Taxacom: Carposinoidea or Copromorphoidea?

Tue Jul 30 09:51:53 CDT 2024

I totally agree with David´s answer and your understanding. Maybe, you can
explicitly describe this problem in your paper. It will help a lot.

On Tue, Jul 30, 2024 at 11:22 AM David Campbell via Taxacom <
taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:

> You are correct. If the two families are considered synonymous, the older
> name should be used, and if the two are placed in the same superfamily
> while treated as separate families, then the older family-level name
> applies for the superfamily. Also, you are correct that plenty of online
> sources don't follow the Code well and/or have inadequate error checking.
>
> On Monday, July 29, 2024, Soowon Cho via Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu>
> wrote:
>
> > Dear members,
> >
> > Thank you for your replies. I want to describe the problem in detail here
> > so that you can see exactly what the problems are and can advise me on
> what
> > to do.
> >
> > 1. The following is what I found and know now:
> >
> > Carposina Herrich-Schäffer, 1853
> > Carposina berberidella Herrich-Schäffer, 1853
> > Carposinidae Walsingham, 1897
> >
> > Copromorpha gypsota Meyrick, 1886
> > Copromorpha Meyrick, 1886
> > Copromorphidae Meyrick, 1905
> > Carposinoidea Walsingham, 1897
> >
> > 2. The following is what I could find from the Wikipedia:
> >
> > Carposinoidea in Wikipedia:
> > ~ The superfamily is also known as Copromorphoidea, which is a junior
> > synonym.
> > ~ It has been suggested that the division into two families should be
> > abandoned (e.g. Holloway et al., 2001).
> > In the references: Holloway, J.D., Kibby, G and Peggie, D. (1997).
> > [Probably not 1997 but 2001] The families of Malesian moths and
> > butterflies. Fauna Malesia Handbooks. 455 pp. Brill Academic Publishers,
> > Leiden.
> >
> > Carposinidae in Wikipedia:
> > ~ It is considered possible that the family is artificial, being nested
> > within Copromorphidae (Dugdale et al., 1999).
> > In the references: Dugdale, J.S., Kristensen, N.P., Robinson, G.S. and
> > Scoble, M.J. (1999) [1998]. The smaller microlepidoptera grade
> > superfamilies, Ch.13., pp. 217–232 in Kristensen, N.P. (Ed.).
> Lepidoptera,
> > Moths and Butterflies. Volume 1: Evolution, Systematics, and
> Biogeography.
> > Handbuch der Zoologie. Eine Naturgeschichte der Stämme des Tierreiches /
> > Handbook of Zoology. A Natural History of the phyla of the Animal
> Kingdom.
> > Band / Volume IV Arthropoda: Insecta Teilband / Part 35: 491 pp. Walter
> de
> > Gruyter, Berlin, New York.
> >
> > Copromorphidae in Wikipedia:
> > ~ Unlike Carposinidae the mouthparts include "labial palps" with the
> second
> > rather than third segment the longest. With other unusual structural
> > characteristics of the caterpillar and adult, it could represent the
> sister
> > lineage of all other extant members of this superfamily (Dugdale et al.,
> > 1999).
> > In the references: Dugdale, J.S., Kristensen, N.P., Robinson, G.S. and
> > Scoble, M.J. (1999). The smaller microlepidoptera grade superfamilies,
> > Ch.13., pp. 217–232 in Kristensen, N.P. (Ed.). Lepidoptera, Moths and
> > Butterflies. Volume 1: Evolution, Systematics, and Biogeography. Handbuch
> > der Zoologie. Eine Naturgeschichte der Stämme des Tierreiches / Handbook
> of
> > Zoology. A Natural History of the phyla of the Animal Kingdom. Band /
> > Volume IV Arthropoda: Insecta Teilband / Part 35: 491 pp. Walter de
> > Gruyter, Berlin, New York.
> >
> > Copromorphoidea in Wikipedia: redirected to Carposinoidea
> >
> > 3. The following is where Copromorphoidea, instead of Carposinoidea, is
> > accepted.
> >
> > nic.FUNET
> > https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fftp.funet.fi%2Findex%2FTree_of_life%2Finsecta%2Flepidoptera%2Fditrysia%2F&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C1c90cc9f41514ac37a7808dcb0a73852%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638579480226239983%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C60000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=v72%2FKnUevUculgCnqPQ%2BwxDPJ9Z%2BdvefXKkVptSHZK4%3D&reserved=0
> > copromorphoidea/#R1
> > noting as follows:
> > Copromorphoidea Meyrick, 1905
> >   Carposinoidea Walsingham, 1897
> >
> > Indiana Nature LLC
> > https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.indiananature.net%2Fpages%2Ftaxa%2FAnimalia%2Fc%2FCopromorphoidea.php&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C1c90cc9f41514ac37a7808dcb0a73852%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638579480226239983%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C60000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=EcQqpwCjvydkDvgCdUBma7a7fXlUq93%2FeECEb1vEnFY%3D&reserved=0
> > noting as follows:
> > ~ Superfamily Copromorphoidea — Fruitworm Moths
> >   Hampson, 1918
> > ~ Copromorphoidea was formerly named Carposinoidea; a name that is still
> > sometimes used as a synonym.
> >
> > Animal Diversity Web
> > https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fanimaldiversity.org%2Faccounts%2FCopromorphoidea%2Fclassification%2F%23&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C1c90cc9f41514ac37a7808dcb0a73852%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638579480226239983%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C60000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=kjFwK9Nw9pfivJO2mtgVfQz2Zu52pduLsxcPDLmzFN0%3D&reserved=0
> > Copromorphoidea
> > ~ Superfamily Copromorphoidea
> >   Family Carposinidae
> >   Family Copromorphidae
> >
> > biodiversity.org.au
> > https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fbiodiversity.org.au%2Fafd%2Ftaxa%2FCOPROMORPHOIDEA&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C1c90cc9f41514ac37a7808dcb0a73852%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638579480226396254%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C60000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=vwsWXdNxIVMX%2FkubMO2O6A6NK2GcUpM15TzlVm%2BFVjo%3D&reserved=0
> > ~ Superfamily COPROMORPHOIDEA
> >  [No name found matching Carposinoidea.]
> >
> > Wikimedia Commons
> > https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcommons.wikimedia.org%2Fwiki%2FCategory%3ACopromorphoidea&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C1c90cc9f41514ac37a7808dcb0a73852%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638579480226396254%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C60000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=PgfMf9Ieei8%2FjkBgd5mUOTXZcqmTfyxS2zT5R4FLnXo%3D&reserved=0
> > ~ Category:Copromorphoidea
> > ~ Authority file [section includes the following:]
> >   Wikidata Q902490
> >   NCBI taxonomy ID: 104437
> >   ITIS TSN: 693935
> >   Encyclopedia of Life ID: 786
> >   GBIF taxon ID: 1828
> >   Fauna Europaea ID: 5560
> >   BugGuide taxon ID: 163984
> >   iNaturalist taxon ID: 173392
> >
> >
> > As replied by Dr. Yanega and others, I think the superfamily name should
> be
> > Carposinoidea, not Copromorphoidea, but there still are some major sites
> > that accept the name Copromorphoidea.
> > Together with some notes in Wikipedia, I found a case where the
> superfamily
> > name is Carposinidea, while the family name under Carposinoidea is
> > Copromorphidae and included all the species of Carposinidae under
> > Copromorphidae.
> >
> > My understanding is that the superfamily name is Carposinoidea, the
> family
> > names are either "Copromorphidae and Carposinidae", or, if the two
> families
> > are combined, "Carposinidae." Am I wrong? Or are we not following the
> ICZN
> > anymore?
> >
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > 2024년 7월 26일 (금) 오후 11:46, Douglas Yanega via Taxacom <
> > taxacom at lists.ku.edu>님이
> > 작성:
> >
> > > On 7/25/24 5:42 PM, Soowon Cho via Taxacom wrote:
> > > > Well, back to my original question, do you agree that the family name
> > > > Copromorphidae (including all the carposinid species) is under the
> > > > superfamily name Carposinoidea? What about vice versa?
> > >
> > > That is a nomenclatural question, not a taxonomic question.
> > >
> > > If the sources I have found are correct, then we have:
> > >
> > > Copromorphidae Meyrick, 1905
> > >
> > > Carposinidae Walsingham, 1897
> > >
> > > The latter has nomenclatural precedence in that case, so if these two
> > > families are placed in the same superfamily (and there are no other
> > > names competing), then the name of that superfamily is Carposinoidea
> > > Walsingham, 1897.
> > >
> > > I will note that for some reason, various sources cite the superfamily
> > > and family names as having different authors and dates, but under the
> > > ICZN this is literally impossible.
> > >
> > > That is, "Copromorphidae" is attributed to Meyrick, 1905 while
> > > "Copromorphoidea" is attributed to Hampson, 1918. The "Principle of
> > > Coordination", defined in Article 36 of the Code, means that ANY name
> > > proposed at any of the three Code-defined ranks (family-rank,
> > > genus-rank, and species-rank) are considered to have been proposed at
> > > *all sub-ranks* simultaneously. A name proposed for a tribe is, under
> > > the Code, also being *effectively* proposed as a subfamily, family, and
> > > superfamily name, and will have priority over any name proposed
> > > originally AS a higher rank but published later. It is irrelevant if
> > > Hampson was the first person to TREAT the group as a superfamily,
> > > because Meyrick was the first to publish an available name FOR that
> > > superfamily.
> > >
> > > Under the Code, these are very different things. One act is taxonomic
> > > (treating a group as a certain rank above genus), the other act is
> > > nomenclatural (proposing a name for a rank higher than genus).
> > >
> > > SIncerely,
> > >
> > > --
> > > Doug Yanega      Dept. of Entomology       Entomology Research Museum
> > > Univ. of California, Riverside, CA 92521-0314     skype: dyanega
> > > FaceBook: Doug Yanega (disclaimer: opinions are mine, not UCR's)
> > >               https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ffaculty.ucr.edu%2F~heraty%2Fyanega.html&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C1c90cc9f41514ac37a7808dcb0a73852%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638579480226396254%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C60000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=tBBXL%2B9PIm2RCtYBXS8HFjmGzLaK4F0FeRME0sGnTbY%3D&reserved=0
> > >    "There are some enterprises in which a careful disorderliness
> > >          is the true method" - Herman Melville, Moby Dick, Chap. 82
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> > > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 37 years,
> 1987-2024.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> > Soowon Cho
> > chosoowon at gmail.com
> > Dept Plant Medicine
> > Chungbuk Nat'l Univ
> > Cheongju, 361-763
> > KOREA
> > _______________________________________________
> > Taxacom Mailing List
> >
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> >
> > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 37 years, 1987-2024.
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Dr. David Campbell
> Professor, Geology
> Department of Natural Sciences
> 110 S Main St, #7270
> Gardner-Webb University
> Boiling Springs NC 28017
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> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 37 years, 1987-2024.
>
>
>

-- 
Prof. Dr. Facundo Labarque, Ph.D.
Lab. de Sistemática de Aracnídeos / Arachnids Systematic Lab.
Departamento de Ecologia e Biologia Evolutiva (DEBE)
Universidade Federal de São Carlos (UFSCar)
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