Taxacom: The practice of Zoologica Scripta

Sat Feb 10 12:58:17 CST 2024

>>> the actual nomenclatural and taxonomic acts must be in the paper.
Plus those data that must be in ZooBank, thereby creating a slope that some would say has already started to become slippery …

/Thomas

From: Scott Thomson <scott.thomson321 at gmail.com>
Sent: 10. februar 2024 19:39
To: Frank T. Krell <Frank.Krell at dmns.org>
Cc: Thomas Pape <tpape at snm.ku.dk>; taxacom at lists.ku.edu
Subject: Re: Taxacom: The practice of Zoologica Scripta

To me one of the issues with supp info is that although the actual paper is fixed (at least eventually) there is not a general requirement for the supplementary data to be so. It can be updated on many journals as required, even if it's a pdf/A by replacing it. Hence to me any requirement for availability of a name must be in the actual paper to me. I do not mind if supporting data is in the supplementary files but the actual nomenclatural and taxonomic acts must be in the paper.

Cheers Scott

On Sat, Feb 10, 2024 at 3:05 PM Frank T. Krell via Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom at lists.ku.edu>> wrote:
Even if the availability is independent from publication, the information about the new taxon will still vanish at some point if published in electronic supplements. It would only make sense if ZooBank archived the original publication, wouldn't it?
Frank

Dr. Frank-Thorsten Krell

Senior Curator of Entomology, Editor-in-Chief
Commissioner and Councillor, International Commission on Zoological Nomenclature
Department of Zoology
Denver Museum of Nature & Science
2001 Colorado Blvd
Denver, Colorado 80205-5798, U.S.A.
Frank.krell at dmns.org<mailto:Frank.krell at dmns.org>
Phone 303.370.8244
Fax 303.331.6492
https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dmns.org%2Fscience%2Fzoology%2Fstaff%2Ffrank-krell%2F&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cbb5d5976d77b4ab5400908dc2a6a4369%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638431883097922302%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=jIsELRZgymLuilfjN9IkWYMx2mfIAYZGS4IFWXdi5Js%3D&reserved=0<https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dmns.org%2Fscience%2Fzoology%2Fstaff%2Ffrank-krell%2F&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cbb5d5976d77b4ab5400908dc2a6a4369%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638431883097922302%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=jIsELRZgymLuilfjN9IkWYMx2mfIAYZGS4IFWXdi5Js%3D&reserved=0>

Wild Color: Delve into the color spectrum in “Wild Color” to explore the brightest, boldest and most delightful colors of the rainbow – and take amazing, eye-catching photos!

Color Salvaje: Sumérgete en el espectro cromático en "Color Salvaje" para explorar los colores más brillantes, atrevidos y fascinantes del arco iris... ¡y toma fotos asombrosas y llamativas!

-----Original Message-----
From: Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at lists.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom-bounces at lists.ku.edu>> On Behalf Of Thomas Pape via Taxacom
Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2024 9:19 AM
To: taxacom at lists.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom at lists.ku.edu>
Subject: Re: Taxacom: The practice of Zoologica Scripta

Supplementary Materials associated with scientific publications issued electronically is a highly relevant issue, and I was surprised to read the disclaimer. Note that the journal has Author Guidelines including how to propose new nominal taxa, but this part of their guidelines has probably not been peer reviewed by a person well-versed in zoological nomenclature.

The ICZN is currently going through the Code, sentence by sentence, in order to provide an extensively updated proposal for a fifth edition, which will be disseminated widely for a one-year public review period. This cannot be done fast, but we make progress and will hopefully have something to present in a year's time from now.

The issue of Supplementary Materials will be discussed within the Commission in the near future, and I trust that we will come to a decision on (1) how to interpret Supplementary Materials under the current Code, and (2) what to propose for the next edition of the Code.

There are several issues involved under (1), including whether or not supplementary files are part of the 'work' (note that also traditional paper-based books can be "issued in parts").
In the present case, the file providing the description, type fixation, and type depository is a Word file, which unambiguously is *not* acceptable for being considered as published in the sense of zoological nomenclature.

I should like to cite (once again), from the Introduction to our current Code from 1999, where W.D.L. Ride anticipated that “new information systems” would become a challenge to how we disseminate nomenclatural data and establish nomenclatural availability, and he suggested that “the solution will not lie in patching up a definition of publication but, rather, in scrapping it and finding a means of replacing ‘publication’ as a primary determinant of availability”.

Amazing foresight!

/Thomas

-----Original Message-----
From: Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at lists.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom-bounces at lists.ku.edu>> On Behalf Of Stephen Thorpe via Taxacom
Sent: 10. februar 2024 05:58
To: taxacom at lists.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom at lists.ku.edu>; Geoff Read <gread at actrix.gen.nz<mailto:gread at actrix.gen.nz>>; Frank T. Krell <Frank.Krell at dmns.org<mailto:Frank.Krell at dmns.org>>
Subject: Re: Taxacom: The practice of Zoologica Scripta

 Perhaps a more sensible approach would be for the ICZN to maintain a publicly accessible database of taxonomic treatments involving new names, something along the lines of Plazi Treatment Bank. Then a new name could be available from the databased treatment, independently of publication elsewhere. I know this idea has been considered, but it doesn't seem to be going anywhere, possibly because authors wouldn't get citation or impact credits from uploading such treatments, so they might not bother! "The system" is what is keeping all this messy.
Stephen
    On Saturday, 10 February 2024 at 04:00:15 pm NZDT, Frank T. Krell <frank.krell at dmns.org<mailto:frank.krell at dmns.org>> wrote:

 Entirely incapable. Nice wording. Yes, we keep everything messy. Everything, the entire world, as messy as it has nobody seen before.

Hey, we talk about Word files. A Word file is as archival as a pencil-written notice or a species description on a magic board.
Also, the long-term availability of electronic supplements are questionable. Publishers usually do not edit them, nor do they make sure that they remain readable over the decades. I dare to predict that electronic supplements will just fade away. That's what you want to happen to species descriptions?
Then I rather prefer the ICZN to be entirely incapable to share your opinion 😊.
Still one of them for a few months
Frank

Dr. Frank-Thorsten Krell

Senior Curator of Entomology, Editor-in-Chief Commissioner and Councillor, International Commission on Zoological Nomenclature Department of Zoology Denver Museum of Nature & Science
2001 Colorado Blvd
Denver, Colorado 80205-5798, U.S.A.
Frank.krell at dmns.org<mailto:Frank.krell at dmns.org>
Phone 303.370.8244
Fax 303.331.6492
https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dmns.org%2Fscience%2Fzoology%2Fstaff%2Ffrank-krell%2F&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cbb5d5976d77b4ab5400908dc2a6a4369%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638431883097922302%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=jIsELRZgymLuilfjN9IkWYMx2mfIAYZGS4IFWXdi5Js%3D&reserved=0<https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dmns.org%2Fscience%2Fzoology%2Fstaff%2Ffrank-krell%2F&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cbb5d5976d77b4ab5400908dc2a6a4369%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638431883097922302%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=jIsELRZgymLuilfjN9IkWYMx2mfIAYZGS4IFWXdi5Js%3D&reserved=0>

Wild Color: Delve into the color spectrum in “Wild Color” to explore the brightest, boldest and most delightful colors of the rainbow – and take amazing, eye-catching photos!

Color Salvaje: Sumérgete en el espectro cromático en "Color Salvaje" para explorar los colores más brillantes, atrevidos y fascinantes del arco iris... ¡y toma fotos asombrosas y llamativas!

-----Original Message-----
From: Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at lists.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom-bounces at lists.ku.edu>> On Behalf Of Stephen Thorpe via Taxacom
Sent: Friday, February 9, 2024 7:32 PM
To: taxacom at lists.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom at lists.ku.edu>; Geoff Read <gread at actrix.gen.nz<mailto:gread at actrix.gen.nz>>
Subject: Re: Taxacom: The practice of Zoologica Scripta

 There is no "debate". Nomenclature relegated to supplementary MSWord files is *not* code compliant in zoology. The only debate is whether or not the code needs to be adhered to so strictly, or whether these names can be used as perfectly good names for taxa, even if they fail code compliance on a technicality. My own view is that it is preferable to use a name that fails code compliance on a technicality rather than use no name at all. Probably also not worth renaming these taxa to gain code compliance, but, if they are renamed, the same epithet should be used for stability. However, the ICZN and the taxonomic community as a whole seems to be entirely incapable of achieving a sensible view on this, so it will no doubt remain messy for the foreseeable future.
Stephen
    On Saturday, 10 February 2024 at 11:46:49 am NZDT, Geoff Read via Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom at lists.ku.edu>> wrote:

 Posting from my private email.  Sorry about the extra fluff that results from using my workplace email.

Okay.

It is https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdoi.org%2F10.1111%2Fzsc.12651&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cbb5d5976d77b4ab5400908dc2a6a4369%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638431883097922302%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=3tTZMaZdVtc%2BSft6G3luw2VYZMLG4F5vSVpS1IpvyUY%3D&reserved=0<https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdoi.org%2F10.1111%2Fzsc.12651&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cbb5d5976d77b4ab5400908dc2a6a4369%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638431883097922302%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=3tTZMaZdVtc%2BSft6G3luw2VYZMLG4F5vSVpS1IpvyUY%3D&reserved=0>

an article on Capitella bristleworms mainly molecularly distinguished, & open access.  However, the same treatment will have been done to all the 'early view' articles with new taxa

https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fonlinelibrary.wiley.com%2Ftoc%2F14636409%2F0%2F0&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cbb5d5976d77b4ab5400908dc2a6a4369%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638431883097922302%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=KrRZBnZ%2BbKSXMu%2F98KuaqA%2FcZvc%2F4fw5g359Q4hGxlQ%3D&reserved=0<https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fonlinelibrary.wiley.com%2Ftoc%2F14636409%2F0%2F0&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cbb5d5976d77b4ab5400908dc2a6a4369%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638431883097922302%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=KrRZBnZ%2BbKSXMu%2F98KuaqA%2FcZvc%2F4fw5g359Q4hGxlQ%3D&reserved=0>

The 'disclaimer' is here:
https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fonlinelibrary.wiley.com%2Fpage%2Fjournal%2F14636409%2Fhomepage%2Fproductinformation.html&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cbb5d5976d77b4ab5400908dc2a6a4369%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638431883097922302%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=f5EcOikqsG2nabaqvib75hPkMvRmJfzSdUcUMsoysfg%3D&reserved=0<https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fonlinelibrary.wiley.com%2Fpage%2Fjournal%2F14636409%2Fhomepage%2Fproductinformation.html&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cbb5d5976d77b4ab5400908dc2a6a4369%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638431883097922302%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=f5EcOikqsG2nabaqvib75hPkMvRmJfzSdUcUMsoysfg%3D&reserved=0>

I would be very reluctant to treat the names as unavailable.  The 'work' is all the files, not just the pdf.

Geoff
--
Geoffrey B. Read, Ph.D.
Wellington, NEW ZEALAND
gread at actrix.gen.nz<mailto:gread at actrix.gen.nz>

>---- Original Message ----
>From: "Frank T. Krell via Taxacom" <taxacom at lists.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom at lists.ku.edu>>
>To: "Geoff Read" <Geoffrey.Read at niwa.co.nz<mailto:Geoffrey.Read at niwa.co.nz>>, "taxacom at lists.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom at lists.ku.edu>"
><taxacom at lists.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom at lists.ku.edu>>
>Sent: Sat, Feb 10, 2024, 11:25 AM
>Subject: Re: Taxacom: The practice of Zoologica Scripta
>
>Could you provide the title/link to the paper. The availability of the names depends on what is included in the pdf/A, i.e.. in the immutable part of the paper. If components required for availability are only in the Word document, the names will not be available.
>Putting taxonomy into electronic supplements gives a clear message that taxomony is second class science and not worth to be in the main journal. Zoological Scripta was always very "progressive" in terms of Code requirements, e.g., by admitting uninominal names for species, for example, following the then version of the Phylocode.
>I guess taxonomy should not be published in Zoological Scripta. What a shame. Well, I would like to see the paper first before I draw conclusions.

_______________________________________________
Taxacom Mailing List

Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom at lists.ku.edu> For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit: https://lists.ku.edu/listinfo/taxacom<https://lists.ku.edu/listinfo/taxacom>
You can reach the person managing the list at: taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu> The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at: https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cbb5d5976d77b4ab5400908dc2a6a4369%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638431883098078541%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=%2BMqEo7Ix8kaIv5MTL%2B%2Bj3sYP1%2BG3LnxPNvjDoRRkgpM%3D&reserved=0<https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cbb5d5976d77b4ab5400908dc2a6a4369%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638431883098078541%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=%2BMqEo7Ix8kaIv5MTL%2B%2Bj3sYP1%2BG3LnxPNvjDoRRkgpM%3D&reserved=0>