Taxacom: Science fraud - Nature
Richard Jensen
rjensen at saintmarys.edu
Fri Aug 25 14:46:20 CDT 2023
This coming from someone who once responded to a hot Taxacom topic by
saying that "definitions don't matter"! Do you still believe that, John?
Cheers,
Richard J
On Fri, Aug 25, 2023 at 3:00 PM John Grehan via Taxacom <
taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
> Tony - which meaning of plausible? Presume the first, but with multiple
> meanings possible I thought worth checking with you.
>
> 1. Seemingly or apparently valid, likely, or acceptable; credible.
> 2. Persuasive or ingratiating, especially in an effort to deceive.
> 3. Worthy of being applauded; praiseworthy; commendable; ready.
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 25, 2023 at 2:35 PM Tony Rees <tonyrees49 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > OK John, thanks for the clarification. In any case your proposed
> "tectonic
> > correlations" with historic biogeographic events seem perfectly plausible
> > to me.
> >
> > Best - Tony
> >
> > Tony Rees, New South Wales, Australia
> > https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fabout.me%2FTonyRees&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3a2bc0418a7d494f570908dba5a3fc9c%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638285897302059811%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=gkdEW9dTzRrVSNHSyRH11fcXGPB8w%2BDzjX%2ByVn4YJ%2FA%3D&reserved=0
> >
> >
> > On Sat, 26 Aug 2023 at 02:37, John Grehan via Taxacom <
> > taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
> >
> >> Of course it's a 'rant', just like any other on this list, so no
> offense.
> >> Funding - agreed, that is a pertinent issue. For panbiogeography this is
> >> not only a problem where supporters of suppression and censorship are
> well
> >> funded, but when a particular perspective dominates funding sources,
> >> opposing research (panbiogeography) has no chance at all. I forgot to
> >> include in earlier posting that suppression and censorship is supported
> by
> >> at least one scientific institution - the Royal Society of New Zealand.
> >>
> >> On Fri, Aug 25, 2023 at 1:00 AM Stephen Thorpe <
> >> stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Tony,
> >> > I'm not sure what John is on about either ... probably just another
> >> > biogeographer rant (sorry John!)
> >> > However, John does raise some valid general issues, but nobody seems
> to
> >> > like to discuss these issues. One such issue concerns the notion of
> >> > "fraud", but I'm framing it as a funding issue. Is it fraud for a
> >> project's
> >> > merits to be misrepresented to funders by applicants, or is it simply
> >> > "worth a shot?" If a funded project's merits are subsequently found to
> >> have
> >> > been misrepresented in an accepted application, then should the
> >> funding be
> >> > refunded? Do funders even care? Does anybody even care? These are,
> >> > unfortunately, real issues.
> >> > Cheers, Stephen
> >> >
> >> > On Friday, 25 August 2023 at 04:43:53 pm NZST, Tony Rees <
> >> > tonyrees49 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Hi John,
> >> >
> >> > I am still confused as to the subject matter of your post. You wrote:
> >> > -------------------
> >> > Recently when I noted about ZooNova as a publication option, a Taxacom
> >> > colleague implied (oof list) that the journal was dubious because he
> >> > considered one (or more) papers to be dubious (in that person's
> >> judgement).
> >> > Here is a classic case of a 'Top' journal retracting a paper, showing
> >> that
> >> > the supposed 'prestige' of a journal has nothing necessarily to do
> with
> >> its
> >> > content. In this case it was picked up on because the paper in
> question
> >> > appears to have run afoul of a sufficient number of prominent or
> >> > influential researchers. In biogeography this does not happen, as the
> >> > prominent (powerful and influential) players all play to the fraud
> (that
> >> > being the misrepresentation of what CODA methods can or cannot do or
> >> > support). Power is everything in science.
> >> > -------------------
> >> >
> >> > First of all, the journal involved is not Nature, so the title of the
> >> > topic is misleading (as I already stated). Second, retracting a poor
> >> paper
> >> > written by persons with no credentials in climate science, in a
> >> non-climate
> >> > science journal, that makes large and unfounded claims regarding a
> >> > particular aspect of climate science, is simply an indication of poor
> >> (or
> >> > more likely, inappropriate) peer review, so does not seem to prove
> >> > anything. Then you introduce something to do with the lab leak theory
> of
> >> > COVID origin, which seems to indicate nothing as well, in addition to
> >> > flying in the face of all published evidence. Then you claim that the
> >> use
> >> > of CODA methods in biogeography are some sort of fraud, with some
> >> > implication that views to the contrary are being suppressed, despite
> the
> >> > fact that you have a paper already out in "Cladistics" in which such
> >> > matters are apparently discussed (https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdoi.org%2F10.1111%2Fcla.12537&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3a2bc0418a7d494f570908dba5a3fc9c%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638285897302059811%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Fd0Mn7ot24lpXWySt7XvCzaLhbWUB7sLeGoEYXnmLnc%3D&reserved=0).
> >> So
> >> > what is the overall point of this thread, or can it simply be put to
> >> rest?
> >> >
> >> > Not wishing to be unhelpful here, just somewhat confused...
> >> >
> >> > Regards - Tony
> >> >
> >> > Tony Rees, New South Wales, Australia
> >> > https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fabout.me%2FTonyRees&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3a2bc0418a7d494f570908dba5a3fc9c%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638285897302059811%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=gkdEW9dTzRrVSNHSyRH11fcXGPB8w%2BDzjX%2ByVn4YJ%2FA%3D&reserved=0
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Fri, 25 Aug 2023 at 10:03, John Grehan via Taxacom <
> >> > taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > I agree fully with Stephen about avoiding 'nefarious motivations',
> even
> >> > though they might be true. My focus is on the use of methodologies
> that
> >> > purport (functionally or operationally) one thing (empirical evidence)
> >> but
> >> > are another (imagined evidence). As a rhetorical question, one might
> ask
> >> > about papers by Waters and his cohort if they do not include
> >> consideration
> >> > panbiogeographic evidence where pertinent given that they have
> >> > publicly stated their support for suppression and censorship of
> >> > panbiogeography. Having made their declaration it would seem absence
> >> would
> >> > have to be intentional which raises the obvious inference. But I will
> >> > refrain from characterizing it a fraud since without an explicit
> >> statement
> >> > in each case one could really not know. On the other hand, other
> people
> >> > have stated their deliberate intention of not citing or discussing
> >> > panbiogeography, so in those cases their works would seem to be
> >> fraudulent.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Thu, Aug 24, 2023 at 6:34 PM Stephen Thorpe <
> >> stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz
> >> > >
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > Mike,
> >> > >
> >> > > The term fraud does have a broader meaning in English, not
> restricted
> >> to
> >> > > the legal definition. For example, it can be said of a person that
> he
> >> is
> >> > a
> >> > > fraud. If there is any ambiguity in contexts like the present one,
> >> then
> >> > it
> >> > > is perhaps best to use the phrase tantamount to fraud.
> >> > >
> >> > > Scientific studies and articles may in fact have an aspect of true
> >> legal
> >> > > fraud, if their merits were misrepresented to the funder. However,
> the
> >> > onus
> >> > > might be on the funder to properly evaluate applications and reject
> >> any
> >> > > misrepresentations/exaggerations. In practice though, all my
> >> experience
> >> > > suggests that there are few effective safeguards here. Personally, I
> >> > think
> >> > > that if an article is retracted by the publisher, then the funder
> >> should
> >> > > also be reimbursed for the waste of funding, but I suspect that
> >> doesn't
> >> > > happen!
> >> > >
> >> > > Funding issues aside, there are plenty of scientific articles out
> >> there
> >> > > that are simply of poor quality or just plain wrong (whether by
> >> > > incompetence or by design). Peer review doesn't seem to be very
> >> effective
> >> > > in practice. So, as with anything, one simply has to maintain a
> >> critical
> >> > > attitude and, if something is seen to be wrong, try to publicly
> >> explain
> >> > why
> >> > > it is wrong. Rants probably just do more harm than good.
> >> > >
> >> > > So, John's opinion on the matter does matter, as much as anyone
> >> else's,
> >> > > but he perhaps just needs to take a different approach and avoid
> >> > ascribing
> >> > > nefarious motivations, even though it might be true. Better to just
> >> > > critique the content, rather than going down the rabbit hole of
> >> possible
> >> > > motivations.
> >> > >
> >> > > Cheers, Stephen
> >> > >
> >> > > On Friday, 25 August 2023 at 09:51:17 am NZST, Michael A. Ivie via
> >> > Taxacom
> >> > > <taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > It does not matter that YOU consider it fraud, your opinion has no
> >> value
> >> > > as to the meaning of a criminal act, there is a definition of the
> word
> >> > > and crime, you don't just get to make things up. You can do that in
> >> > > biogeography, and that is not fraud either.
> >> > >
> >> > > Mike
> >> > >
> >> > > On 8/24/2023 3:28 PM, John Grehan wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > ***External Sender***
> >> > > >
> >> > > > If one sticks to fraud as 'intentional deception' then I would
> >> agree.
> >> > > > As I cannot provide proof of such intention, this would not apply.
> >> > > > CODA is an operational deception, and in that regard I consider it
> >> > > > fraudulent, definitions notwithstanding. Cheers, John
> >> > > >
> >> > > > On Thu, Aug 24, 2023 at 5:24 PM Michael A. Ivie <
> mivie at montana.edu>
> >> > > wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > What you describe does not fit the definition of Fraud.
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > On 8/24/2023 2:46 PM, John Grehan wrote:
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> ***External Sender***
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> Thanks for the word of caution Mike. I am referring to CODA
> as a
> >> > > >> fraud, but not making any assertions about individuals with
> >> > > >> respect to ' intentional perversion of truth'. CODA is itself
> >> > > >> fraudulent as it does not do what it is constructed to do - to
> >> > > >> provide scientific (empirical) evidence for conclusions about
> >> > > >> (chance) dispersal and vicariance. It is a fraudulent practice
> >> > > >> because it misrepresents fossil calibrated molecular
> divergence
> >> > > >> ages as actual or maximal (which is simply impossible
> >> > > >> empirically, it has to be imagined), uses recipes such as
> >> > > >> BioGeoBears that can render results in favor of chance
> dispersal
> >> > > >> when vicariance is an equally applicable mechanism, and it
> uses
> >> > > >> areas that have no empirical (scientifically verifiable)
> >> > > >> boundaries. Whether CODA supporters knowingly ignore this is
> >> > > >> another matter.
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> On Thu, Aug 24, 2023 at 4:35 PM Michael A. Ivie via Taxacom
> >> > > >> <taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> John,
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> Perhaps you need to look up the definition of fraud, as it
> >> is
> >> > > >> a word
> >> > > >> worthy of civil suit for slander:
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> "**intentional perversion of truth in order to induce
> >> another
> >> > > >> to part
> >> > > >> with something of value or to surrender a legal right"
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> Fraud is to get something of value, it is not the same as
> >> > > >> suppression.
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> perhaps you mean dispute or suppression.
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> Mike.
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> On 8/24/2023 2:16 PM, John Grehan via Taxacom wrote:
> >> > > >> > **External Sender**
> >> > > >> >
> >> > > >> > Yep - although CODA stands for center of origin,
> >> dispersal,
> >> > and
> >> > > >> > adaptation (adaptation as a means of dispersal, and
> >> > > >> dispersal as a
> >> > > >> > mechanism for differentiation). I see no problem
> bringing
> >> > > >> the matter up
> >> > > >> > here as many taxonomists have strong views about
> >> > > >> biogeography (haven't met
> >> > > >> > any that don't at least), and all the molecular
> >> > > >> taxonomists/systematists
> >> > > >> > practice CODA methods that don't do what they claim, or
> >> use
> >> > non
> >> > > >> > empirically non-existent units of analysis.
> >> > > >> >
> >> > > >> > On Thu, Aug 24, 2023 at 3:52 PM Tony
> >> > > >> Rees<tonyrees49 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > > >> >
> >> > > >> >> Hi John, an 800 word (all right, 791) extended
> quotation
> >> > > >> disputing the
> >> > > >> >> origins of COVID hardly qualifies as "not wanting to go
> >> > > >> down the COVID
> >> > > >> >> hole", but I will let it pass...
> >> > > >> >>
> >> > > >> >> I must confess the acronym CODA as related to
> >> biogeography
> >> > > >> is unfamiliar
> >> > > >> >> to me, however a brief google search led me here:
> "Biotic
> >> > > >> assembly in
> >> > > >> >> evolutionary biogeography: a case for integrative
> >> > > >> pluralism" by Juan J.
> >> > > >> >> Morrone. published in 2020 in "Frontiers of
> >> Biogeography",
> >> > > >> which claims to
> >> > > >> >> "... discuss the differences between the
> >> > > >> dispersal-vicariance model and the
> >> > > >> >> center of origin-dispersal-vicariance (CODA) and
> >> > > >> vicariance models". My
> >> > > >> >> guess is that if you have a problem with claimed fraud
> in
> >> > > >> "CODA practice",
> >> > > >> >> you should take it up in a forum or publication route
> >> > > >> relevant to that
> >> > > >> >> topic. Sorry.
> >> > > >> >>
> >> > > >> >> Tony Rees, New South Wales, Australia
> >> > > >> >> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fabout.me%2FTonyRees&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3a2bc0418a7d494f570908dba5a3fc9c%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638285897302059811%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=gkdEW9dTzRrVSNHSyRH11fcXGPB8w%2BDzjX%2ByVn4YJ%2FA%3D&reserved=0
> >> > > >> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fabout.me%2FTonyRees&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3a2bc0418a7d494f570908dba5a3fc9c%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638285897302059811%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=gkdEW9dTzRrVSNHSyRH11fcXGPB8w%2BDzjX%2ByVn4YJ%2FA%3D&reserved=0>
> >> > > >> >>
> >> > > >> >>
> >> > > >> >> On Fri, 25 Aug 2023 at 05:31, John
> >> > > >> Grehan<calabar.john at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > > >> >>
> >> > > >> >>> I would add that the examples given concern instances
> >> > > >> where the fraud
> >> > > >> >>> involved a minority but what happens when the fraud is
> >> > > >> committed by the
> >> > > >> >>> majority (as in CODA practice)?
> >> > > >> >>>
> >> > > >> >>> On Thu, Aug 24, 2023 at 3:26 PM John
> >> > > >> Grehan<calabar.john at gmail.com>
> >> > > >> >>> wrote:
> >> > > >> >>>
> >> > > >> >>>> Yeah - not wanting to go down the COVID hole, or any
> >> > > >> other subject.
> >> > > >> >>>> Just happened to be example issues. Cheers, John
> >> > > >> >>>>
> >> > > >> >>>> On Thu, Aug 24, 2023 at 3:04 PM Tony
> >> > > >> Rees<tonyrees49 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > > >> >>>>
> >> > > >> >>>>> Hi John, you wrote:
> >> > > >> >>>>>> If a climate paper was published in Nature or
> >> > > >> Science, which are not
> >> > > >> >>>>> climate journals, is this because the authors wished
> >> to
> >> > > >> avoid peer review?
> >> > > >> >>>>>
> >> > > >> >>>>> No, I think it is fair to say that these are special
> >> > > >> cases, that sit
> >> > > >> >>>>> somewhere above more discipline-specific journals,
> for
> >> > > >> articles deemed to
> >> > > >> >>>>> have high importance; and accordingly, would seek
> out
> >> > > >> the best (?) experts
> >> > > >> >>>>> in relevant fields for review of any particular
> >> > > >> article. That would be the
> >> > > >> >>>>> hope, anyway :)
> >> > > >> >>>>>
> >> > > >> >>>>> Not going to go down the rabbit hole of origins of
> >> > > >> Covid at this time,
> >> > > >> >>>>> however I note that the Rupert Murdoch-owned
> >> > > >> "Australian" was strongly
> >> > > >> >>>>> promoting views by a Sky News Journalist (who wrote
> a
> >> > > >> book on the same
> >> > > >> >>>>> subject last year) that everything is a cover-up and
> >> > > >> the virus escaped from
> >> > > >> >>>>> the Wuhan Lab. I fact checked her first 4 statements
> >> > > >> and they were all
> >> > > >> >>>>> incorrect, after which I lost faith in her analysis.
> >> > > >> For now I think the
> >> > > >> >>>>> best summary is probably at
> >> > > >> >>>>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FOrigin_of_COVID-19&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3a2bc0418a7d494f570908dba5a3fc9c%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638285897302059811%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=gGe9gKrmHTUuWbcMBN0gRALPYMQ2zxT0lmVhH%2FGy0Hc%3D&reserved=0
> >> > > >> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FOrigin_of_COVID-19&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3a2bc0418a7d494f570908dba5a3fc9c%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638285897302059811%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=gGe9gKrmHTUuWbcMBN0gRALPYMQ2zxT0lmVhH%2FGy0Hc%3D&reserved=0>,
> >> > > >> which Taxacom
> >> > > >> >>>>> readers are welcome to consult for more detail, or
> >> even
> >> > > >> amend if they
> >> > > >> >>>>> disagree with it.
> >> > > >> >>>>>
> >> > > >> >>>>> Regards - Tony
> >> > > >> >>>>> Tony Rees, New South Wales, Australia
> >> > > >> >>>>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fabout.me%2FTonyRees&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3a2bc0418a7d494f570908dba5a3fc9c%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638285897302059811%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=gkdEW9dTzRrVSNHSyRH11fcXGPB8w%2BDzjX%2ByVn4YJ%2FA%3D&reserved=0
> >> > > >> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fabout.me%2FTonyRees&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3a2bc0418a7d494f570908dba5a3fc9c%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638285897302059811%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=gkdEW9dTzRrVSNHSyRH11fcXGPB8w%2BDzjX%2ByVn4YJ%2FA%3D&reserved=0>
> >> > > >> >>>>>
> >> > > >> >>>>>
> >> > > >> >>>>> On Fri, 25 Aug 2023 at 04:43, John
> >> > > >> Grehan<calabar.john at gmail.com>
> >> > > >> >>>>> wrote:
> >> > > >> >>>>>
> >> > > >> >>>>>> That's an interesting quote about not publishing
> in a
> >> > > >> climate journal
> >> > > >> >>>>>> for a climate paper: "This is a common avenue taken
> >> by
> >> > > >> 'climate skeptics'
> >> > > >> >>>>>> in order to avoid peer review by real experts in
> the
> >> > > >> field." But just
> >> > > >> >>>>>> because a climate paper is not published in a
> climate
> >> > > >> journal does not mean
> >> > > >> >>>>>> that it can avoid 'peer' review. It depends on the
> >> > > >> journal and the intent
> >> > > >> >>>>>> of the editor to ensure that proper peer review
> takes
> >> > > >> place. If a climate
> >> > > >> >>>>>> paper was published in Nature or Science, which are
> >> > > >> not climate journals,
> >> > > >> >>>>>> is this because the authors wished to avoid peer
> >> review?
> >> > > >> >>>>>>
> >> > > >> >>>>>> On Thu, Aug 24, 2023 at 2:40 PM John
> >> > > >> Grehan<calabar.john at gmail.com>
> >> > > >> >>>>>> wrote:
> >> > > >> >>>>>>
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> Thanks for that clarification Tony. As for Nature
> >> > > >> "might have a
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> higher degree of scrutiny" - who knows. Saw this
> as
> >> > > >> yet unresolved issue
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> below, this time involving Nature. I don't keep
> >> > > >> regular track of such
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> questions, although perhaps I should, and write
> >> > > >> something on fraud in CODA
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> biogeography - but then who would publish such?
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> A growing number of people, including prominent
> >> > > >> scientists, are
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> calling for a full retraction of a high-profile
> >> study
> >> > > >> published in the
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> journal Nature in March 2020 that explored the
> >> > > >> origins of SARS-CoV-2.
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> The paper, whose authors included immunology and
> >> > > >> microbiology
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> professor Kristian G. Andersen, declared that
> >> > > >> evidence clearly showed that
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> SARS-CoV-2 did not originate from a laboratory.
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> “Our analyses clearly show that SARS-CoV-2 is not
> a
> >> > > >> laboratory
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> construct or a purposefully manipulated virus,”
> the
> >> > > >> authors wrote in
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> February.
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> Yet a trove of recently published documents reveal
> >> > > >> that Andersen and
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> his co-authors believed that the lab leak scenario
> >> > > >> was not just possible,
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> but likely.
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> “[The] main thing still in my mind is that the lab
> >> > > >> escape version of
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> this is so friggin’ likely to have happened
> because
> >> > > >> they were already doing
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> this type of work and the molecular data is fully
> >> > > >> consistent with that
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> scenario,” Andersen said to his colleagues,
> >> according
> >> > > >> to a report from
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> Public, which published a series of Slack messages
> >> > > >> between the authors.
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> Anderson was not the only author who privately
> >> > > >> expressed doubts that
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> the virus had natural origins. Public cataloged
> >> > > >> dozens of statements from
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> Andersen and his co-authors—Andrew Rambaut, W. Ian
> >> > > >> Lipkin, Edward C.
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> Holmes, and Robert F. Garry—between the dates
> >> January
> >> > > >> 31 and February 28,
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> 2020 suggesting that SARS-CoV-2 may have been
> >> > engineered.
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> ” …the fact that we are discussing this shows how
> >> > > >> plausible it is,”
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> Garry said of the lab-leak hypothesis.
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> “We unfortunately can’t refute the lab leak
> >> > > >> hypothesis,” Andersen
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> said on Feb. 20, several days after the authors
> >> > > >> published their pre-print.
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> To complicate matters further, new reporting from
> >> The
> >> > > >> Intercept
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> reveals that Anderson had an $8.9 million grant
> with
> >> > > >> NIH pending final
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> approval from Dr. Anthony Fauci when the Proximal
> >> > > >> Origin paper was
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> submitted.
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> ‘Fraud and Scientific Misconduct’?
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> The findings have led several prominent figures to
> >> > > >> accuse the authors
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> of outright deception.
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> Richard H. Ebright, the Board of Governors
> Professor
> >> > > >> of Chemistry and
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> Chemical Biology at Rutgers University, called the
> >> > > >> paper “scientific
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> fraud.”
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> “The 2020 ‘Proximal Origin’ paper falsely claimed
> >> > > >> science showed
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> COVID-19 did not have a lab origin,” tweeted
> >> Ebright.
> >> > > >> “Newly released
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> messages from the authors show they did not
> believe
> >> > > >> the conclusions of the
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> paper and show the paper is the product of
> >> scientific
> >> > > >> fraud and scientific
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> misconduct.”
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> Ebright and Silver are among those pushing a
> >> petition
> >> > > >> urging Nature
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> to retract the article in light of these findings.
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> Among those to sign the petition was Neil
> Harrison,
> >> a
> >> > > >> professor of
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> anesthesiology and molecular pharmacology at
> >> Columbia
> >> > > >> University.
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> “Virologists and their allies have produced a
> number
> >> > > >> of papers that
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> purport to show that the virus was of natural
> origin
> >> > > >> and that the pandemic
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> began at the Huanan seafood market,” Harrison told
> >> > > >> The Telegraph. “In fact
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> there is no evidence for either of these
> >> conclusions,
> >> > > >> and the email and
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> Slack messages among the authors show that they
> knew
> >> > > >> at the time that this
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> was the case.”
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> Only ‘Expressing Opinions’?
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> Dr. Joao Monteiro, chief editor of Nature, has
> >> > > >> rebuffed calls for a
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> retraction, The Telegraph notes, saying the
> authors
> >> > > >> were merely “expressing
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> opinions.”
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> This claim is dubious at best. From the beginning,
> >> > > >> the Proximal
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> Origin study was presented as authoritative and
> >> > > >> scientific. Jeremy Farrar,
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> a British medical researcher and now the chief
> >> > > >> scientist at the World
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> Health Organization (WHO), told USA Today that
> >> > > >> Proximal Origin was the
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> “most important research on the genomic
> epidemiology
> >> > > >> of the origins of this
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> virus to date.”
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> Dr. Anthony Fauci, speaking from the White House
> >> > > >> podium in April
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> 2020, cited the study as evidence that the
> mutations
> >> > > >> of the virus were
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> “totally consistent with a jump from a species of
> an
> >> > > >> animal to a human.”
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> Fact-check organizations were soon citing the
> study
> >> > > >> as proof that COVID-19
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> “could not have been manipulated.”
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> Far from being presented as a handful of
> scientists
> >> > > >> “expressing
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> opinions,” the Proximal Origin study was treated
> as
> >> > > >> gospel, a dogma that
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> could not even be questioned. This allowed social
> >> > > >> media companies (working
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> hand-in-hand with government agencies) to censor
> >> > > >> people who publicly stated
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> what Andersen and his colleagues were saying
> >> > > >> privately—that it seemed
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> plausible that SARS-CoV-2 came from the laboratory
> >> in
> >> > > >> Wuhan that
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> experimented on coronaviruses and had a checkered
> >> > > >> safety record.
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> Indeed, even as media and government officials
> used
> >> > > >> the Proximal
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> Origin study to smear people as conspiracy
> theorists
> >> > > >> for speculating that
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> COVID-19 might have emerged from the Wuhan lab, a
> >> > > >> Defense Intelligence
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> Agency study commissioned by the government
> >> > > >> questioned the study’s
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> scientific rigor.
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> “The arguments that Andersen et al. use to
> support a
> >> > > >> natural-origin
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> scenario for SARS CoV-2 are based not on
> scientific
> >> > > >> analysis, but on
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> unwarranted assumptions,” the now-declassified
> paper
> >> > > >> concluded. “In fact,
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> the features of SARS-CoV-2 noted by Andersen et
> al.
> >> > > >> are consistent with
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> another scenario: that SARS-CoV-2 was developed
> in a
> >> > > >> laboratory…”
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 24, 2023 at 2:22 PM Tony
> >> > > >> Rees<tonyrees49 at gmail.com>
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>> Hi John,
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>> I took a look at the paper which is online and
> open
> >> > > >> access. I must
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>> say when I saw it at the time of original
> >> > > >> publication I thought its main
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>> conclusions very odd and at variance with almost
> >> all
> >> > > >> other research on the
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>> topic.
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>> Just to be clear per your thread title - the
> paper
> >> > > >> does not appear
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>> in "Nature" (which I imagine might have a higher
> >> > > >> degree of scrutiny), but
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>> in "The European Physical Journal Plus" which is
> a
> >> > > >> different outlet, albeit
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>> from the same publisher.
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>> Best - Tony
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>> Tony Rees, New South Wales, Australia
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fabout.me%2FTonyRees&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3a2bc0418a7d494f570908dba5a3fc9c%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638285897302059811%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=gkdEW9dTzRrVSNHSyRH11fcXGPB8w%2BDzjX%2ByVn4YJ%2FA%3D&reserved=0
> >> > > >> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fabout.me%2FTonyRees&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3a2bc0418a7d494f570908dba5a3fc9c%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638285897302059811%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=gkdEW9dTzRrVSNHSyRH11fcXGPB8w%2BDzjX%2ByVn4YJ%2FA%3D&reserved=0>
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>> On Fri, 25 Aug 2023 at 03:59, John Grehan via
> >> Taxacom
> >> > <
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>> taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>> Recently when I noted about ZooNova as a
> >> > > >> publication option, a
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>> Taxacom
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>> colleague implied (oof list) that the journal
> was
> >> > > >> dubious because he
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>> considered one (or more) papers to be dubious
> (in
> >> > > >> that person's
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>> judgement).
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>> Here is a classic case of a 'Top' journal
> >> > > >> retracting a paper,
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>> showing that
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>> the supposed 'prestige' of a journal has nothing
> >> > > >> necessarily to do
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>> with its
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>> content. In this case it was picked up on
> because
> >> > > >> the paper in
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>> question
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>> appears to have run afoul of a sufficient number
> >> of
> >> > > >> prominent or
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>> influential researchers. In biogeography this
> does
> >> > > >> not happen, as
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>> the
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>> prominent (powerful and influential) players all
> >> > > >> play to the fraud
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>> (that
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>> being the misrepresentation of what CODA methods
> >> > > >> can or cannot do or
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>> support). Power is everything in science.
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>> Top science publisher Springer Nature said it
> has
> >> > > >> withdrawn a study
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>> that
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>> presented misleading conclusions on climate
> change
> >> > > >> impacts after an
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>> investigation prompted by an AFP inquiry.
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>> AFP reported in September 2022 on concerns over
> >> the
> >> > > >> peer-reviewed
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>> study by
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>> four Italian scientists that appeared earlier
> that
> >> > > >> year in the
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>> European
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>> Physical Journal Plus, published by Springer
> >> Nature.
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>> The study had drawn positive attention from
> >> > > >> climate-sceptic media.
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>> The paper, titled "A critical assessment of
> >> extreme
> >> > > >> events trends
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>> in times
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>> of global warming", purported to review data on
> >> > > >> possible changes in
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>> the
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>> frequency or intensity of rainfall, cyclones,
> >> > > >> tornadoes, droughts
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>> and other
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>> extreme weather events.
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>> Several climate scientists contacted by AFP said
> >> > > >> the study
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>> manipulated
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>> data, cherry picked facts and ignored others
> that
> >> > > >> would contradict
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>> their
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>> assertions, prompting the publisher to launch an
> >> > > >> internal review.
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>> "The Editors and publishers concluded that they
> no
> >> > > >> longer had
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>> confidence in
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>> the results and conclusions of the article,"
> >> > > >> Springer Nature told
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>> AFP in an
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>> email late Wednesday.
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>> The journal's editors published an online note
> >> > > >> stating that the
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>> paper was
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>> retracted due to concerns over "the selection of
> >> > > >> the data, the
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>> analysis and
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>> the resulting conclusions".
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>> --
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhepialidsoftheworld.com.au%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3a2bc0418a7d494f570908dba5a3fc9c%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638285897302059811%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=%2F9ynnTJYQB4vmz7bpf6BkX65caB2ajQneyV8QcNbiSE%3D&reserved=0
> >> > > >> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhepialidsoftheworld.com.au%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3a2bc0418a7d494f570908dba5a3fc9c%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638285897302059811%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=%2F9ynnTJYQB4vmz7bpf6BkX65caB2ajQneyV8QcNbiSE%3D&reserved=0>
> >> > > >> (use the 'visit archived web
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>> site'
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>> link, then the 'Ghost Moth Research page' link.
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>> Taxacom Mailing List
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions
> >> > > >> to:taxacom at lists.ku.edu <mailto:to%3Ataxacom at lists.ku.edu
> >
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>> For list information; to subscribe or
> unsubscribe,
> >> > > >> visit:
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>> https://lists.ku.edu/listinfo/taxacom
> >> > > >> <https://lists.ku.edu/listinfo/taxacom>
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>> You can reach the person managing the list at:
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>> taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>> The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be
> >> > > >> searched at:
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3a2bc0418a7d494f570908dba5a3fc9c%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638285897302059811%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=JrES8Ov3QeNxwlATejEUydFR8qm3AwgH5%2FzWD%2BBw5Vg%3D&reserved=0
> >> > > >> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3a2bc0418a7d494f570908dba5a3fc9c%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638285897302059811%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=JrES8Ov3QeNxwlATejEUydFR8qm3AwgH5%2FzWD%2BBw5Vg%3D&reserved=0>
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity and
> >> > admiring
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>> alliteration for about 36 years, 1987-2023.
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> --
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhepialidsoftheworld.com.au%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3a2bc0418a7d494f570908dba5a3fc9c%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638285897302059811%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=%2F9ynnTJYQB4vmz7bpf6BkX65caB2ajQneyV8QcNbiSE%3D&reserved=0
> >> > > >> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhepialidsoftheworld.com.au%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3a2bc0418a7d494f570908dba5a3fc9c%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638285897302059811%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=%2F9ynnTJYQB4vmz7bpf6BkX65caB2ajQneyV8QcNbiSE%3D&reserved=0>
> >> > > >> (use the 'visit archived web
> >> > > >> >>>>>>> site' link, then the 'Ghost Moth Research page'
> >> link.
> >> > > >> >>>>>>>
> >> > > >> >>>>>>
> >> > > >> >>>>>> --
> >> > > >> >>>>>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhepialidsoftheworld.com.au%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3a2bc0418a7d494f570908dba5a3fc9c%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638285897302059811%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=%2F9ynnTJYQB4vmz7bpf6BkX65caB2ajQneyV8QcNbiSE%3D&reserved=0
> >> > > >> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhepialidsoftheworld.com.au%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3a2bc0418a7d494f570908dba5a3fc9c%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638285897302216027%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ukHZim1UCsrDHyxl08pmI%2FHmD8gzGtc7nDuz%2Fk1l7E4%3D&reserved=0>
> >> > > >> (use the 'visit archived web
> >> > > >> >>>>>> site' link, then the 'Ghost Moth Research page'
> link.
> >> > > >> >>>>>>
> >> > > >> >>>> --
> >> > > >> >>>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhepialidsoftheworld.com.au%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3a2bc0418a7d494f570908dba5a3fc9c%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638285897302216027%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ukHZim1UCsrDHyxl08pmI%2FHmD8gzGtc7nDuz%2Fk1l7E4%3D&reserved=0
> >> > > >> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhepialidsoftheworld.com.au%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3a2bc0418a7d494f570908dba5a3fc9c%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638285897302216027%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ukHZim1UCsrDHyxl08pmI%2FHmD8gzGtc7nDuz%2Fk1l7E4%3D&reserved=0>
> >> > > >> (use the 'visit archived web site'
> >> > > >> >>>> link, then the 'Ghost Moth Research page' link.
> >> > > >> >>>>
> >> > > >> >>>
> >> > > >> >>> --
> >> > > >> >>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhepialidsoftheworld.com.au%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3a2bc0418a7d494f570908dba5a3fc9c%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638285897302216027%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ukHZim1UCsrDHyxl08pmI%2FHmD8gzGtc7nDuz%2Fk1l7E4%3D&reserved=0
> >> > > >> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhepialidsoftheworld.com.au%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3a2bc0418a7d494f570908dba5a3fc9c%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638285897302216027%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ukHZim1UCsrDHyxl08pmI%2FHmD8gzGtc7nDuz%2Fk1l7E4%3D&reserved=0>
> >> > > >> (use the 'visit archived web site'
> >> > > >> >>> link, then the 'Ghost Moth Research page' link.
> >> > > >> >>>
> >> > > >> > --
> >> > > >> > https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhepialidsoftheworld.com.au%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3a2bc0418a7d494f570908dba5a3fc9c%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638285897302216027%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ukHZim1UCsrDHyxl08pmI%2FHmD8gzGtc7nDuz%2Fk1l7E4%3D&reserved=0
> >> > > >> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhepialidsoftheworld.com.au%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3a2bc0418a7d494f570908dba5a3fc9c%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638285897302216027%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ukHZim1UCsrDHyxl08pmI%2FHmD8gzGtc7nDuz%2Fk1l7E4%3D&reserved=0>
> >> > > >> (use the 'visit archived web site'
> >> > > >> > link, then the 'Ghost Moth Research page' link.
> >> > > >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > > >> > Taxacom Mailing List
> >> > > >> >
> >> > > >> > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions
> >> > > >> to:taxacom at lists.ku.edu <mailto:to%3Ataxacom at lists.ku.edu
> >
> >> > > >> > For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe,
> >> > > >> visit:https://lists.ku.edu/listinfo/taxacom
> >> > > >> <https://lists.ku.edu/listinfo/taxacom>
> >> > > >> > You can reach the person managing the list
> >> > > >> at:taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
> >> > > >> <mailto:at%3Ataxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu>
> >> > > >> > The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched
> >> > > >> at:https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3a2bc0418a7d494f570908dba5a3fc9c%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638285897302216027%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=z%2Fs6vK8jrP8HSl3jHR%2Frdi2q16d47Jhu0oq5sJ0ihD0%3D&reserved=0
> >> > > >> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3a2bc0418a7d494f570908dba5a3fc9c%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638285897302216027%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=z%2Fs6vK8jrP8HSl3jHR%2Frdi2q16d47Jhu0oq5sJ0ihD0%3D&reserved=0>
> >> > > >> >
> >> > > >> > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity and admiring
> >> > > >> alliteration for about 36 years, 1987-2023.
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> --
> >> > > >> __________________________________________________
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> NOTE: two addresses with different Zip Codes depending on
> >> > > >> carriers
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> US Post Office Address:
> >> > > >> Montana Entomology Collection
> >> > > >> Marsh Labs, Room 50
> >> > > >> PO Box 173145
> >> > > >> Montana State University
> >> > > >> Bozeman, MT 59717
> >> > > >> USA
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> UPS, FedEx, DHL Address:
> >> > > >> Montana Entomology Collection
> >> > > >> Marsh Labs, Room 50
> >> > > >> 1911 West Lincoln Street
> >> > > >> Montana State University
> >> > > >> Bozeman, MT 59718
> >> > > >> USA
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> (406) 994-4610 (voice)
> >> > > >> (406) 994-6029 (FAX)
> >> > > >> mivie at montana.edu
> >> > > >> _______________________________________________
> >> > > >> Taxacom Mailing List
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to:
> >> taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> >> > > >> For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> >> > > >> https://lists.ku.edu/listinfo/taxacom
> >> > > >> <https://lists.ku.edu/listinfo/taxacom>
> >> > > >> You can reach the person managing the list at:
> >> > > >> taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
> >> > > >> The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> >> > > >> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3a2bc0418a7d494f570908dba5a3fc9c%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638285897302216027%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=z%2Fs6vK8jrP8HSl3jHR%2Frdi2q16d47Jhu0oq5sJ0ihD0%3D&reserved=0
> >> > > >> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3a2bc0418a7d494f570908dba5a3fc9c%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638285897302216027%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=z%2Fs6vK8jrP8HSl3jHR%2Frdi2q16d47Jhu0oq5sJ0ihD0%3D&reserved=0>
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity and admiring
> >> > > >> alliteration for about 36 years, 1987-2023.
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> --
> >> > > >> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhepialidsoftheworld.com.au%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3a2bc0418a7d494f570908dba5a3fc9c%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638285897302216027%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ukHZim1UCsrDHyxl08pmI%2FHmD8gzGtc7nDuz%2Fk1l7E4%3D&reserved=0
> >> > > >> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhepialidsoftheworld.com.au%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3a2bc0418a7d494f570908dba5a3fc9c%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638285897302216027%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ukHZim1UCsrDHyxl08pmI%2FHmD8gzGtc7nDuz%2Fk1l7E4%3D&reserved=0> (use
> >> > > >> the 'visit archived web site' link, then the 'Ghost Moth
> >> Research
> >> > > >> page' link.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > --
> >> > > > __________________________________________________
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > NOTE: two addresses with different Zip Codes depending on
> >> carriers
> >> > > >
> >> > > > US Post Office Address:
> >> > > > Montana Entomology Collection
> >> > > > Marsh Labs, Room 50
> >> > > > PO Box 173145
> >> > > > Montana State University
> >> > > > Bozeman, MT 59717
> >> > > > USA
> >> > > >
> >> > > > UPS, FedEx, DHL Address:
> >> > > > Montana Entomology Collection
> >> > > > Marsh Labs, Room 50
> >> > > > 1911 West Lincoln Street
> >> > > > Montana State University
> >> > > > Bozeman, MT 59718
> >> > > > USA
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > (406) 994-4610 (voice)
> >> > > > (406) 994-6029 (FAX)
> >> > > > mivie at montana.edu
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > --
> >> > > > https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhepialidsoftheworld.com.au%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3a2bc0418a7d494f570908dba5a3fc9c%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638285897302216027%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ukHZim1UCsrDHyxl08pmI%2FHmD8gzGtc7nDuz%2Fk1l7E4%3D&reserved=0
> >> > > > <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhepialidsoftheworld.com.au%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3a2bc0418a7d494f570908dba5a3fc9c%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638285897302216027%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ukHZim1UCsrDHyxl08pmI%2FHmD8gzGtc7nDuz%2Fk1l7E4%3D&reserved=0> (use
> >> > > > the 'visit archived web site' link, then the 'Ghost Moth Research
> >> > > > page' link.
> >> > >
> >> > > --
> >> > > __________________________________________________
> >> > >
> >> > > Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
> >> > >
> >> > > NOTE: two addresses with different Zip Codes depending on carriers
> >> > >
> >> > > US Post Office Address:
> >> > > Montana Entomology Collection
> >> > > Marsh Labs, Room 50
> >> > > PO Box 173145
> >> > > Montana State University
> >> > > Bozeman, MT 59717
> >> > > USA
> >> > >
> >> > > UPS, FedEx, DHL Address:
> >> > > Montana Entomology Collection
> >> > > Marsh Labs, Room 50
> >> > > 1911 West Lincoln Street
> >> > > Montana State University
> >> > > Bozeman, MT 59718
> >> > > USA
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > (406) 994-4610 (voice)
> >> > > (406) 994-6029 (FAX)
> >> > > mivie at montana.edu
> >> > > _______________________________________________
> >> > > Taxacom Mailing List
> >> > >
> >> > > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> >> > > For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> >> > > https://lists.ku.edu/listinfo/taxacom
> >> > > You can reach the person managing the list at:
> >> > taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
> >> > > The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> >> > > https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3a2bc0418a7d494f570908dba5a3fc9c%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638285897302216027%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=z%2Fs6vK8jrP8HSl3jHR%2Frdi2q16d47Jhu0oq5sJ0ihD0%3D&reserved=0
> >> > >
> >> > > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity and admiring alliteration
> >> for
> >> > > about 36 years, 1987-2023.
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhepialidsoftheworld.com.au%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3a2bc0418a7d494f570908dba5a3fc9c%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638285897302216027%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ukHZim1UCsrDHyxl08pmI%2FHmD8gzGtc7nDuz%2Fk1l7E4%3D&reserved=0 (use the 'visit archived web
> site'
> >> > link, then the 'Ghost Moth Research page' link.
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Taxacom Mailing List
> >> >
> >> > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> >> > For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> >> > https://lists.ku.edu/listinfo/taxacom
> >> > You can reach the person managing the list at:
> >> taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
> >> > The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> >> > https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3a2bc0418a7d494f570908dba5a3fc9c%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638285897302216027%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=z%2Fs6vK8jrP8HSl3jHR%2Frdi2q16d47Jhu0oq5sJ0ihD0%3D&reserved=0
> >> >
> >> > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity and admiring alliteration
> for
> >> > about 36 years, 1987-2023.
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> --
> >> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhepialidsoftheworld.com.au%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3a2bc0418a7d494f570908dba5a3fc9c%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638285897302216027%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ukHZim1UCsrDHyxl08pmI%2FHmD8gzGtc7nDuz%2Fk1l7E4%3D&reserved=0 (use the 'visit archived web site'
> >> link, then the 'Ghost Moth Research page' link.
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Taxacom Mailing List
> >>
> >> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> >> For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> >> https://lists.ku.edu/listinfo/taxacom
> >> You can reach the person managing the list at:
> taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
> >> The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> >> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3a2bc0418a7d494f570908dba5a3fc9c%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638285897302216027%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=z%2Fs6vK8jrP8HSl3jHR%2Frdi2q16d47Jhu0oq5sJ0ihD0%3D&reserved=0
> >>
> >> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity and admiring alliteration for
> >> about 36 years, 1987-2023.
> >>
> >
>
> --
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhepialidsoftheworld.com.au%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3a2bc0418a7d494f570908dba5a3fc9c%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638285897302216027%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ukHZim1UCsrDHyxl08pmI%2FHmD8gzGtc7nDuz%2Fk1l7E4%3D&reserved=0 (use the 'visit archived web site'
> link, then the 'Ghost Moth Research page' link.
> _______________________________________________
> Taxacom Mailing List
>
> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> https://lists.ku.edu/listinfo/taxacom
> You can reach the person managing the list at: taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
> The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C3a2bc0418a7d494f570908dba5a3fc9c%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638285897302216027%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=z%2Fs6vK8jrP8HSl3jHR%2Frdi2q16d47Jhu0oq5sJ0ihD0%3D&reserved=0
>
> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity and admiring alliteration for
> about 36 years, 1987-2023.
>
--
Richard Jensen, Professor Emeritus
Department of Biology
Saint Mary's College
Notre Dame, IN 46556
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