
> <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwwws.cnpq.br%2Fcvlattesweb%2FPKG_MENU.menu%3Ff_cod%3D1E409F4BF37BFC4AD13FD58CDB7AA5FD%23&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=AugHBOIk7NiYQ1J9jShPrnKq%2FfSqueFU%2BiQHfy5Zf8M%3D&reserved=0
> >
> Skype: Faendalimas
> Mobile Phone Brasil: +55 11 98178 7270
> Whatsapp: +55 11 98178 7270
> _______________________________________________
> Taxacom Mailing List
>
> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.ku.edu%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=iC6c1WWX4UF9x%2B%2BTZXVDd%2BIZNxEzBe9FxSNc5aX4Vlw%3D&reserved=0
> You can reach the person managing the list at: taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
> The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=bMlpkAsWTw5F46ktqDn%2BZt6vI7QhASG4PSXve0Xzih8%3D&reserved=0
>
> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.
>
>
>
> --
>
>         John
>
> *******************************************************
> * Mr. John C. Bruner                                  *
> * Department of Biological Sciences                   *
> * University of Alberta                               *
> * Edmonton, Alberta    _______/////____/~~)_____/==== *
> * T6G 2E9  CANADA     /_ @  > />...w...w...w.....==== *
> * (780) 492-5408      \ ______________,_________ ==== *
> * FAX: (780) 492-9234           \>      \>      \==== *
> * VIRTUAL FAX: (780) 492-2216                         *
> * EMAIL: jbruner at ualberta.ca
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwebmail.ualberta.ca%2Fimp%2Fmessage.php%3Fmailbox%3Dsent-mail%26index%3D1363%23&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=FoUQqZswMNO7wahgbnZoAk0en%2F44NZJ4AckudqsISZw%3D&reserved=0>
>                         *
> * HOME PAGE:https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ualberta.ca%2F~jbruner%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=J3dkYze1Qv4o0hzqppcXGXoMZakxLFgrVdqLrKZuu2A%3D&reserved=0
>           *
> *******************************************************
>
>
>
> --
>
>         John
> *******************************************************
> * Mr. John C. Bruner                                  *
> * Department of Biological Sciences                   *
> * University of Alberta                               *
> * Edmonton, Alberta    _______/////____/~~)_____/==== *
> * T6G 2E9  CANADA     /_ @  > />...w...w...w.....==== *
> * (780) 492-5408      \ ______________,_________ ==== *
> * FAX: (780) 492-9234           \>      \>      \==== *
> * VIRTUAL FAX: (780) 492-2216                         *
> * EMAIL: jbruner at ualberta.ca
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwebmail.ualberta.ca%2Fimp%2Fmessage.php%3Fmailbox%3Dsent-mail%26index%3D1363%23&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=FoUQqZswMNO7wahgbnZoAk0en%2F44NZJ4AckudqsISZw%3D&reserved=0>
>                         *
> * HOME PAGE:https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ualberta.ca%2F~jbruner%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=J3dkYze1Qv4o0hzqppcXGXoMZakxLFgrVdqLrKZuu2A%3D&reserved=0          *
> *******************************************************
>

--

        John
*******************************************************
* Mr. John C. Bruner                                  *
* Department of Biological Sciences                   *
* University of Alberta                               *
* Edmonton, Alberta    _______/////____/~~)_____/==== *
* T6G 2E9  CANADA     /_ @  > />...w...w...w.....==== *
* (780) 492-5408      \ ______________,_________ ==== *
* FAX: (780) 492-9234           \>      \>      \==== *
* VIRTUAL FAX: (780) 492-2216                         *
* EMAIL: jbruner at ualberta.ca
<https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwebmail.ualberta.ca%2Fimp%2Fmessage.php%3Fmailbox%3Dsent-mail%26index%3D1363%23&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=FoUQqZswMNO7wahgbnZoAk0en%2F44NZJ4AckudqsISZw%3D&reserved=0>
                        *
* HOME PAGE:https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ualberta.ca%2F~jbruner%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=J3dkYze1Qv4o0hzqppcXGXoMZakxLFgrVdqLrKZuu2A%3D&reserved=0          *
*******************************************************

------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 02:21:22 +0000 (UTC)
From: Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
To: John Bruner <jbruner at ualberta.ca>
Cc: taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
Subject: Re: Taxacom: Taxacom| Genus name question
Message-ID: <878093281.1252761.1642818082254 at mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

 Opinions on particular cases are not to be used as precedents applicable more generally. Best to avoid use of "wrong", in favour of "I disagree'
    On Saturday, 22 January 2022, 03:01:11 pm NZDT, John Bruner <jbruner at ualberta.ca> wrote:

 Wrong!? It must be a Latinized nominative singular noun. Lorenz Okenfuss, who published under the name Oken, published an Encyclopedia?in 1816 in two parts which was declared off limits?in Opinion 417 for taxonomic purposes because of his use of common names as scientific names. You can't use any name you feel like as a generic name.?
Hemming, F. 1956. Opinion 417. Rejection for nomenclatorial purposes of volume 3 (Zoologie) of the work by Lorenz Oken entitled Okens Lehrbuch der Naturgeschichte published in 1815? 1816. Opinions and declarations rendered by the International Commission on Zoological Nomenclature 14(Part 1):1?42.
On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 3:29 PM Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz> wrote:

 It is a bit unclear what exactly you are agreeing with, but to be available, a word has to have been clearly intended as a generic name, rather than as a common name or descriptive adjective per se
    On Saturday, 22 January 2022, 11:15:39 am NZDT, John Bruner <jbruner at ualberta.ca> wrote:

 Yes, I agree. An example in Ichthyology, the AFS/ASIH Fish Names Committee incorrectly accepted the German word Sander as the senior synonym for the genus Stizostedion (Walleye, Sauger, and European Pikeperch). ?Stizostedion had been correctly in use for 183 years. To make Sander (an alternate German spelling of Zander Stizostedion lucioperca), a Latinized nominative singular noun, the correctly formed Latin noun would be Sandrus. In 1828, 8 years after the correctly formed?Stizostedion was published in 1820 by Rafinesque, Stark (1828) published Sandrus. Sander had been published as a common name prior to 1820 (Bloch, 1785; Fischer, 1791, and Okenfuss (as Oken, 1817) but not as a Latinized name.?

On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 2:58 PM Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz> wrote:

 This does illustrate the unfortunate tendency for people to try to rename taxa too glibly (though John Grehan did at least have the good sense to ask for clarification first). Renaming for nomenclatural reasons should only be an absolute last resort when the need for it is 100% clear. Stephen
    On Saturday, 22 January 2022, 10:51:57 am NZDT, John Bruner <jbruner at ualberta.ca> wrote:

 Dear John Grehan:
? ? ?I agree with Scott. I would accept Magnificus. It is a nominative singular noun. Fourth declension or u-nouns end with?-us, or if neuter, -ua in the nominative, and -uum?in the genitive plural.
On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 2:39 PM Scott Thomson via Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:

Yes I agree with Stephen here, treated as a noun does not have to be one, I
am no fan of destroying names over some poor grammar, if everything else is
fine with the name it should not matter it's usable.

Cheers Scott

On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 6:32 PM Stephen Thorpe via Taxacom <
taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:

>
> 11.8. Genus-group names
>
> A genus-group name (see also Article 10.3) must be a word of two or more
> letters and must be, or be treated as, a noun in the nominative singular.
> TREATED AS
>? ? ?On Saturday, 22 January 2022, 10:11:11 am NZDT, John Grehan via
> Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
>
>? I would be interested to have input on judging the validity of the name
> 'Magnificus' which was proposed by a Chinese worker back in 2000 for a
> genus of Hepialidae. The author made no reference to the basis of the name
> (although the moths are quite nice looking and so perhaps it is an allusion
> to this aspect).
>
> Under current rules, is the name valid? I had a colleague make the
> following comments:
>
> "The problem seems to centre on the use by taxonomists of eighteenth
> century "modern" Latin, as used for learned discourse, all a bit mixed up
> with medieval liturgical Latin from the Roman church.
>
> In these branches of Latin it seems likely that as in classical Latin,
> magnficus is not a noun.
>
> So I can see two "legal" positions, from the ICZN point of view.
>
> Generic names must be nouns. Magnificus is not by any stretch of
> imagination a noun. As a generic name it is therefore invalid.
> Magnificus has appeared in the lit as a generic name. As generic names are
> nouns, this act has by definition converted Magnificus into a noun for
> taxonomic usages.
>
> If this ([2]) sounds a bit stretched, consider that many generic names are
> purely artificial. They were not nouns or anything until they appeared in
> the biological literature. So I could make up a name like Rumblustumblus
> (Rumble us, tumble us). It's hard to maintain that it's not a generic name:
> for biological purposes it's now a noun!
>
> The literature is full of prank names, most of them of course specific.? In
> fact various kinds of pranking go all the way back to Linnaeus)."
>
> I hope (wish) to get sufficient clarity to determine if it is absolutely
> necessary to replace the Magnificus' name or not.
>
> Also, why was the rule made that the original word used for a genus have to
> be a noun? In that respect there is a? name 'Viridigigas" but neither green
> or giant are nouns as such. But what do I know?
>
> John Grehan
> _______________________________________________
> Taxacom Mailing List
>
> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.ku.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=HSapmiKo99BdgG3GkJbQghee4JaTuGoQl6SXECzpw7o%3D&reserved=0
> You can reach the person managing the list at: taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
> The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=bMlpkAsWTw5F46ktqDn%2BZt6vI7QhASG4PSXve0Xzih8%3D&reserved=0
>
> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Taxacom Mailing List
>
> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.ku.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=HSapmiKo99BdgG3GkJbQghee4JaTuGoQl6SXECzpw7o%3D&reserved=0
> You can reach the person managing the list at: taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
> The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=bMlpkAsWTw5F46ktqDn%2BZt6vI7QhASG4PSXve0Xzih8%3D&reserved=0
>
> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.
>

--
Scott Thomson

Centro de Estudos dos Quel?nios da Amaz?nia - CEQUA
Petr?polis, Manaus
State of Amazonas, 69055-010
Brasil

https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.carettochelys.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=Vqvnx%2F1ZGrL0X75vD3JIX%2BRLEN5xrU08Ufawejxuoos%3D&reserved=0
ORCID: https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Forcid.org%2F0000-0003-1279-2722&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=jHFkWPbZn2xTJMj6L%2B%2B48s9YaVcSGQCV02EUy7V5p7Y%3D&reserved=0
Lattes: *https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flattes.cnpq.br%2F0323517916624728*&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=67H3poGFKM5C5c0k3in16oN5ux%2B1pJie6KNzrdB2n0s%3D&reserved=0
<https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwwws.cnpq.br%2Fcvlattesweb%2FPKG_MENU.menu%3Ff_cod%3D1E409F4BF37BFC4AD13FD58CDB7AA5FD%23&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=AugHBOIk7NiYQ1J9jShPrnKq%2FfSqueFU%2BiQHfy5Zf8M%3D&reserved=0>
Skype: Faendalimas
Mobile Phone Brasil: +55 11 98178 7270
Whatsapp: +55 11 98178 7270
_______________________________________________
Taxacom Mailing List

Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit: https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.ku.edu%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=iC6c1WWX4UF9x%2B%2BTZXVDd%2BIZNxEzBe9FxSNc5aX4Vlw%3D&reserved=0
You can reach the person managing the list at: taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at: https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=bMlpkAsWTw5F46ktqDn%2BZt6vI7QhASG4PSXve0Xzih8%3D&reserved=0

Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.

--

? ? ? ? John
*******************************************************
* Mr. John C. Bruner ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?*
* Department of Biological Sciences ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? *
* University of Alberta ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? *
* Edmonton, Alberta ? ?_______/////____/~~)_____/==== *
* T6G 2E9? CANADA ? ? /_ @? > />...w...w...w.....==== *
* (780) 492-5408 ? ? ?\ ______________,_________ ==== *
* FAX: (780) 492-9234 ? ? ? ? ? \> ? ? ?\> ? ? ?\==== *
* VIRTUAL FAX: (780) 492-2216 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? *
* EMAIL:?jbruner at ualberta.ca? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? *
* HOME PAGE:https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ualberta.ca%2F~jbruner%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=J3dkYze1Qv4o0hzqppcXGXoMZakxLFgrVdqLrKZuu2A%3D&reserved=0? ? ? ? ? *
*******************************************************

--

? ? ? ? John
*******************************************************
* Mr. John C. Bruner ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?*
* Department of Biological Sciences ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? *
* University of Alberta ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? *
* Edmonton, Alberta ? ?_______/////____/~~)_____/==== *
* T6G 2E9? CANADA ? ? /_ @? > />...w...w...w.....==== *
* (780) 492-5408 ? ? ?\ ______________,_________ ==== *
* FAX: (780) 492-9234 ? ? ? ? ? \> ? ? ?\> ? ? ?\==== *
* VIRTUAL FAX: (780) 492-2216 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? *
* EMAIL:?jbruner at ualberta.ca? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? *
* HOME PAGE:https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ualberta.ca%2F~jbruner%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=J3dkYze1Qv4o0hzqppcXGXoMZakxLFgrVdqLrKZuu2A%3D&reserved=0? ? ? ? ? *
*******************************************************

--

? ? ? ? John
*******************************************************
* Mr. John C. Bruner ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?*
* Department of Biological Sciences ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? *
* University of Alberta ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? *
* Edmonton, Alberta ? ?_______/////____/~~)_____/==== *
* T6G 2E9? CANADA ? ? /_ @? > />...w...w...w.....==== *
* (780) 492-5408 ? ? ?\ ______________,_________ ==== *
* FAX: (780) 492-9234 ? ? ? ? ? \> ? ? ?\> ? ? ?\==== *
* VIRTUAL FAX: (780) 492-2216 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? *
* EMAIL:?jbruner at ualberta.ca? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? *
* HOME PAGE:https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ualberta.ca%2F~jbruner%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=J3dkYze1Qv4o0hzqppcXGXoMZakxLFgrVdqLrKZuu2A%3D&reserved=0? ? ? ? ? *
*******************************************************

------------------------------

Message: 13
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 04:05:47 +0100
From: Francisco Welter-Schultes <fwelter at gwdg.de>
To: <taxacom at lists.ku.edu>
Subject: Re: Taxacom: Taxacom| Genus name question
Message-ID: <4e9d72e6-2836-d84f-58b2-d0ceff347926 at gwdg.de>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed

Magnificus can be a genus-group name given that it was treated as a noun
in the original source, as Stephen explained.

The genus-group name Sander was not made available by Oken in 1817, it
was a nomen nudum there on p. 1782.
https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.biodiversitylibrary.org%2Fitem%2F47608%23page%2F608%2Fmode%2F1up&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=r8s8PVs458sCC7Pznik98H80Qxmplkq8PR876eMjvMQ%3D&reserved=0

If this helps.

Best wishes
Francisco

-----
Francisco Welter-Schultes

Am 21.01.2022 um 22:09 schrieb John Grehan via Taxacom:
> I would be interested to have input on judging the validity of the name
> 'Magnificus' which was proposed by a Chinese worker back in 2000 for a
> genus of Hepialidae. The author made no reference to the basis of the name
> (although the moths are quite nice looking and so perhaps it is an allusion
> to this aspect).
>
> Under current rules, is the name valid? I had a colleague make the
> following comments:
>
> "The problem seems to centre on the use by taxonomists of eighteenth
> century "modern" Latin, as used for learned discourse, all a bit mixed up
> with medieval liturgical Latin from the Roman church.
>
> In these branches of Latin it seems likely that as in classical Latin,
> magnficus is not a noun.
>
> So I can see two "legal" positions, from the ICZN point of view.
>
> Generic names must be nouns. Magnificus is not by any stretch of
> imagination a noun. As a generic name it is therefore invalid.
> Magnificus has appeared in the lit as a generic name. As generic names are
> nouns, this act has by definition converted Magnificus into a noun for
> taxonomic usages.
>
> If this ([2]) sounds a bit stretched, consider that many generic names are
> purely artificial. They were not nouns or anything until they appeared in
> the biological literature. So I could make up a name like Rumblustumblus
> (Rumble us, tumble us). It's hard to maintain that it's not a generic name:
> for biological purposes it's now a noun!
>
> The literature is full of prank names, most of them of course specific.  In
> fact various kinds of pranking go all the way back to Linnaeus)."
>
> I hope (wish) to get sufficient clarity to determine if it is absolutely
> necessary to replace the Magnificus' name or not.
>
> Also, why was the rule made that the original word used for a genus have to
> be a noun? In that respect there is a  name 'Viridigigas" but neither green
> or giant are nouns as such. But what do I know?
>
> John Grehan
> _______________________________________________
> Taxacom Mailing List
>
> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit: https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.ku.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=HSapmiKo99BdgG3GkJbQghee4JaTuGoQl6SXECzpw7o%3D&reserved=0
> You can reach the person managing the list at: taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
> The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at: https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=bMlpkAsWTw5F46ktqDn%2BZt6vI7QhASG4PSXve0Xzih8%3D&reserved=0
>
> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.
> .
>

------------------------------

Message: 14
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 00:07:13 -0300
From: Scott Thomson <scott.thomson321 at gmail.com>
To: Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
Cc: taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
Subject: Re: Taxacom: Taxacom| Genus name question
Message-ID:
        <CADRwqwizjTUPaQK5o5CrQKwx-9Q2dV_8q7n1WRA=mKkmRzpDLw at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

My impression of that ruling was that the names and work was rejected due
to the inconsistent and essentially non use of binomial nomenclature
throughout. Not over the latin issue, As such there have been other
opinions from the ICZN in a similar vein where works were rejected due to
the non use of binomial nomenclature. I dont see the correlation to the
structure of latin words for nomenclature and that they must be nouns.

Cheers Scott

On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 11:21 PM Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
wrote:

> Opinions on particular cases are not to be used as precedents applicable
> more generally. Best to avoid use of "wrong", in favour of "I disagree'
>
> On Saturday, 22 January 2022, 03:01:11 pm NZDT, John Bruner <
> jbruner at ualberta.ca> wrote:
>
>
> Wrong!  It must be a Latinized nominative singular noun. Lorenz Okenfuss,
> who published under the name Oken, published an Encyclopedia in 1816 in two
> parts which was declared off limits in Opinion 417 for taxonomic purposes
> because of his use of common names as scientific names. You can't use any
> name you feel like as a generic name.
>
> *Hemming, F. 1956*. Opinion 417. Rejection for nomenclatorial purposes of
> volume 3 (Zoologie) of the work by Lorenz Oken entitled Okens Lehrbuch der
> Naturgeschichte published in 1815? 1816. Opinions and declarations rendered
> by the International Commission on Zoological Nomenclature 14(Part 1):1?42.
>
> On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 3:29 PM Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
> wrote:
>
> It is a bit unclear what exactly you are agreeing with, but to be
> available, a word has to have been clearly intended as a generic name,
> rather than as a common name or descriptive adjective per se
>
> On Saturday, 22 January 2022, 11:15:39 am NZDT, John Bruner <
> jbruner at ualberta.ca> wrote:
>
>
> Yes, I agree. An example in Ichthyology, the AFS/ASIH Fish Names Committee
> incorrectly accepted the German word Sander as the senior synonym for the
> genus *Stizostedion *(Walleye, Sauger, and European Pikeperch).  *Stizostedion
> *had been correctly in use for 183 years. To make Sander (an alternate
> German spelling of Zander *Stizostedion lucioperca*), a Latinized
> nominative singular noun, the correctly formed Latin noun would be
> *Sandrus*. In 1828, 8 years after the correctly formed *Stizostedion *was
> published in 1820 by Rafinesque, Stark (1828) published *Sandrus. *Sander
> had been published as a common name prior to 1820 (Bloch, 1785; Fischer,
> 1791, and Okenfuss (as Oken, 1817) but not as a Latinized name.
>
> On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 2:58 PM Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
> wrote:
>
> This does illustrate the unfortunate tendency for people to try to rename
> taxa too glibly (though John Grehan did at least have the good sense to ask
> for clarification first). Renaming for nomenclatural reasons should only be
> an absolute last resort when the need for it is 100% clear. Stephen
>
> On Saturday, 22 January 2022, 10:51:57 am NZDT, John Bruner <
> jbruner at ualberta.ca> wrote:
>
>
> Dear John Grehan:
>
>      I agree with Scott. I would accept *Magnificus. *It is a nominative
> singular noun. *Fourth declension *or u-nouns end with
> -*us*, or if neuter, *-ua* in the nominative, and *-uum* in the genitive
> plural.
>
> On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 2:39 PM Scott Thomson via Taxacom <
> taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
>
> Yes I agree with Stephen here, treated as a noun does not have to be one, I
> am no fan of destroying names over some poor grammar, if everything else is
> fine with the name it should not matter it's usable.
>
> Cheers Scott
>
> On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 6:32 PM Stephen Thorpe via Taxacom <
> taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
>
> >
> > 11.8. Genus-group names
> >
> > A genus-group name (see also Article 10.3) must be a word of two or more
> > letters and must be, or be treated as, a noun in the nominative singular.
> > TREATED AS
> >     On Saturday, 22 January 2022, 10:11:11 am NZDT, John Grehan via
> > Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
> >
> >  I would be interested to have input on judging the validity of the name
> > 'Magnificus' which was proposed by a Chinese worker back in 2000 for a
> > genus of Hepialidae. The author made no reference to the basis of the
> name
> > (although the moths are quite nice looking and so perhaps it is an
> allusion
> > to this aspect).
> >
> > Under current rules, is the name valid? I had a colleague make the
> > following comments:
> >
> > "The problem seems to centre on the use by taxonomists of eighteenth
> > century "modern" Latin, as used for learned discourse, all a bit mixed up
> > with medieval liturgical Latin from the Roman church.
> >
> > In these branches of Latin it seems likely that as in classical Latin,
> > magnficus is not a noun.
> >
> > So I can see two "legal" positions, from the ICZN point of view.
> >
> > Generic names must be nouns. Magnificus is not by any stretch of
> > imagination a noun. As a generic name it is therefore invalid.
> > Magnificus has appeared in the lit as a generic name. As generic names
> are
> > nouns, this act has by definition converted Magnificus into a noun for
> > taxonomic usages.
> >
> > If this ([2]) sounds a bit stretched, consider that many generic names
> are
> > purely artificial. They were not nouns or anything until they appeared in
> > the biological literature. So I could make up a name like Rumblustumblus
> > (Rumble us, tumble us). It's hard to maintain that it's not a generic
> name:
> > for biological purposes it's now a noun!
> >
> > The literature is full of prank names, most of them of course specific.
> In
> > fact various kinds of pranking go all the way back to Linnaeus)."
> >
> > I hope (wish) to get sufficient clarity to determine if it is absolutely
> > necessary to replace the Magnificus' name or not.
> >
> > Also, why was the rule made that the original word used for a genus have
> to
> > be a noun? In that respect there is a  name 'Viridigigas" but neither
> green
> > or giant are nouns as such. But what do I know?
> >
> > John Grehan
> > _______________________________________________
> > Taxacom Mailing List
> >
> > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> > For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> > https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.ku.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=HSapmiKo99BdgG3GkJbQghee4JaTuGoQl6SXECzpw7o%3D&reserved=0
> > You can reach the person managing the list at:
> taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
> > The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=bMlpkAsWTw5F46ktqDn%2BZt6vI7QhASG4PSXve0Xzih8%3D&reserved=0
> >
> > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Taxacom Mailing List
> >
> > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> > For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> > https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.ku.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=HSapmiKo99BdgG3GkJbQghee4JaTuGoQl6SXECzpw7o%3D&reserved=0
> > You can reach the person managing the list at:
> taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
> > The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> >
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=bMlpkAsWTw5F46ktqDn%2BZt6vI7QhASG4PSXve0Xzih8%3D&reserved=0
> >
> > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.
> >
>
>
> --
> Scott Thomson
>
> Centro de Estudos dos Quel?nios da Amaz?nia - CEQUA
> Petr?polis, Manaus
> State of Amazonas, 69055-010
> Brasil
>
>
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.carettochelys.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=Vqvnx%2F1ZGrL0X75vD3JIX%2BRLEN5xrU08Ufawejxuoos%3D&reserved=0
> ORCID:
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Forcid.org%2F0000-0003-1279-2722&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=jHFkWPbZn2xTJMj6L%2B%2B48s9YaVcSGQCV02EUy7V5p7Y%3D&reserved=0
> Lattes: *
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flattes.cnpq.br%2F0323517916624728*&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=67H3poGFKM5C5c0k3in16oN5ux%2B1pJie6KNzrdB2n0s%3D&reserved=0
> <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwwws.cnpq.br%2Fcvlattesweb%2FPKG_MENU.menu%3Ff_cod%3D1E409F4BF37BFC4AD13FD58CDB7AA5FD%23&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=AugHBOIk7NiYQ1J9jShPrnKq%2FfSqueFU%2BiQHfy5Zf8M%3D&reserved=0
> >
> Skype: Faendalimas
> Mobile Phone Brasil: +55 11 98178 7270
> Whatsapp: +55 11 98178 7270
> _______________________________________________
> Taxacom Mailing List
>
> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.ku.edu%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=iC6c1WWX4UF9x%2B%2BTZXVDd%2BIZNxEzBe9FxSNc5aX4Vlw%3D&reserved=0
> You can reach the person managing the list at: taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
> The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=bMlpkAsWTw5F46ktqDn%2BZt6vI7QhASG4PSXve0Xzih8%3D&reserved=0
>
> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.
>
>
>
> --
>
>         John
>
> *******************************************************
> * Mr. John C. Bruner                                  *
> * Department of Biological Sciences                   *
> * University of Alberta                               *
> * Edmonton, Alberta    _______/////____/~~)_____/==== *
> * T6G 2E9  CANADA     /_ @  > />...w...w...w.....==== *
> * (780) 492-5408      \ ______________,_________ ==== *
> * FAX: (780) 492-9234           \>      \>      \==== *
> * VIRTUAL FAX: (780) 492-2216                         *
> * EMAIL: jbruner at ualberta.ca
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwebmail.ualberta.ca%2Fimp%2Fmessage.php%3Fmailbox%3Dsent-mail%26index%3D1363%23&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=FoUQqZswMNO7wahgbnZoAk0en%2F44NZJ4AckudqsISZw%3D&reserved=0>
>                         *
> * HOME PAGE:https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ualberta.ca%2F~jbruner%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=J3dkYze1Qv4o0hzqppcXGXoMZakxLFgrVdqLrKZuu2A%3D&reserved=0
>           *
> *******************************************************
>
>
>
> --
>
>         John
> *******************************************************
> * Mr. John C. Bruner                                  *
> * Department of Biological Sciences                   *
> * University of Alberta                               *
> * Edmonton, Alberta    _______/////____/~~)_____/==== *
> * T6G 2E9  CANADA     /_ @  > />...w...w...w.....==== *
> * (780) 492-5408      \ ______________,_________ ==== *
> * FAX: (780) 492-9234           \>      \>      \==== *
> * VIRTUAL FAX: (780) 492-2216                         *
> * EMAIL: jbruner at ualberta.ca
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwebmail.ualberta.ca%2Fimp%2Fmessage.php%3Fmailbox%3Dsent-mail%26index%3D1363%23&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=FoUQqZswMNO7wahgbnZoAk0en%2F44NZJ4AckudqsISZw%3D&reserved=0>
>                         *
> * HOME PAGE:https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ualberta.ca%2F~jbruner%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=J3dkYze1Qv4o0hzqppcXGXoMZakxLFgrVdqLrKZuu2A%3D&reserved=0          *
> *******************************************************
>
>
>
> --
>
>         John
> *******************************************************
> * Mr. John C. Bruner                                  *
> * Department of Biological Sciences                   *
> * University of Alberta                               *
> * Edmonton, Alberta    _______/////____/~~)_____/==== *
> * T6G 2E9  CANADA     /_ @  > />...w...w...w.....==== *
> * (780) 492-5408      \ ______________,_________ ==== *
> * FAX: (780) 492-9234           \>      \>      \==== *
> * VIRTUAL FAX: (780) 492-2216                         *
> * EMAIL: jbruner at ualberta.ca
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwebmail.ualberta.ca%2Fimp%2Fmessage.php%3Fmailbox%3Dsent-mail%26index%3D1363%23&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=FoUQqZswMNO7wahgbnZoAk0en%2F44NZJ4AckudqsISZw%3D&reserved=0>
>                         *
> * HOME PAGE:https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ualberta.ca%2F~jbruner%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=J3dkYze1Qv4o0hzqppcXGXoMZakxLFgrVdqLrKZuu2A%3D&reserved=0          *
> *******************************************************
>

--
Scott Thomson

Centro de Estudos dos Quel?nios da Amaz?nia - CEQUA
Petr?polis, Manaus
State of Amazonas, 69055-010
Brasil

https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.carettochelys.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=Vqvnx%2F1ZGrL0X75vD3JIX%2BRLEN5xrU08Ufawejxuoos%3D&reserved=0
ORCID: https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Forcid.org%2F0000-0003-1279-2722&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=jHFkWPbZn2xTJMj6L%2B%2B48s9YaVcSGQCV02EUy7V5p7Y%3D&reserved=0
Lattes: *https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flattes.cnpq.br%2F0323517916624728*&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=67H3poGFKM5C5c0k3in16oN5ux%2B1pJie6KNzrdB2n0s%3D&reserved=0
<https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwwws.cnpq.br%2Fcvlattesweb%2FPKG_MENU.menu%3Ff_cod%3D1E409F4BF37BFC4AD13FD58CDB7AA5FD%23&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=AugHBOIk7NiYQ1J9jShPrnKq%2FfSqueFU%2BiQHfy5Zf8M%3D&reserved=0>
Skype: Faendalimas
Mobile Phone Brasil: +55 11 98178 7270
Whatsapp: +55 11 98178 7270

------------------------------

Message: 15
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 12:06:07 +0800
From: David Redei <david.redei at gmail.com>
To: taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
Subject: Re: Taxacom: Taxacom| Genus name question
Message-ID:
        <CAGA-UB=OpV6eJTuBNZfrDxuEr0+fpKw+fWPHtvSRk2yP+Cer6Q at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Is there any adjective which cannot be nominalized (= treated as a noun)?
Like magnificus = magnificent [adjective] -->  "the magnificent one / the
magnificent person" or even "the person called Magnificus" [noun]. Just
like in English, "increase tax for the rich!", where "rich" is in fact a
noun, meaning "the rich persons".

In Psalm 13 of the Vulgata (Psalm 14 in King James), the well-known passage
goes like: "Dixit insipiens in corde suo: non est Deus". If you look it up
in a dictionary you will see that insipiens is an adjective meaning
"foolish": https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wiktionary.org%2Fwiki%2Finsipiens&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=Hheu5Qqeuu25fXLaSxvtVlAOgSw8TgdEJbAXKFTW3mc%3D&reserved=0 , and it is true, it is
very commonly used as an adjective, you can form its superlative as
"insipientissimus" etc. But in the above sentence it is nominalized = it is
used as a noun (note "suo" in the same sentence!), meaning "the foolish
one" or "the fool".

Whether a word is an adjective or a noun is not an inherent attribute of
the word itself (as a lexical entry), but it rather indicates how the word
functions grammatically *in a given sentence*. ICZN says that the name must
be TREATED as a noun, and along the above lines pretty much any adjective
(more precisely, any word which can take the function of an adjective in a
sentence) can be TREATED as a noun. So do not worry too much about it, John.

With best wishes,

David Redei

------------------------------

Message: 16
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 00:02:43 -0500
From: John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
To: Scott Thomson <scott.thomson321 at gmail.com>
Cc: taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
Subject: Re: Taxacom: Taxacom| Genus name question
Message-ID:
        <CADN0ud1YmC-YQHyOV3gWX=GpaProoWLooqdPputOryNiJuORnA at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

My appreciation to Scott, Stephen, and everyone else who provided input on
this question. I feel a lot happier that there was pretty much consensus,
or almost so, for accepting Magnificus as valid. Very glad that there is no
imperative to change it. Sometimes tability is a good thing.

Cheers, John

On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 4:38 PM Scott Thomson <scott.thomson321 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Yes I agree with Stephen here, treated as a noun does not have to be one,
> I am no fan of destroying names over some poor grammar, if everything else
> is fine with the name it should not matter it's usable.
>
> Cheers Scott
>
> On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 6:32 PM Stephen Thorpe via Taxacom <
> taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
>
>>
>> 11.8. Genus-group names
>>
>> A genus-group name (see also Article 10.3) must be a word of two or more
>> letters and must be, or be treated as, a noun in the nominative singular.
>> TREATED AS
>>     On Saturday, 22 January 2022, 10:11:11 am NZDT, John Grehan via
>> Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
>>
>>  I would be interested to have input on judging the validity of the name
>> 'Magnificus' which was proposed by a Chinese worker back in 2000 for a
>> genus of Hepialidae. The author made no reference to the basis of the name
>> (although the moths are quite nice looking and so perhaps it is an
>> allusion
>> to this aspect).
>>
>> Under current rules, is the name valid? I had a colleague make the
>> following comments:
>>
>> "The problem seems to centre on the use by taxonomists of eighteenth
>> century "modern" Latin, as used for learned discourse, all a bit mixed up
>> with medieval liturgical Latin from the Roman church.
>>
>> In these branches of Latin it seems likely that as in classical Latin,
>> magnficus is not a noun.
>>
>> So I can see two "legal" positions, from the ICZN point of view.
>>
>> Generic names must be nouns. Magnificus is not by any stretch of
>> imagination a noun. As a generic name it is therefore invalid.
>> Magnificus has appeared in the lit as a generic name. As generic names are
>> nouns, this act has by definition converted Magnificus into a noun for
>> taxonomic usages.
>>
>> If this ([2]) sounds a bit stretched, consider that many generic names are
>> purely artificial. They were not nouns or anything until they appeared in
>> the biological literature. So I could make up a name like Rumblustumblus
>> (Rumble us, tumble us). It's hard to maintain that it's not a generic
>> name:
>> for biological purposes it's now a noun!
>>
>> The literature is full of prank names, most of them of course specific.
>> In
>> fact various kinds of pranking go all the way back to Linnaeus)."
>>
>> I hope (wish) to get sufficient clarity to determine if it is absolutely
>> necessary to replace the Magnificus' name or not.
>>
>> Also, why was the rule made that the original word used for a genus have
>> to
>> be a noun? In that respect there is a  name 'Viridigigas" but neither
>> green
>> or giant are nouns as such. But what do I know?
>>
>> John Grehan
>> _______________________________________________
>> Taxacom Mailing List
>>
>> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
>> For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.ku.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=HSapmiKo99BdgG3GkJbQghee4JaTuGoQl6SXECzpw7o%3D&reserved=0
>> You can reach the person managing the list at: taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
>> The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=bMlpkAsWTw5F46ktqDn%2BZt6vI7QhASG4PSXve0Xzih8%3D&reserved=0
>>
>> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Taxacom Mailing List
>>
>> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
>> For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.ku.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=HSapmiKo99BdgG3GkJbQghee4JaTuGoQl6SXECzpw7o%3D&reserved=0
>> You can reach the person managing the list at: taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
>> The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=bMlpkAsWTw5F46ktqDn%2BZt6vI7QhASG4PSXve0Xzih8%3D&reserved=0
>>
>> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.
>>
>
>
> --
> Scott Thomson
>
> Centro de Estudos dos Quel?nios da Amaz?nia - CEQUA
> Petr?polis, Manaus
> State of Amazonas, 69055-010
> Brasil
>
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.carettochelys.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=Vqvnx%2F1ZGrL0X75vD3JIX%2BRLEN5xrU08Ufawejxuoos%3D&reserved=0
> ORCID: https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Forcid.org%2F0000-0003-1279-2722&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=jHFkWPbZn2xTJMj6L%2B%2B48s9YaVcSGQCV02EUy7V5p7Y%3D&reserved=0
> Lattes: *https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flattes.cnpq.br%2F0323517916624728*&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=67H3poGFKM5C5c0k3in16oN5ux%2B1pJie6KNzrdB2n0s%3D&reserved=0
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwwws.cnpq.br%2Fcvlattesweb%2FPKG_MENU.menu%3Ff_cod%3D1E409F4BF37BFC4AD13FD58CDB7AA5FD%23&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=AugHBOIk7NiYQ1J9jShPrnKq%2FfSqueFU%2BiQHfy5Zf8M%3D&reserved=0>
> Skype: Faendalimas
> Mobile Phone Brasil: +55 11 98178 7270
> Whatsapp: +55 11 98178 7270
>
>

------------------------------

Message: 17
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 00:24:34 -0500
From: John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
To: Scott Thomson <scott.thomson321 at gmail.com>
Cc: taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
Subject: Re: Taxacom: Taxacom| Genus name question
Message-ID:
        <CADN0ud30G2FyuUQm56_idvy-AGFTpw=Z2UbfHMWYz5ftMtdVdQ at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Amending my initial comment - after going over all the commentary in more
detail I realize that there was indeed consensus about the validity of
Magnificus. Disagreements were over associated issues. After having already
published a revision of Magnificus I am very happy that there is no need to
change the name!

John

On Sat, Jan 22, 2022 at 12:02 AM John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com> wrote:

> My appreciation to Scott, Stephen, and everyone else who provided input on
> this question. I feel a lot happier that there was pretty much consensus,
> or almost so, for accepting Magnificus as valid. Very glad that there is no
> imperative to change it. Sometimes tability is a good thing.
>
> Cheers, John
>
> On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 4:38 PM Scott Thomson <scott.thomson321 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Yes I agree with Stephen here, treated as a noun does not have to be one,
>> I am no fan of destroying names over some poor grammar, if everything else
>> is fine with the name it should not matter it's usable.
>>
>> Cheers Scott
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 6:32 PM Stephen Thorpe via Taxacom <
>> taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> 11.8. Genus-group names
>>>
>>> A genus-group name (see also Article 10.3) must be a word of two or more
>>> letters and must be, or be treated as, a noun in the nominative singular.
>>> TREATED AS
>>>     On Saturday, 22 January 2022, 10:11:11 am NZDT, John Grehan via
>>> Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>  I would be interested to have input on judging the validity of the name
>>> 'Magnificus' which was proposed by a Chinese worker back in 2000 for a
>>> genus of Hepialidae. The author made no reference to the basis of the
>>> name
>>> (although the moths are quite nice looking and so perhaps it is an
>>> allusion
>>> to this aspect).
>>>
>>> Under current rules, is the name valid? I had a colleague make the
>>> following comments:
>>>
>>> "The problem seems to centre on the use by taxonomists of eighteenth
>>> century "modern" Latin, as used for learned discourse, all a bit mixed up
>>> with medieval liturgical Latin from the Roman church.
>>>
>>> In these branches of Latin it seems likely that as in classical Latin,
>>> magnficus is not a noun.
>>>
>>> So I can see two "legal" positions, from the ICZN point of view.
>>>
>>> Generic names must be nouns. Magnificus is not by any stretch of
>>> imagination a noun. As a generic name it is therefore invalid.
>>> Magnificus has appeared in the lit as a generic name. As generic names
>>> are
>>> nouns, this act has by definition converted Magnificus into a noun for
>>> taxonomic usages.
>>>
>>> If this ([2]) sounds a bit stretched, consider that many generic names
>>> are
>>> purely artificial. They were not nouns or anything until they appeared in
>>> the biological literature. So I could make up a name like Rumblustumblus
>>> (Rumble us, tumble us). It's hard to maintain that it's not a generic
>>> name:
>>> for biological purposes it's now a noun!
>>>
>>> The literature is full of prank names, most of them of course specific.
>>> In
>>> fact various kinds of pranking go all the way back to Linnaeus)."
>>>
>>> I hope (wish) to get sufficient clarity to determine if it is absolutely
>>> necessary to replace the Magnificus' name or not.
>>>
>>> Also, why was the rule made that the original word used for a genus have
>>> to
>>> be a noun? In that respect there is a  name 'Viridigigas" but neither
>>> green
>>> or giant are nouns as such. But what do I know?
>>>
>>> John Grehan
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Taxacom Mailing List
>>>
>>> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
>>> For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
>>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.ku.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=HSapmiKo99BdgG3GkJbQghee4JaTuGoQl6SXECzpw7o%3D&reserved=0
>>> You can reach the person managing the list at:
>>> taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
>>> The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
>>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=bMlpkAsWTw5F46ktqDn%2BZt6vI7QhASG4PSXve0Xzih8%3D&reserved=0
>>>
>>> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Taxacom Mailing List
>>>
>>> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
>>> For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
>>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.ku.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=HSapmiKo99BdgG3GkJbQghee4JaTuGoQl6SXECzpw7o%3D&reserved=0
>>> You can reach the person managing the list at:
>>> taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
>>> The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
>>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=bMlpkAsWTw5F46ktqDn%2BZt6vI7QhASG4PSXve0Xzih8%3D&reserved=0
>>>
>>> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Scott Thomson
>>
>> Centro de Estudos dos Quel?nios da Amaz?nia - CEQUA
>> Petr?polis, Manaus
>> State of Amazonas, 69055-010
>> Brasil
>>
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.carettochelys.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=Vqvnx%2F1ZGrL0X75vD3JIX%2BRLEN5xrU08Ufawejxuoos%3D&reserved=0
>> ORCID: https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Forcid.org%2F0000-0003-1279-2722&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=jHFkWPbZn2xTJMj6L%2B%2B48s9YaVcSGQCV02EUy7V5p7Y%3D&reserved=0
>> Lattes: *https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flattes.cnpq.br%2F0323517916624728*&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=67H3poGFKM5C5c0k3in16oN5ux%2B1pJie6KNzrdB2n0s%3D&reserved=0
>> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwwws.cnpq.br%2Fcvlattesweb%2FPKG_MENU.menu%3Ff_cod%3D1E409F4BF37BFC4AD13FD58CDB7AA5FD%23&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=AugHBOIk7NiYQ1J9jShPrnKq%2FfSqueFU%2BiQHfy5Zf8M%3D&reserved=0>
>> Skype: Faendalimas
>> Mobile Phone Brasil: +55 11 98178 7270
>> Whatsapp: +55 11 98178 7270
>>
>>

------------------------------

Subject: Digest Footer

Taxacom Mailing List

Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to taxacom at lists.ku.edu
For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit: https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.ku.edu%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=iC6c1WWX4UF9x%2B%2BTZXVDd%2BIZNxEzBe9FxSNc5aX4Vlw%3D&reserved=0
You can reach the person managing the list at: taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at: https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3e4f5bcbb0084e24fd5208d9ddc2e182%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637784653093459996%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=bMlpkAsWTw5F46ktqDn%2BZt6vI7QhASG4PSXve0Xzih8%3D&reserved=0

Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.

------------------------------

End of Taxacom Digest, Vol 189, Issue 12
****************************************