Taxacom: "Early Permian" angiosperms... real or not real taxa/names?

Tue Jun 7 00:55:08 CDT 2022

OK, done... see IRMNG record for Peltaspermales:
https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irmng.org%2Faphia.php%3Fp%3Dtaxdetails%26id%3D11295&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C37eed8a47c29489cd65b08da484a5165%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637901781291399822%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=t7P0tLK4jfgecd0ypznHKdM%2BjsstEEG0kpeZ%2Facrd%2Fs%3D&reserved=0.

Now to look at the other taxa erected in that volume!! (possibly more of
the same...)

Regards - Tony

Tony Rees, New South Wales, Australia
https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fabout.me%2FTonyRees&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C37eed8a47c29489cd65b08da484a5165%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637901781291399822%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=wB8Z2j5MMM340L49yowsyC5ocL2OeMl31wxod2%2B4ccY%3D&reserved=0

On Tue, 7 Jun 2022 at 13:42, Michael Heads <m.j.heads at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Tony,
>
> Yes, assigning it to Peltaspermales might be more useful.
>
> On Tue, Jun 7, 2022 at 10:51 AM Tony Rees <tonyrees49 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Michael,
>>
>> You wrote:
>>
>> > 'pteridosperms' are now generally accepted as a polyphyletic mess...
>>
>> I do not doubt that you are correct here... in this instance the affinity
>> seems most likely to be with the Peltaspermales/Peltaspermaceae, one of
>> which (Peltaspermum retensorium) is associated with "polliniferous
>> organs... of the Permotheca type. These synangiate pollen organs consist of
>> 4 to 9 pollen sacs attached to a small disc, which is up to 15 mm in
>> diameter (Plate II, 2, 3, 5-7; Figs. 6E, 7A,B, 8C). The individual pollen
>> sacs can slightly fused basally (Plate II, 2, 3, 7) or almost entirely free
>> (Plate II, 5, 6); they are always free apically." (Naugolnykh & Kerp,1996,
>> Aspects of Permian palaeobotany and palynology. XV. On the oldest known
>> peltasperms with radially symmetrical ovuliferous discs from the Kungurian
>> (uppermost Lower Permian) of the Fore-Urals (Russia).
>> doi:10.1016/0034-6667(95)00066-6 ), which look just like little flowers
>> (their fig. 7)... Also noting that Asterodiscus disparis Zalessky, 1937,
>> considered by Wachtler to be included in his suite of Early Permian
>> angiosperms, is listed by Naugolnykh & Kerp as a "probable synonym" of
>> Peltaspermum retensorium (the name Asterodiscus is also illegitimate
>> anyway, being preoccupied by a genus of diatom).
>>
>> I have not yet checked Zalessky's Aspidion decemnervium, also cited by
>> Wachtler as a pre-Cretaceous angiosperm, but will attempt to chase it down
>> further.
>>
>> So maybe in my database master taxonomy it would be best to allocate
>> Wachtler's new taxa to Peltaspermales in particular rather than
>> Pteridospermopsida in general, which as you say is a rather "broad church"
>> at present, and may indeed be split further along phylogenetic lines at
>> some point in the future.
>>
>> Tony Rees, New South Wales, Australia
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fabout.me%2FTonyRees&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C37eed8a47c29489cd65b08da484a5165%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637901781291399822%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=wB8Z2j5MMM340L49yowsyC5ocL2OeMl31wxod2%2B4ccY%3D&reserved=0
>>
>>
>> On Tue, 7 Jun 2022 at 06:52, Michael Heads <m.j.heads at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Tony,
>>> 'pteridosperms' are now generally accepted as a polyphyletic mess - in
>>> practice the term just means 'early seed plant'. Many had 'flower-like'
>>> structures, but if you don't have a precise idea of what a flower is, this
>>> doesn't really help.
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jun 7, 2022 at 7:35 AM Tony Rees via Taxacom <
>>> taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thanks Paul... on that basis I will proceed with entering Wachtler's
>>>> names
>>>> into my system as "accepted" at this time (infers "validly published" in
>>>> botany), until/unless they are either stated to be not validly
>>>> published,
>>>> or are synonymized, in later treatments.
>>>>
>>>> Reading a little further, I am now inclined to list them as unallocated
>>>> pteridosperms: as per S.V. Naugolnykh, 2013, "New male reproductive
>>>> organs
>>>> of gymnosperms Permotheca colovratica sp. nov. from the Lower Permian of
>>>> the Ural Mountains", Paleontological Journal, 2013, Vol. 47, No. 1, pp.
>>>> 114–126 (available via researchgate), from the same locality and
>>>> material;
>>>> Permotheca colovratica and several others (but not the type species) is
>>>> listed in Peltaspermales (Pterospermopsida) by J. Zhang et al., 2021,
>>>> "The
>>>> Eco-Plant model and its implication on Mesozoic dispersed sporomorphs
>>>> for
>>>> Bryophytes, Pteridophytes, and Gymnosperms", Review of Palaeobotany and
>>>> Palynology. 293: 104503., doi: 10.1016/j.revpalbo.2021.104503
>>>>
>>>> Despite being claimed as an early angiosperm by Wachtler (p. 26), P.
>>>> colovratica  has bisaccate in-situ pollen of the Falcisporites type
>>>> (also
>>>> some Alisporites) which is clearly gymnospermous; Alisporites is
>>>> "considered to be characteristic of peltasperms in the broad sense
>>>> (sensu
>>>> Meyen, 1987) and mostly Late Paleozoic and Mesozoic conifers of the
>>>> families Ullmanniaceae, Voltziaceae, and Podocarpaceae (Balme, 1995)"
>>>> according to  Naugolnykh, p. 122. Naugolnykh also notes that "Pollen
>>>> extracted from the sporangium of Permotheca colovratica sp. nov. is
>>>> similar
>>>> to disperse pollen grains (Pl. 2, figs. 2–4) abundant in the Permian
>>>> deposits of the ForeUrals" -  in other words the stratigraphic
>>>> distribution
>>>> of the (apparently gymnosperm) "flowers" matches the stratigraphic
>>>> distribution of the (gymnosperm) pollen grains with which they are
>>>> associated (which Wachtler does not consider), not anything
>>>> angiospermous
>>>> (which latter might corroborate Wachtler's assignment/s, if found).
>>>>
>>>> Regards - Tony
>>>>
>>>> Naugolnykh's paper is well worth a look for an alternative view
>>>> regarding
>>>> the classification of these Early Permian, flower-like structures.
>>>>
>>>> Regards - Tony
>>>>
>>>> Tony Rees, New South Wales, Australia
>>>>
>>>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fabout.me%2FTonyRees&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C37eed8a47c29489cd65b08da484a5165%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637901781291399822%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=wB8Z2j5MMM340L49yowsyC5ocL2OeMl31wxod2%2B4ccY%3D&reserved=0
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, 7 Jun 2022 at 02:45, Paul van Rijckevorsel via Taxacom <
>>>> taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > Yes, it seems likely that these names will squeeze by
>>>> > from a nomenclatural viewpoint. Although a diagnosis
>>>> > like "It has a compound of stamina with several
>>>> > filaments and anthers grouped into a flower-structure"
>>>> > by itself will be inadequate.
>>>> >
>>>> > In general, for nomenclature the exact taxonomic
>>>> > position hypothesized by the author is of no importance.
>>>> > If the conditions for valid publication are met, then it
>>>> > does not matter if later it turns out that the author got
>>>> > the taxonomy wrong, and that it concerns, say, animals
>>>> > instead of plants. The name itself will stand, even if it
>>>> > becomes clear that it does not stand for anything.
>>>> >
>>>> > Paul
>>>> >
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Taxacom Mailing List
>>>>
>>>> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
>>>> For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
>>>> https://lists.ku.edu/listinfo/taxacom
>>>> You can reach the person managing the list at:
>>>> taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
>>>> The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
>>>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C37eed8a47c29489cd65b08da484a5165%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637901781291399822%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=4FUEzmWOmwyQcY%2BDXJl8KIpwCwlWF%2Bhr6BvVNz82yWM%3D&reserved=0
>>>>
>>>> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years,
>>>> 1987-2022.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Dunedin, New Zealand.
>>>
>>> My books:
>>>
>>> *Biogeography and evolution in New Zealand. *Taylor and Francis/CRC,
>>> Boca Raton FL. 2017.
>>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.routledge.com%2FBiogeography-and-Evolution-in-New-Zealand%2FHeads%2Fp%2Fbook%2F9781498751872&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C37eed8a47c29489cd65b08da484a5165%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637901781291556068%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=IyUWa5az4GRzmxrjAbdFai%2FiTA8XFJwDAnIr5Qay6VI%3D&reserved=0
>>>
>>>
>>> *Biogeography of Australasia:  A molecular analysis*. Cambridge
>>> University Press, Cambridge. 2014. https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cambridge.org%2F9781107041028&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C37eed8a47c29489cd65b08da484a5165%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637901781291556068%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=yCvAnAGH55HeP2wsTebIdiX3rRlSCf8TSGDimGRyXbk%3D&reserved=0
>>>
>>>
>>> *Molecular panbiogeography of the tropics. *University of California
>>> Press, Berkeley. 2012. https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ucpress.edu%2Fbook.php%3Fisbn%3D9780520271968&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C37eed8a47c29489cd65b08da484a5165%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637901781291556068%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=V%2FN89YaEirg8fgvF9mNr4WDLGCSPT28WPonEKSeLxXM%3D&reserved=0
>>>
>>>
>>> *Panbiogeography: Tracking the history of life*. Oxford University
>>> Press, New York. 1999. (With R. Craw and J. Grehan).
>>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbooks.google.co.nz%2Fbooks%3Fid%3DBm0_QQ3Z6GUC&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C37eed8a47c29489cd65b08da484a5165%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637901781291556068%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=KDUP%2Buh1yj9fjdZMYDbfT6cXf1GrbtPibo1enNvm2C0%3D&reserved=0
>>> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbooks.google.co.nz%2Fbooks%3Fid%3DBm0_QQ3Z6GUC%26dq%3Dpanbiogeography%26source%3Dgbs_navlinks_s&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C37eed8a47c29489cd65b08da484a5165%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637901781291556068%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Q8GpjtkuhPjOSQp5VKyCunNSxbo9AnvEfWKhERTRHEE%3D&reserved=0>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
> --
> Dunedin, New Zealand.
>
> My books:
>
> *Biogeography and evolution in New Zealand. *Taylor and Francis/CRC, Boca
> Raton FL. 2017.
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.routledge.com%2FBiogeography-and-Evolution-in-New-Zealand%2FHeads%2Fp%2Fbook%2F9781498751872&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C37eed8a47c29489cd65b08da484a5165%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637901781291556068%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=IyUWa5az4GRzmxrjAbdFai%2FiTA8XFJwDAnIr5Qay6VI%3D&reserved=0
>
>
> *Biogeography of Australasia:  A molecular analysis*. Cambridge
> University Press, Cambridge. 2014. https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cambridge.org%2F9781107041028&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C37eed8a47c29489cd65b08da484a5165%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637901781291556068%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=yCvAnAGH55HeP2wsTebIdiX3rRlSCf8TSGDimGRyXbk%3D&reserved=0
>
>
> *Molecular panbiogeography of the tropics. *University of California
> Press, Berkeley. 2012. https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ucpress.edu%2Fbook.php%3Fisbn%3D9780520271968&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C37eed8a47c29489cd65b08da484a5165%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637901781291556068%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=V%2FN89YaEirg8fgvF9mNr4WDLGCSPT28WPonEKSeLxXM%3D&reserved=0
>
>
> *Panbiogeography: Tracking the history of life*. Oxford University Press,
> New York. 1999. (With R. Craw and J. Grehan).
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbooks.google.co.nz%2Fbooks%3Fid%3DBm0_QQ3Z6GUC&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C37eed8a47c29489cd65b08da484a5165%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637901781291556068%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=KDUP%2Buh1yj9fjdZMYDbfT6cXf1GrbtPibo1enNvm2C0%3D&reserved=0
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbooks.google.co.nz%2Fbooks%3Fid%3DBm0_QQ3Z6GUC%26dq%3Dpanbiogeography%26source%3Dgbs_navlinks_s&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C37eed8a47c29489cd65b08da484a5165%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637901781291556068%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Q8GpjtkuhPjOSQp5VKyCunNSxbo9AnvEfWKhERTRHEE%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>