Taxacom: Minimalist revision of Mesochorus Gravenhorst, 1829

Wed Aug 30 07:34:13 CDT 2023

Only a brief comment: It is bizarre to read the word "REVISION" in the
title of the paper. Intentionally and admittedly ignoring all previous
works on the group in concern is the exact opposite of what the word
"revision" means. I cannot imagine any taxonomic paper which is farther
from being a revision than this one.

David Redei

On Wed, 30 Aug 2023 at 20:09, Carlos Alberto Martínez Muñoz via Taxacom <
taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:

> I am glad that the logical fallacies in that paper are already being
> pointed out. Thank you, Marco. You will definitely find more.
>
> On Wed, Aug 30, 2023 at 2:02 PM Marco Uliana <marco.uliana.1 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Dear all, I have been reading this group for a long time, but I think
> this
> > is my first message.
> > Greetings to everyone.
> >
> > The new Sharkey paper is available from here
> > https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Frevistas.ucr.ac.cr%2Findex.php%2Frbt%2Fissue%2Fview%2F3352&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C968d7ae541754db47c0708dba9557383%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638289957429813543%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=JUa9H4uAZ6JPSVkFARp%2FoAOWmw5m0zRCnzdx3KmObcw%3D&reserved=0
> >
> > A decent proxy for their working method could perhaps be:
> > *As it was really hard for us to cope with the 245 species of neotropical
> > Nesochorus already described/treated by Dasch (1974), we decided it would
> > have been easier for us to go our own way and start again from zero*.
> > In the same way I suppose that, shall one find some problems with these
> > COI-based diagnosis (e.g.: ambiguous, mismatching morphology, out of
> reach,
> > obsolete against genomic based diagnosis, just too boring...), he can as
> > well ignore Sharkey et al. 2023, and restart taxonomy and nomenclature
> once
> > more.
> >
> > Also, I think that arguments like this are difficult to comment on:
> > *Many of the characters in Dasch’s key use jargon that only a few
> > entomologists know. *
> > *For example, few of the general population understand the terms
> > postpetiole and frons (Fig. 3). *
> > *The key is almost impossible for professional taxonomists, and it is in
> > an alien language for the vast majority of potential users.*
> >
> > I'm not sure if this is the right way to proceed...
> >
> > Marco Uliana
> > Museo di Storia Naturale di Venezia, Italy
> > ᐧ
> > ᐧ
> >
> > Il giorno mer 30 ago 2023 alle ore 11:38 Roderic Page via Taxacom <
> > taxacom at lists.ku.edu> ha scritto:
> >
> >> Hi Carlos,
> >>
> >> I’m reminded of Charles Godfrey’s wonderful essay "Taxonomy as
> >> Information Science” https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fbiostor.org%2Freference%2F250587&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C968d7ae541754db47c0708dba9557383%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638289957429813543%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=wBXtJsYSjrO%2F%2F0f3O8geh1I0N9796lYK0gkbBiJpkRY%3D&reserved=0 where he
> >> writes (p. 174):
> >> A depressing amount of entomological taxonomy, especially in Europe,
> >> consists of long and lengthy discussions of this type of taxonomic
> >> book-keeping (to avoid this, some of the best taxonomists I know work
> only
> >> in the tropics where they can be biologists rather than archivists).
> >> I think the paper "Minimalist revision of Mesochorus Gravenhorst...”
> >> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Frevistas.ucr.ac.cr%2Findex.php%2Frbt%2Farticle%2Fview%2F56316&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C968d7ae541754db47c0708dba9557383%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638289957429969816%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=WFyORQCQ7JFSVFZmLDXlE%2B3RG8nHab%2FLbbH3zassgp0%3D&reserved=0 (the DOI
> >> doesn’t seem to be registered yet) makes a reasoned case for “ignoring"
> >> earlier work.
> >>
> >> By my reading the authors are simply saying that creating 2-3 synonyms
> >> for 10 existing names is a small price to pay for being able to document
> >> the other species in the large genus in a biologically rich region.
> >>
> >> It is a long time since I’ve done actual taxonomy, but I’m sure many
> >> researchers are faced with names they can’t place, descriptions that are
> >> nearly useless, specimens that are missing (or type series that comprise
> >> multiple taxa). At some point we make a judgement call about whether we
> >> invest time in resolving this, or put them to one side in the hope that
> >> perhaps we can resolve it later (do we want to be biologists or
> >> archivists?).
> >>
> >> The authors point out that sequencing the Dasch types (if feasible)
> would
> >> be one way to discover whether there are synonyms.
> >>
> >> Your statement that “all is set to completely overwrite the current
> >> morphological system and names” seems hyperbolic at best. We are in an
> >> interesting time where new technologies present new opportunities (and
> >> challenges), and we are figuring out how best to proceed (as we do every
> >> time new technologies come along and force us to rethink things).
> >>
> >> Personally I’m going to re-read Charles’ essay, and ponder how this
> >> debate (and others in our field) address his assessment (p. 172) that:
> >> What matters is not only how interesting the question is, the potential
> >> extra science that the research may leverage, but how capable the
> subject
> >> is of delivering useful output. I think taxonomy is suffering not
> because
> >> it is any less interesting or important than it was fifty years, but
> >> because it is largely failing to deliver.
> >> Regards,
> >>
> >> Rod
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------
> >> Roderic Page
> >> Professor of Taxonomy
> >> School of Biodiversity, One Health, & Veterinary Medicine
> >> College of Medical, Veterinary and Life Sciences
> >> Graham Kerr Building
> >> University of Glasgow
> >> Glasgow G12 8QQ, UK
> >>
> >> Email: Roderic.Page at glasgow.ac.uk<mailto:Roderic.Page at glasgow.ac.uk>
> >> LinkedIn: https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fuk.linkedin.com%2Fin%2Frdmpage&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C968d7ae541754db47c0708dba9557383%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638289957429969816%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=lP9nCvXEXQkNisBCuF0nCSOPUNSUlN9zH8ls6SND8Cg%3D&reserved=0
> >> Twitter: https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Frdmpage&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C968d7ae541754db47c0708dba9557383%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638289957429969816%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Xw%2BKLeZ1eXh38w5L2vOIB5kSgK%2BqbtpD0e8RBPLLh8g%3D&reserved=0
> >> Telegram: rdmpage
> >> Blog: https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fiphylo.blogspot.com%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C968d7ae541754db47c0708dba9557383%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638289957429969816%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=gfysQaoRria1NnmsM9wu1yrGHXEbTFpLFPG5GKyUuTU%3D&reserved=0
> >> ORCID: https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Forcid.org%2F0000-0002-7101-9767&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C968d7ae541754db47c0708dba9557383%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638289957429969816%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=kYSW%2BjIwqh1Rnyvjx%2BHLaWl205QGyIFCeGzLc1QJ1DQ%3D&reserved=0
> >> Citations:
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fscholar.google.co.uk%2Fcitations%3Fhl%3Den%26user%3D4Z5WABAAAAAJ&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C968d7ae541754db47c0708dba9557383%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638289957429969816%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=FoRq3U2vKPJFdbAW%2BJGyMY1Dr%2BTFw%2FFtkbwPBOGSBns%3D&reserved=0
> >> ResearchGate https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fprofile%2FRoderic_Page&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C968d7ae541754db47c0708dba9557383%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638289957429969816%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=SPJnUJYun06ia%2Fi6wpQcZUEHgqiZjIfLwHl5w%2BW1hTk%3D&reserved=0
> >> On 30 Aug 2023 at 09:11 +0100, Carlos Alberto Martínez Muñoz via
> Taxacom <
> >> taxacom at lists.ku.edu>, wrote:
> >> Dear Taxacomers,
> >> For your enjoyment, here is the latest episode of the Meierotto *et al.*
> >> (2019) saga, published six days ago, on August 24, 2023:
> >> Sharkey *et al*. (2023): Minimalist revision of *Mesochorus*
> Gravenhorst,
> >> 1829 (Hymenoptera: Ichneumonidae: Mesochorinae) from Área de
> Conservación
> >> Guanacaste, Costa Rica, with 158 new species and host records for 129
> >> species. *Revista de Biología Tropical*, 71 (S2): 1-174.
> >> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdoi.org%2F10.15517%2Frev.biol.trop..v71iS2.2023&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C968d7ae541754db47c0708dba9557383%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638289957429969816%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=hl5AFcO7oZLZ1uKY%2BfbK5AJjTphWXZO9SxD6XB3R7MI%3D&reserved=0
> >>
> >> You will enjoy reading through the logical fallacies in the
> introduction.
> >> But more importantly, this paper contains what I told you and warned you
> >> would happen, since the Meierotto *et al.* (2019) paper, if you failed
> to
> >> act swiftly and properly. Now it is here. Read:
> >> "Dasch (1974) treated a very small proportion of ACG *Mesochorus*
> species,
> >> therefore few synonyms will be generated in our current effort which
> does
> >> not attempt to match his names with Costa Rican specimens."
> >> There you have a primarily morphological system finally openly hijacked
> by
> >> a parallel taxonomic system which wants to use the naming rules of the
> >> current system for convenience.
> >> "In other words, it is likely that we are generating two or three
> synonyms
> >> (0.23 x 10) of these Dasch species."
> >> So, a complete disregard for priority and open acceptance of synonym
> >> creation, as I warned four years ago. When things like this can go
> through
> >> and get published, even when they threaten universality and stability,
> >> then
> >> you realize that we don't need a ZooCode anymore. Given that the
> authors,
> >> reviewers, and editor accepted 23% synonym creation as good, then all is
> >> set to completely overwrite the current morphological system and names,
> as
> >> the 2 million species described versus 10 million species estimate is
> just
> >> 20%. If we estimate a total of 80 or 100 million species, then creating
> 2
> >> million synonyms for the existing names goes down to a "negligible" 2%
> >> synonymy threshold. Completely acceptable, isn't it?
> >>
> >> To the commissioners who have tolerated this, because of their conflict
> of
> >> values (not of interest) based on the incorrect assumption that species
> >> need scientific names to be assessed and protected: anyone that has read
> >> through the IUCN Red List methodology knows that this is not true, and
> >> there are countries with legislation in place to protect species even if
> >> they don't have scientific names. You better update yourselves.
> >>
> >> By the way, at least one of the species has two original spellings,
> >> *Mesochorus
> >> dotres* (which should be declared an incorrect original spelling) and
> >> *Mesochorus
> >> dostres* (the supposedly correct spelling).
> >>
> >> Now I will just sit here and contemplate the devastation.
> >>
> >> Am I forgetting to emphasise something? Ah, yes: "I told you".
> >>
> >> Yours in horror,
> >> Carlos Martínez
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Taxacom Mailing List
> >>
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> >> The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
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> >>
> >> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity and admiring alliteration for
> >> about 36 years, 1987-2023.
> >> _______________________________________________
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> >>
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> >> The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
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> >>
> >> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity and admiring alliteration for
> >> about 36 years, 1987-2023.
> >>
> >
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>
> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity and admiring alliteration for
> about 36 years, 1987-2023.
>