Taxacom: Definitions

John Grehan calabar.john at gmail.com
Sun Aug 27 23:26:33 CDT 2023


Now that you (Heads) mention it, I don't recall congruent cladograms
either. Thanks for the clarification.



On Sun, Aug 27, 2023 at 6:16 PM Michael Heads <m.j.heads at gmail.com> wrote:

> Juan M. doesn't look for congruent area cladograms, so he's not a typical
> vicariance cladist.
>
> On Mon, Aug 28, 2023 at 9:26 AM David Williams - Botany <
> d.m.williams at nhm.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>> I wouldn't try attempt to classify a good number of people for what they
>> do, certainly, at this point, not Juan. I'm working my way through his 'El
>> Laberinto de la sistematica filogenetica', a worthy contribution as far as
>> I can tell at this point.
>>
>> David
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* 27 August 2023 20:06
>> *To:* David Williams - Botany <d.m.williams at nhm.ac.uk>
>> *Cc:* Michael Heads <m.j.heads at gmail.com>; taxacom <
>> taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
>> *Subject:* Re: Taxacom: Definitions
>>
>> Hi David,
>>
>> How would you classify the work of Juan Morrone, who uses tracks, and
>> area cladograms, and yet often resorts to centers of origin and chance
>> dispersal for explanation?
>>
>> Cheers, John
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 27, 2023 at 2:21 PM David Williams - Botany <
>> d.m.williams at nhm.ac.uk> wrote:
>>
>> John Grehan raised an interesting question on ‘fraud’ in science relative
>> to ‘CODA’ explanations in biogeography (‘Centers of Origin, Dispersal,
>> and Adaptation’). I’m not entirely sure ‘fraud’ is the right word, but
>> the issues addressed did remind me of a passage from Orwell:
>>
>>
>>
>> “At any given moment there is an orthodoxy, a body of ideas which it is
>> assumed that all right-thinking people will accept without question. It is
>> not exactly forbidden to say this, that or the other, but it is ‘not done’
>> to say it, just as in mid-Victorian times it was ‘not done’ to mention
>> trousers in the presence of a lady.”
>>
>>
>>
>> John later wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> “In some past papers there have been some objections to the validity of
>> panbiogeography, even by some vicariance cladists (!) who contrarily also
>> claimed that panbiogeography is one of the foundations for the validity of
>> vicariance biogeography (figure that one out)”.
>>
>>
>>
>> And Michael Heads added:
>>
>>
>>
>> “vicariance cladistics (Nelson, Platnick etc.) adopted the idea that
>> topologically congruent area cladograms (phylogenies) for different groups
>> were evidence for vicariance, incongruence meant chance dispersal. Croizat,
>> Robin Craw and myself criticised these analyses in the early 1980s on the
>> basis of their a priori areas ('Australia' 'South America' etc.), neglect
>> of any geological history apart from continental drift, neglect of
>> pre-drift differentiation, assumption of ancestral monomorphism etc”.
>>
>>
>>
>> Parts of these two summaries are inaccurate, as least with respect to how
>> biogeography developed in certain quarters, but that can be passed over
>> (for the moment) as detail. What is of significance is that both parties --
>> panbiogeographers, ‘vicariance cladists’, never mind any definitions –
>> agreed that ‘CODA’ was found to be faulty, if not entirely false.
>>
>>
>>
>> Orwell’s words above are from an unused (suppressed) preface to *Animal
>> Farm* (published in 1945). This unused preface addressing “The Freedom
>> of the Press” was not actually published until 1972 – perhaps, then,
>> suppression is more appropriate.
>>
>>
>> David
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at lists.ku.edu> on behalf of Michael
>> Heads via Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu>
>> *Sent:* 27 August 2023 01:52
>> *To:* John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
>> *Cc:* taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
>> *Subject:* Re: Taxacom: Definitions
>>
>> vicariance cladistics (Nelson, Platnick etc.) adopted the idea that
>> topologically congruent area cladograms (phylogenies) for different groups
>> were evidence for vicariance, incongruence meant chance dispersal.
>> Croizat,
>> Robin Craw and myself criticised these analyses in the early 1980s on the
>> basis of their a priori areas ('Australia' 'South America' etc.), neglect
>> of any geological history apart from continental drift, neglect of
>> pre-drift differentiation, assumption of ancestral monomorphism etc.
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 27, 2023 at 12:06 PM John Grehan via Taxacom <
>> taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
>>
>> > Hi Richard,
>> >
>> > No, I Cannot provide an authoritative definition. It used to be simple,
>> > with vicariance biogeography, but then some morphing took place to
>> > vicariance cladistics. I don't keep up with who does exactly what in
>> terms
>> > of definitions. I think Morrone may have generated a definition, but I
>> > don't have it to hand.
>> >
>> > Cheers, John
>> >
>> > On Sat, Aug 26, 2023 at 3:36 PM Richard Jensen <rjensen at saintmarys.edu>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > > Hi John,
>> > >
>> > > In your most recent post, you referred to "vicariance cladists".
>> Could
>> > > you please provide a means for someone to determine if a person is a
>> > > vicariance cladist or not?  This may require your definitions of both
>> > > terms, as the latter, in particular, has gone through several
>> iterations
>> > > over the past 40 years or so.  Or, am I permitted to apply my own
>> > > definitions to each term? If the latter, then how will I know if we
>> are
>> > > writing about the same thing?  It seems the definitions we use are
>> > > necessary to prevent a repeat of the "fraud" missives that currently
>> > > dominated this list.
>> > >
>> > > Cheers,
>> > >
>> > > Richard
>> > >
>> > > On Sat, Aug 26, 2023 at 12:46 AM John Grehan via Taxacom <
>> > > taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> So as not to confuse with other issues, I teased this item out. My
>> view
>> > >> about definitions not mattering is in the context that definitions
>> only
>> > >> state what one has already decided or what one thinks one already
>> knows.
>> > >> Within those constraints definitions may matter, but they are just a
>> > >> summary of a certain knowledge or decisions, not a key to the unknown
>> > >> which
>> > >> is what science is concerned with. For example, if I were to define
>> > >> evolution as space + time + form, that may well be very informative
>> to
>> > >> some, and not so informative to others. So, dealing with the unknown,
>> > the
>> > >> ascertainment of new knowledge, definitions really don't matter. But
>> of
>> > >> course thousands may think otherwise, and that's OK with me too.
>> > >>
>> > >> Cheers, John
>> > >>
>> > >> --
>> > >>
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhepialidsoftheworld.com.au%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ce27378e899ea46c4a7ee08dba77f0ce4%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638287936355849609%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=vjSfHQBdWFAf%2FkAtBR6ILkK0CILqwb4OMrD6ggYrl%2FE%3D&reserved=0
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>> > >> link, then the 'Ghost Moth Research page' link.
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>> > >>
>> > >> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity and admiring alliteration
>> for
>> > >> about 36 years, 1987-2023.
>> > >>
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > Richard Jensen, Professor Emeritus
>> > > Department of Biology
>> > > Saint Mary's College
>> > > Notre Dame, IN 46556
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> >
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhepialidsoftheworld.com.au%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ce27378e899ea46c4a7ee08dba77f0ce4%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638287936356005844%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ZYkTy0LE98DJrI0336QLB9PfVuGHFXgabpbmGlpXrT0%3D&reserved=0
>> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhepialidsoftheworld.com.au%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ce27378e899ea46c4a7ee08dba77f0ce4%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638287936356005844%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ZYkTy0LE98DJrI0336QLB9PfVuGHFXgabpbmGlpXrT0%3D&reserved=0> (use the 'visit archived web site'
>> > link, then the 'Ghost Moth Research page' link.
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Taxacom Mailing List
>> >
>> > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
>> > For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
>> >
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>> <https://lists.ku.edu/listinfo/taxacom>
>> > You can reach the person managing the list at:
>> taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
>> > The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
>> >
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ce27378e899ea46c4a7ee08dba77f0ce4%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638287936356005844%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=3NXMzVqHmsUMRsM5XLbtQ7wr4nsmRWaDht4yWk%2BAIQI%3D&reserved=0
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>> >
>> > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity and admiring alliteration for
>> > about 36 years, 1987-2023.
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> Dunedin, New Zealand.
>>
>> My books:
>>
>> *Biogeography and evolution in New Zealand. *Taylor and Francis/CRC, Boca
>> Raton FL. 2017.
>>
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.routledge.com%2FBiogeography-and-Evolution-in-New-Zealand%2FHeads%2Fp%2Fbook%2F9781498751872&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ce27378e899ea46c4a7ee08dba77f0ce4%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638287936356005844%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=4%2FvrIVeYe8%2B5vmhdKsXi14pEOoDo6cPy8Mj%2Bj%2ByXbgY%3D&reserved=0
>> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.routledge.com%2FBiogeography-and-Evolution-in-New-Zealand%2FHeads%2Fp%2Fbook%2F9781498751872&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ce27378e899ea46c4a7ee08dba77f0ce4%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638287936356005844%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=4%2FvrIVeYe8%2B5vmhdKsXi14pEOoDo6cPy8Mj%2Bj%2ByXbgY%3D&reserved=0>
>>
>>
>> *Biogeography of Australasia:  A molecular analysis*. Cambridge University
>> Press, Cambridge. 2014.
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cambridge.org%2F9781107041028&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ce27378e899ea46c4a7ee08dba77f0ce4%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638287936356005844%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=G2y9qSLrJKNkYXUsAVnOKX8HPXbYgEF0rkqT%2FZHx86Q%3D&reserved=0
>> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cambridge.org%2F9781107041028&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ce27378e899ea46c4a7ee08dba77f0ce4%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638287936356005844%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=G2y9qSLrJKNkYXUsAVnOKX8HPXbYgEF0rkqT%2FZHx86Q%3D&reserved=0>
>>
>>
>> *Molecular panbiogeography of the tropics. *University of California
>> Press,
>> Berkeley. 2012.
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ucpress.edu%2Fbook.php%3Fisbn%3D9780520271968&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ce27378e899ea46c4a7ee08dba77f0ce4%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638287936356005844%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=heWxU72v0ZiPmlnjf9tAjswKqFfwKCLaWGiVXcqMSBY%3D&reserved=0
>> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ucpress.edu%2Fbook.php%3Fisbn%3D9780520271968&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ce27378e899ea46c4a7ee08dba77f0ce4%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638287936356005844%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=heWxU72v0ZiPmlnjf9tAjswKqFfwKCLaWGiVXcqMSBY%3D&reserved=0>
>>
>>
>> *Panbiogeography: Tracking the history of life*. Oxford University Press,
>> New York. 1999. (With R. Craw and J. Grehan).
>>
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbooks.google.co.nz%2Fbooks%3Fid%3DBm0_QQ3Z6GUC&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ce27378e899ea46c4a7ee08dba77f0ce4%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638287936356005844%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=0FGJtEYq%2ByrxTlptvTOlBuRjGsMCjj9r9H9z3sM3l2Q%3D&reserved=0
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>> <
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>> >
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>> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ce27378e899ea46c4a7ee08dba77f0ce4%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638287936356005844%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=3NXMzVqHmsUMRsM5XLbtQ7wr4nsmRWaDht4yWk%2BAIQI%3D&reserved=0>
>>
>> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity and admiring alliteration for
>> about 36 years, 1987-2023.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhepialidsoftheworld.com.au%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ce27378e899ea46c4a7ee08dba77f0ce4%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638287936356005844%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ZYkTy0LE98DJrI0336QLB9PfVuGHFXgabpbmGlpXrT0%3D&reserved=0 (use the 'visit archived web site'
>> link, then the 'Ghost Moth Research page' link.
>>
>
>
> --
> Dunedin, New Zealand.
>
> My books:
>
> *Biogeography and evolution in New Zealand. *Taylor and Francis/CRC, Boca
> Raton FL. 2017.
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.routledge.com%2FBiogeography-and-Evolution-in-New-Zealand%2FHeads%2Fp%2Fbook%2F9781498751872&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ce27378e899ea46c4a7ee08dba77f0ce4%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638287936356005844%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=4%2FvrIVeYe8%2B5vmhdKsXi14pEOoDo6cPy8Mj%2Bj%2ByXbgY%3D&reserved=0
>
>
> *Biogeography of Australasia:  A molecular analysis*. Cambridge
> University Press, Cambridge. 2014. https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cambridge.org%2F9781107041028&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ce27378e899ea46c4a7ee08dba77f0ce4%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638287936356005844%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=G2y9qSLrJKNkYXUsAVnOKX8HPXbYgEF0rkqT%2FZHx86Q%3D&reserved=0
>
>
> *Molecular panbiogeography of the tropics. *University of California
> Press, Berkeley. 2012. https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ucpress.edu%2Fbook.php%3Fisbn%3D9780520271968&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ce27378e899ea46c4a7ee08dba77f0ce4%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638287936356005844%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=heWxU72v0ZiPmlnjf9tAjswKqFfwKCLaWGiVXcqMSBY%3D&reserved=0
>
>
> *Panbiogeography: Tracking the history of life*. Oxford University Press,
> New York. 1999. (With R. Craw and J. Grehan).
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbooks.google.co.nz%2Fbooks%3Fid%3DBm0_QQ3Z6GUC&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ce27378e899ea46c4a7ee08dba77f0ce4%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638287936356005844%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=0FGJtEYq%2ByrxTlptvTOlBuRjGsMCjj9r9H9z3sM3l2Q%3D&reserved=0
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbooks.google.co.nz%2Fbooks%3Fid%3DBm0_QQ3Z6GUC%26dq%3Dpanbiogeography%26source%3Dgbs_navlinks_s&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ce27378e899ea46c4a7ee08dba77f0ce4%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638287936356005844%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=LF22OqVG2g95ojPwsE01GmAOvfIf6zcNZlV8zbrEBQM%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

-- 
https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhepialidsoftheworld.com.au%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ce27378e899ea46c4a7ee08dba77f0ce4%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638287936356005844%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ZYkTy0LE98DJrI0336QLB9PfVuGHFXgabpbmGlpXrT0%3D&reserved=0 (use the 'visit archived web site'
link, then the 'Ghost Moth Research page' link.


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