Taxacom: Definitions

Sun Aug 27 14:06:35 CDT 2023

Hi David,

How would you classify the work of Juan Morrone, who uses tracks, and area
cladograms, and yet often resorts to centers of origin and chance dispersal
for explanation?

Cheers, John

On Sun, Aug 27, 2023 at 2:21 PM David Williams - Botany <
d.m.williams at nhm.ac.uk> wrote:

> John Grehan raised an interesting question on ‘fraud’ in science relative
> to ‘CODA’ explanations in biogeography (‘Centers of Origin, Dispersal,
> and Adaptation’). I’m not entirely sure ‘fraud’ is the right word, but
> the issues addressed did remind me of a passage from Orwell:
>
>
>
> “At any given moment there is an orthodoxy, a body of ideas which it is
> assumed that all right-thinking people will accept without question. It is
> not exactly forbidden to say this, that or the other, but it is ‘not done’
> to say it, just as in mid-Victorian times it was ‘not done’ to mention
> trousers in the presence of a lady.”
>
>
>
> John later wrote:
>
>
>
> “In some past papers there have been some objections to the validity of
> panbiogeography, even by some vicariance cladists (!) who contrarily also
> claimed that panbiogeography is one of the foundations for the validity of
> vicariance biogeography (figure that one out)”.
>
>
>
> And Michael Heads added:
>
>
>
> “vicariance cladistics (Nelson, Platnick etc.) adopted the idea that
> topologically congruent area cladograms (phylogenies) for different groups
> were evidence for vicariance, incongruence meant chance dispersal. Croizat,
> Robin Craw and myself criticised these analyses in the early 1980s on the
> basis of their a priori areas ('Australia' 'South America' etc.), neglect
> of any geological history apart from continental drift, neglect of
> pre-drift differentiation, assumption of ancestral monomorphism etc”.
>
>
>
> Parts of these two summaries are inaccurate, as least with respect to how
> biogeography developed in certain quarters, but that can be passed over
> (for the moment) as detail. What is of significance is that both parties --
> panbiogeographers, ‘vicariance cladists’, never mind any definitions –
> agreed that ‘CODA’ was found to be faulty, if not entirely false.
>
>
>
> Orwell’s words above are from an unused (suppressed) preface to *Animal
> Farm* (published in 1945). This unused preface addressing “The Freedom of
> the Press” was not actually published until 1972 – perhaps, then,
> suppression is more appropriate.
>
>
> David
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at lists.ku.edu> on behalf of Michael Heads
> via Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu>
> *Sent:* 27 August 2023 01:52
> *To:* John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
> *Cc:* taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> *Subject:* Re: Taxacom: Definitions
>
> vicariance cladistics (Nelson, Platnick etc.) adopted the idea that
> topologically congruent area cladograms (phylogenies) for different groups
> were evidence for vicariance, incongruence meant chance dispersal. Croizat,
> Robin Craw and myself criticised these analyses in the early 1980s on the
> basis of their a priori areas ('Australia' 'South America' etc.), neglect
> of any geological history apart from continental drift, neglect of
> pre-drift differentiation, assumption of ancestral monomorphism etc.
>
> On Sun, Aug 27, 2023 at 12:06 PM John Grehan via Taxacom <
> taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
>
> > Hi Richard,
> >
> > No, I Cannot provide an authoritative definition. It used to be simple,
> > with vicariance biogeography, but then some morphing took place to
> > vicariance cladistics. I don't keep up with who does exactly what in
> terms
> > of definitions. I think Morrone may have generated a definition, but I
> > don't have it to hand.
> >
> > Cheers, John
> >
> > On Sat, Aug 26, 2023 at 3:36 PM Richard Jensen <rjensen at saintmarys.edu>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi John,
> > >
> > > In your most recent post, you referred to "vicariance cladists".  Could
> > > you please provide a means for someone to determine if a person is a
> > > vicariance cladist or not?  This may require your definitions of both
> > > terms, as the latter, in particular, has gone through several
> iterations
> > > over the past 40 years or so.  Or, am I permitted to apply my own
> > > definitions to each term? If the latter, then how will I know if we are
> > > writing about the same thing?  It seems the definitions we use are
> > > necessary to prevent a repeat of the "fraud" missives that currently
> > > dominated this list.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > > Richard
> > >
> > > On Sat, Aug 26, 2023 at 12:46 AM John Grehan via Taxacom <
> > > taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
> > >
> > >> So as not to confuse with other issues, I teased this item out. My
> view
> > >> about definitions not mattering is in the context that definitions
> only
> > >> state what one has already decided or what one thinks one already
> knows.
> > >> Within those constraints definitions may matter, but they are just a
> > >> summary of a certain knowledge or decisions, not a key to the unknown
> > >> which
> > >> is what science is concerned with. For example, if I were to define
> > >> evolution as space + time + form, that may well be very informative to
> > >> some, and not so informative to others. So, dealing with the unknown,
> > the
> > >> ascertainment of new knowledge, definitions really don't matter. But
> of
> > >> course thousands may think otherwise, and that's OK with me too.
> > >>
> > >> Cheers, John
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >>
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> > >> link, then the 'Ghost Moth Research page' link.
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> > >>
> > >> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity and admiring alliteration
> for
> > >> about 36 years, 1987-2023.
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Richard Jensen, Professor Emeritus
> > > Department of Biology
> > > Saint Mary's College
> > > Notre Dame, IN 46556
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
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> > link, then the 'Ghost Moth Research page' link.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Taxacom Mailing List
> >
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> >
> > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity and admiring alliteration for
> > about 36 years, 1987-2023.
> >
>
>
> --
> Dunedin, New Zealand.
>
> My books:
>
> *Biogeography and evolution in New Zealand. *Taylor and Francis/CRC, Boca
> Raton FL. 2017.
>
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.routledge.com%2FBiogeography-and-Evolution-in-New-Zealand%2FHeads%2Fp%2Fbook%2F9781498751872&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cdba4407a3e364588eb4b08dba730d321%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638287600383900974%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=WeHdHns9bzCQF7whk%2BuWQtNj4xZ2RwHteBTE9IxwSZw%3D&reserved=0
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>
>
> *Biogeography of Australasia:  A molecular analysis*. Cambridge University
> Press, Cambridge. 2014.
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cambridge.org%2F9781107041028&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cdba4407a3e364588eb4b08dba730d321%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638287600383900974%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=TNZKhvdUO1HvaJqfWU0%2FWeDwMN9ZcJykw4YOvRVgcJw%3D&reserved=0
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>
>
> *Molecular panbiogeography of the tropics. *University of California Press,
> Berkeley. 2012.
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ucpress.edu%2Fbook.php%3Fisbn%3D9780520271968&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cdba4407a3e364588eb4b08dba730d321%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638287600383900974%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=GCMp9Mn%2BkKA8twqa9abUTZiohbrzTI1qTxh0b6L0NRQ%3D&reserved=0
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>
>
> *Panbiogeography: Tracking the history of life*. Oxford University Press,
> New York. 1999. (With R. Craw and J. Grehan).
>
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> The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cdba4407a3e364588eb4b08dba730d321%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638287600384057200%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=zvSjQkDuGGNTVvaXT1XXvHhcXr%2BdCALEG7PuWget13Q%3D&reserved=0
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cdba4407a3e364588eb4b08dba730d321%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638287600384057200%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=zvSjQkDuGGNTVvaXT1XXvHhcXr%2BdCALEG7PuWget13Q%3D&reserved=0>
>
> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity and admiring alliteration for
> about 36 years, 1987-2023.
>

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https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhepialidsoftheworld.com.au%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cdba4407a3e364588eb4b08dba730d321%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638287600384057200%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=OvITkWHtE%2B3GsTTJyRd864gDps6r%2FlkD%2BMxUff%2BHThQ%3D&reserved=0 (use the 'visit archived web site'
link, then the 'Ghost Moth Research page' link.