[Taxacom] GENERAL CALL TO BATTLE

Fri Feb 12 13:28:21 CST 2021

Hi Mike,
The reasoning on that "something is not new unless it has been proven to be
different from the previous" remains sound on methodological grounds
despite the effect it may have on published names. What you see on
Strongylium has seldomly happened recently in Myriapoda, so yes, I know
that some authors disregard logic and methodology, even in groups (e.g.,
genera) which are not so speciose.
Now, of course, there will be morphologists that may be more worried about
the rightful effects of logic and methodology, than about doing the job of
differentiating from the previous. The topic that I plan to address is the
specific concern on "differentiating from the previous" for molecular
species. The Commission and those working on the ZooCode 5 may later
address those concerns for morphological species, and may decide whether to
apply the same reasoning or not, in order to preserve stability. The
reasoning may vary between morphological and molecular taxa because the
system is largely morphological and making many morphological names
unavailable may not best serve stability. On the other hand, allowing the
creation of hundreds of thousands of new molecular names with dozens of
thousands of potential morphological synonyms, does not best serve
stability, and creates a significant burden for the integrative taxonomists
that will come after us. In my opinion, we could prevent the latter by
amending the Code 4 regarding molecular names published after December 30,
2019.
I remind you again that the ones who launched a war on the current system
are "these workers", which have turned an identification tool into a
descriptive methodology without doing the job of differentiating from the
previous. Do not interpret my call as I launched a war, or a
"counterattack" on them because I mentioned their names. I will combat the
pitfalls of their method. However, I will definitely keep naming the people
responsible for starting this problem. And yes, I do maintain that they are
planning to override the Code and overwrite the current system of
morphological names. Their sustained practices, and their replies when
addressed, have not changed my mind.

Kind regards,
Carlos

Carlos A. Martínez Muñoz
Zoological Museum, Biodiversity Unit
FI-20014 University of Turku
Finland
Myriatrix <http://myriatrix.myspecies.info/>
ResearchGate profile
<https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Carlos_Martinez-Munoz>
Myriapod Morphology and Evolution
<https://www.facebook.com/groups/205802113162102/>

El vie, 12 feb 2021 a las 21:04, Michael A. Ivie (<mivie at montana.edu>)
escribió:

> Carlos,
>
> While I am indeed dismissive, I am not uninformed.
>
> By your logic, at least 50% of the 37,000 species names of Maurice Pic
> would be invalid, which they are not.  The same can be said for many, many
> other descriptions that do not compare to everything in a genus.  A
> description of Strongylium, with over 900 world-wide species, based on how
> it differs from other species from the area, is also valid.
>
> I am not crazy about this approach, but notice that no one who works of
> Braconidae seems to have a problem with it.  Perhaps those you know the
> most about the group under study find this to be usable?  To declare war on
> these workers does not seen to be fully informed.
>
> Mike
> On 2/12/2021 11:29 AM, Carlos Alberto Martínez Muñoz wrote:
>
> Hi Mike,
> Thank you for your dismissive and uninformed reply. I will reply to the
> "uninformed" part, with the hope that you actually read the papers involved
> and make your own deductions. After I present what I will write below, what
> is actually FALSE is your claim on my statements being untrue. My
> statements remain TRUE.
> For your information, I only receive the daily digest. I did not see
> Martin's reply to the list until now. I saw yours because you addressed it
> to me. So, take your words down a notch.
>
> Hi, Martin!
> Thank you for bringing up this topic: "So it seems that there is actually
> an agreement to take previously described species into account!"
>
> First, some clarifications. The correct Meierotto et al. (2019a) was
> published in Zootaxa and dates from 7.iii.2019. The correct Meierotto et
> al. (2019b) was published in the online edition of the Deutsche
> Entomologische Zeitschrift on 25.vii.2019, in a way that did not satisfy
> the provisions of the 2012 Amendment for e-publication. The original pdf
> was silently replaced for another version a few days later, which still did
> not comply with the requirements for e-publication. The nomenclatural acts
> in Meierotto et al. (2019b), take validity from the printed edition of
> December 2019, which in absence of further clarification is set to
> 31.xii.2019. Sharkey et al. (2021) incorrectly swapped the priority among
> those papers and they and their reviewers missed that. However, the
> statement by Sharkey et al. (2021) that :
> "In the Meierotto et al. (2019a) paper there was a clear statement that
> coauthor Sharkey had seen all of the relevant types" remains true, for the
> wrong reason. That statement ORIGINALLY belongs NOT to what Zamani et al.
> (2020) cited as "Meierotto et al. (2019)" (without letter) and NOT to what
> Sharkey et al. (2021) cited as "Meierotto et al. (2019a)" (incorrect
> dating, DEZ article) but to the TRUE Meierotto et al. (2019a), the one by
> Meierotto, Sharkey & van Achtenberg. In the true Meierotto et al. (2019a:
> 132) we can read "Some additional species from various genera are
> transferred to Zelomorpha or Hemichoma based on notes and photographs of
> the type specimens by MJS." Meierotto et al. (2019a) subsequently presented
> a list of new combinations, which are anchored to the clearly stated
> diagnoses of the genera Zelomorpha and Hemichoma contained in that article.
>
> The statement that appears in Meierotto et al. (2019b: 122) [July, but
> December] is:
> "Type specimens of all previously described *Zelomorpha* and *Hemichoma*
> species were examined by MJS and his notes were used to verify that *Z.
> arizonensis* is the sole previously described species in the genus."
> The first part of that statement is assumed to be true in absence of
> evidence of the contrary. The second part of that statement is also TRUE,
> but it missed the word "originally" between "the sole previously" and
> "described species in the genus". That word was important as, taking into
> account the progress made by Meierotto et al. (2019a), *Z. arizonensis*
> was NOT the only included species in the genus Zelomorpha, not since March
> 7, 2019.
> Sharkey et al. (2021) wrote: "In the Meierotto et al. (2019a) [sic!] paper
> there was a clear statement that coauthor Sharkey had seen all of the
> relevant types and that in his opinion none of the species treated were
> conspecific with these except for Zelomorpha arizonensis."
> The second part of the new statement is FALSE because:
> 1) "the sole previously described species in the genus" does not equate to
> "the only included species in the genus" and
> 2) according to Meierotto et al. (2019b: 123): "Including the fifteen new
> species described here, there are 67 described species of Zelomorpha (Yu et
> al. 2016)."
> I read that as Sharkey et al. (2021) being incorrect about their own work
> (Meierotto et al., 2019b) by a number as big as 51 species conspecific with
> Z. arizonensis.
>
> As Meierotto et al. (2019b) anchored their "new" 15 species of Zelomorpha
> only to the GENUS concept and only demonstrated that those "new" species
> were MOLECULARLY different from Z. arizonensis (the type species), their
> purportedly new species are based on a logical fallacy, do not comply with
> Article 13.1.1 and the names are therefore unavailable for the purposes of
> Zoological Nomenclature. They are most welcome to use the names for the
> purposes of Conservation Biology if they want.
>
> Kind regards,
> Carlos
>
>
> Carlos A. Martínez Muñoz
> Zoological Museum, Biodiversity Unit
> FI-20014 University of Turku
> Finland
> Myriatrix
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmyriatrix.myspecies.info%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7C3f73c74fafe5423cfaf008d8cf842075%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637487513678612541%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=XbnX6J0%2FuAE1XGcmeJnFLyCaJ%2BmxgUE43VhdG4PmqH0%3D&reserved=0>
> ResearchGate profile
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fprofile%2FCarlos_Martinez-Munoz&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7C3f73c74fafe5423cfaf008d8cf842075%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637487513678612541%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=OIsbvR7blGVsOn%2FjIcFl9uGEj4QGajGe5nhT%2FYQHSdE%3D&reserved=0>
> Myriapod Morphology and Evolution
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fgroups%2F205802113162102%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7C3f73c74fafe5423cfaf008d8cf842075%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637487513678622531%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=AphKpqZDg8Dp5GEjKA3wyYAWVczepqD%2Bc8XmeCqd3nA%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> El vie, 12 feb 2021 a las 20:11, Michael A. Ivie (<mivie at montana.edu>)
> escribió:
>
>> LOL, you think I worry about offending you?   After what offensive
>> comments you are throwing out, that is not an issue.  As for untrue
>> statements, read responses from others, there are several. Especially see
>> Martin's message
>>
>> "What inflammatory rhetoric is: Claiming that 15 species are new when
>> they have not been diagnosed from 51 previous species."
>>
>> Hi Carlos,
>>
>> Sharkey et al. (2021) reply to this accusation on p. 6-7:
>>
>> 1. “The method ignores previously described species”
>>
>> I do not believe you can document a single person involved in any of this
>> that is "people burning all science around them because they care ZERO for
>> who is coming after."  Another example of untrue statements.
>>
>> Mike
>> On 2/12/2021 11:03 AM, Carlos Alberto Martínez Muñoz wrote:
>>
>> Mike,
>> In case that you felt so touched by "Of course, there will be many who
>> are at the end of their careers, who won't care about integrative taxonomy"
>> that you had to write all those kind words, please note that mine were not
>> directed towards you. Now, if you think that there are no people burning
>> all science around them because they care ZERO for who is coming after, you
>> are wrong. Those people definitely exist, and towards them I directed my
>> comment. I hope that is not your case.
>> Now, if you may enlighten me on what you call "untrue statements", please
>> do so. Otherwise keep your rage against me to yourself and refrain from
>> offending me.
>> Cheers,
>> Carlos
>>
>>
>> Carlos A. Martínez Muñoz
>> Zoological Museum, Biodiversity Unit
>> FI-20014 University of Turku
>> Finland
>> Myriatrix
>> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmyriatrix.myspecies.info%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7C3f73c74fafe5423cfaf008d8cf842075%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637487513678622531%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=%2FhGWiAxBWmm3lGjLw3AJKe%2Bk7w3mgUDYBXVS36tDCAo%3D&reserved=0>
>> ResearchGate profile
>> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fprofile%2FCarlos_Martinez-Munoz&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7C3f73c74fafe5423cfaf008d8cf842075%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637487513678632527%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=D2Ir0alS3c4bwJ81VK0KD%2BpGtwOW0u0h8JalTUPe1ZU%3D&reserved=0>
>> Myriapod Morphology and Evolution
>> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fgroups%2F205802113162102%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7C3f73c74fafe5423cfaf008d8cf842075%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637487513678632527%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=%2Fod2iApFJQ6IQrvf5ip1sP9T4vVdAVsByC8zgQTpDsM%3D&reserved=0>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> El vie, 12 feb 2021 a las 18:54, Michael A. Ivie (<mivie at montana.edu>)
>> escribió:
>>
>>> Carlos,
>>>
>>> Your ageism and aggressive holier-than-thou approach will simply place
>>> you as a noisy sideliner, with no leadership role in the future, zero
>>> respect and less influence.  Your willingness to make untrue statements to
>>> fire people to your side are not doing you nor your cause any good.  If you
>>> want to have a role, stop this crap.  The statement below shows you to be
>>> totally out of touch with reality.  Just stop raging and do something
>>> useful.  Otherwise, maybe go to Florida and work for Trump, he likes your
>>> sort of approach.
>>>
>>> Mike
>>> On 2/12/2021 6:54 AM, Carlos Alberto Martínez Muñoz wrote:
>>>
>>> Of course, there will be many who are at the end of their careers, who
>>> won't care about integrative taxonomy
>>>
>>> --
>>> __________________________________________________
>>>
>>> Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
>>>
>>> NOTE: two addresses with different Zip Codes depending on carriers
>>>
>>> US Post Office Address:
>>> Montana Entomology Collection
>>> Marsh Labs, Room 50
>>> PO Box 173145
>>> Montana State University
>>> Bozeman, MT 59717
>>> USA
>>>
>>> UPS, FedEx, DHL Address:
>>> Montana Entomology Collection
>>> Marsh Labs, Room 50
>>> 1911 West Lincoln Street
>>> Montana State University
>>> Bozeman, MT 59718
>>> USA
>>>
>>>
>>> (406) 994-4610 (voice)
>>> (406) 994-6029 (FAX)mivie at montana.edu
>>>
>>> --
>> __________________________________________________
>>
>> Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
>>
>> NOTE: two addresses with different Zip Codes depending on carriers
>>
>> US Post Office Address:
>> Montana Entomology Collection
>> Marsh Labs, Room 50
>> PO Box 173145
>> Montana State University
>> Bozeman, MT 59717
>> USA
>>
>> UPS, FedEx, DHL Address:
>> Montana Entomology Collection
>> Marsh Labs, Room 50
>> 1911 West Lincoln Street
>> Montana State University
>> Bozeman, MT 59718
>> USA
>>
>>
>> (406) 994-4610 (voice)
>> (406) 994-6029 (FAX)mivie at montana.edu
>>
>> --
> __________________________________________________
>
> Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
>
> NOTE: two addresses with different Zip Codes depending on carriers
>
> US Post Office Address:
> Montana Entomology Collection
> Marsh Labs, Room 50
> PO Box 173145
> Montana State University
> Bozeman, MT 59717
> USA
>
> UPS, FedEx, DHL Address:
> Montana Entomology Collection
> Marsh Labs, Room 50
> 1911 West Lincoln Street
> Montana State University
> Bozeman, MT 59718
> USA
>
>
> (406) 994-4610 (voice)
> (406) 994-6029 (FAX)mivie at montana.edu
>
>