Taxacom: "Early Permian" angiosperms... real or not real taxa/names?

Mon Jun 6 22:42:13 CDT 2022

Hi Tony,

Yes, assigning it to Peltaspermales might be more useful.

On Tue, Jun 7, 2022 at 10:51 AM Tony Rees <tonyrees49 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Michael,
>
> You wrote:
>
> > 'pteridosperms' are now generally accepted as a polyphyletic mess...
>
> I do not doubt that you are correct here... in this instance the affinity
> seems most likely to be with the Peltaspermales/Peltaspermaceae, one of
> which (Peltaspermum retensorium) is associated with "polliniferous
> organs... of the Permotheca type. These synangiate pollen organs consist of
> 4 to 9 pollen sacs attached to a small disc, which is up to 15 mm in
> diameter (Plate II, 2, 3, 5-7; Figs. 6E, 7A,B, 8C). The individual pollen
> sacs can slightly fused basally (Plate II, 2, 3, 7) or almost entirely free
> (Plate II, 5, 6); they are always free apically." (Naugolnykh & Kerp,1996,
> Aspects of Permian palaeobotany and palynology. XV. On the oldest known
> peltasperms with radially symmetrical ovuliferous discs from the Kungurian
> (uppermost Lower Permian) of the Fore-Urals (Russia).
> doi:10.1016/0034-6667(95)00066-6 ), which look just like little flowers
> (their fig. 7)... Also noting that Asterodiscus disparis Zalessky, 1937,
> considered by Wachtler to be included in his suite of Early Permian
> angiosperms, is listed by Naugolnykh & Kerp as a "probable synonym" of
> Peltaspermum retensorium (the name Asterodiscus is also illegitimate
> anyway, being preoccupied by a genus of diatom).
>
> I have not yet checked Zalessky's Aspidion decemnervium, also cited by
> Wachtler as a pre-Cretaceous angiosperm, but will attempt to chase it down
> further.
>
> So maybe in my database master taxonomy it would be best to allocate
> Wachtler's new taxa to Peltaspermales in particular rather than
> Pteridospermopsida in general, which as you say is a rather "broad church"
> at present, and may indeed be split further along phylogenetic lines at
> some point in the future.
>
> Tony Rees, New South Wales, Australia
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fabout.me%2FTonyRees&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ce5ec6309e6ec4624cb2a08da4837bc8b%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637901701471246076%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=qQ5r7bfSuLTt0iGRBvpVd2rhGshRSQ1eCHfwxU6ua7I%3D&reserved=0
>
>
> On Tue, 7 Jun 2022 at 06:52, Michael Heads <m.j.heads at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Tony,
>> 'pteridosperms' are now generally accepted as a polyphyletic mess - in
>> practice the term just means 'early seed plant'. Many had 'flower-like'
>> structures, but if you don't have a precise idea of what a flower is, this
>> doesn't really help.
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 7, 2022 at 7:35 AM Tony Rees via Taxacom <
>> taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks Paul... on that basis I will proceed with entering Wachtler's
>>> names
>>> into my system as "accepted" at this time (infers "validly published" in
>>> botany), until/unless they are either stated to be not validly published,
>>> or are synonymized, in later treatments.
>>>
>>> Reading a little further, I am now inclined to list them as unallocated
>>> pteridosperms: as per S.V. Naugolnykh, 2013, "New male reproductive
>>> organs
>>> of gymnosperms Permotheca colovratica sp. nov. from the Lower Permian of
>>> the Ural Mountains", Paleontological Journal, 2013, Vol. 47, No. 1, pp.
>>> 114–126 (available via researchgate), from the same locality and
>>> material;
>>> Permotheca colovratica and several others (but not the type species) is
>>> listed in Peltaspermales (Pterospermopsida) by J. Zhang et al., 2021,
>>> "The
>>> Eco-Plant model and its implication on Mesozoic dispersed sporomorphs for
>>> Bryophytes, Pteridophytes, and Gymnosperms", Review of Palaeobotany and
>>> Palynology. 293: 104503., doi: 10.1016/j.revpalbo.2021.104503
>>>
>>> Despite being claimed as an early angiosperm by Wachtler (p. 26), P.
>>> colovratica  has bisaccate in-situ pollen of the Falcisporites type (also
>>> some Alisporites) which is clearly gymnospermous; Alisporites is
>>> "considered to be characteristic of peltasperms in the broad sense (sensu
>>> Meyen, 1987) and mostly Late Paleozoic and Mesozoic conifers of the
>>> families Ullmanniaceae, Voltziaceae, and Podocarpaceae (Balme, 1995)"
>>> according to  Naugolnykh, p. 122. Naugolnykh also notes that "Pollen
>>> extracted from the sporangium of Permotheca colovratica sp. nov. is
>>> similar
>>> to disperse pollen grains (Pl. 2, figs. 2–4) abundant in the Permian
>>> deposits of the ForeUrals" -  in other words the stratigraphic
>>> distribution
>>> of the (apparently gymnosperm) "flowers" matches the stratigraphic
>>> distribution of the (gymnosperm) pollen grains with which they are
>>> associated (which Wachtler does not consider), not anything angiospermous
>>> (which latter might corroborate Wachtler's assignment/s, if found).
>>>
>>> Regards - Tony
>>>
>>> Naugolnykh's paper is well worth a look for an alternative view regarding
>>> the classification of these Early Permian, flower-like structures.
>>>
>>> Regards - Tony
>>>
>>> Tony Rees, New South Wales, Australia
>>>
>>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fabout.me%2FTonyRees&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ce5ec6309e6ec4624cb2a08da4837bc8b%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637901701471246076%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=qQ5r7bfSuLTt0iGRBvpVd2rhGshRSQ1eCHfwxU6ua7I%3D&reserved=0
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, 7 Jun 2022 at 02:45, Paul van Rijckevorsel via Taxacom <
>>> taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Yes, it seems likely that these names will squeeze by
>>> > from a nomenclatural viewpoint. Although a diagnosis
>>> > like "It has a compound of stamina with several
>>> > filaments and anthers grouped into a flower-structure"
>>> > by itself will be inadequate.
>>> >
>>> > In general, for nomenclature the exact taxonomic
>>> > position hypothesized by the author is of no importance.
>>> > If the conditions for valid publication are met, then it
>>> > does not matter if later it turns out that the author got
>>> > the taxonomy wrong, and that it concerns, say, animals
>>> > instead of plants. The name itself will stand, even if it
>>> > becomes clear that it does not stand for anything.
>>> >
>>> > Paul
>>> >
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>>>
>>> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Dunedin, New Zealand.
>>
>> My books:
>>
>> *Biogeography and evolution in New Zealand. *Taylor and Francis/CRC,
>> Boca Raton FL. 2017.
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.routledge.com%2FBiogeography-and-Evolution-in-New-Zealand%2FHeads%2Fp%2Fbook%2F9781498751872&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ce5ec6309e6ec4624cb2a08da4837bc8b%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637901701471246076%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=KzwuNYLYFdr2KCrFNKSNO0rACSYB07KySp%2FlBzy3Q%2FE%3D&reserved=0
>>
>>
>> *Biogeography of Australasia:  A molecular analysis*. Cambridge
>> University Press, Cambridge. 2014. https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cambridge.org%2F9781107041028&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ce5ec6309e6ec4624cb2a08da4837bc8b%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637901701471246076%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=pEAZyZMhT2eaamQtqdpi%2F5W4f8GVuIhywg0FyvT6Jtg%3D&reserved=0
>>
>>
>> *Molecular panbiogeography of the tropics. *University of California
>> Press, Berkeley. 2012. https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ucpress.edu%2Fbook.php%3Fisbn%3D9780520271968&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ce5ec6309e6ec4624cb2a08da4837bc8b%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637901701471246076%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=x4X88OStalsCX0jCIQYtNEn6jDsGxGi%2FcDNAbt3ZoIM%3D&reserved=0
>>
>>
>> *Panbiogeography: Tracking the history of life*. Oxford University
>> Press, New York. 1999. (With R. Craw and J. Grehan).
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbooks.google.co.nz%2Fbooks%3Fid%3DBm0_QQ3Z6GUC&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ce5ec6309e6ec4624cb2a08da4837bc8b%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637901701471246076%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=pknrYffGOVmjHl3Ek1bqDaflH95vja2iioYLkXDFIF8%3D&reserved=0
>> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbooks.google.co.nz%2Fbooks%3Fid%3DBm0_QQ3Z6GUC%26dq%3Dpanbiogeography%26source%3Dgbs_navlinks_s&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ce5ec6309e6ec4624cb2a08da4837bc8b%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637901701471246076%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=3gJOxpZ7Ji4C%2B7t1qnkoTsKpN0%2FmL2d8LdyQ90VI1KM%3D&reserved=0>
>>
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-- 
Dunedin, New Zealand.

My books:

*Biogeography and evolution in New Zealand. *Taylor and Francis/CRC, Boca
Raton FL. 2017.
https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.routledge.com%2FBiogeography-and-Evolution-in-New-Zealand%2FHeads%2Fp%2Fbook%2F9781498751872&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ce5ec6309e6ec4624cb2a08da4837bc8b%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637901701471246076%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=KzwuNYLYFdr2KCrFNKSNO0rACSYB07KySp%2FlBzy3Q%2FE%3D&reserved=0

*Biogeography of Australasia:  A molecular analysis*. Cambridge University
Press, Cambridge. 2014. https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cambridge.org%2F9781107041028&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ce5ec6309e6ec4624cb2a08da4837bc8b%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637901701471246076%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=pEAZyZMhT2eaamQtqdpi%2F5W4f8GVuIhywg0FyvT6Jtg%3D&reserved=0

*Molecular panbiogeography of the tropics. *University of California Press,
Berkeley. 2012. https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ucpress.edu%2Fbook.php%3Fisbn%3D9780520271968&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ce5ec6309e6ec4624cb2a08da4837bc8b%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637901701471246076%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=x4X88OStalsCX0jCIQYtNEn6jDsGxGi%2FcDNAbt3ZoIM%3D&reserved=0

*Panbiogeography: Tracking the history of life*. Oxford University Press,
New York. 1999. (With R. Craw and J. Grehan).
https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbooks.google.co.nz%2Fbooks%3Fid%3DBm0_QQ3Z6GUC&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ce5ec6309e6ec4624cb2a08da4837bc8b%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637901701471246076%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=pknrYffGOVmjHl3Ek1bqDaflH95vja2iioYLkXDFIF8%3D&reserved=0
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