[Taxacom] GENERAL CALL TO BATTLE
Michael A. Ivie
mivie at montana.edu
Fri Feb 12 13:04:29 CST 2021
Carlos,
While I am indeed dismissive, I am not uninformed.
By your logic, at least 50% of the 37,000 species names of Maurice Pic
would be invalid, which they are not. The same can be said for many,
many other descriptions that do not compare to everything in a genus. A
description of Strongylium, with over 900 world-wide species, based on
how it differs from other species from the area, is also valid.
I am not crazy about this approach, but notice that no one who works of
Braconidae seems to have a problem with it. Perhaps those you know the
most about the group under study find this to be usable? To declare war
on these workers does not seen to be fully informed.
Mike
On 2/12/2021 11:29 AM, Carlos Alberto Martínez Muñoz wrote:
> Hi Mike,
> Thank you for your dismissive and uninformed reply. I will reply to
> the "uninformed" part, with the hope that you actually read the papers
> involved and make your own deductions. After I present what I will
> write below, what is actually FALSE is your claim on my statements
> being untrue. My statements remain TRUE.
> For your information, I only receive the daily digest. I did not see
> Martin's reply to the list until now. I saw yours because you
> addressed it to me. So, take your words down a notch.
>
> Hi, Martin!
> Thank you for bringing up this topic: "So it seems that there is
> actually an agreement to take previously described species into account!"
>
> First, some clarifications. The correct Meierotto et al. (2019a) was
> published in Zootaxa and dates from 7.iii.2019. The correct Meierotto
> et al. (2019b) was published in the online edition of the Deutsche
> Entomologische Zeitschrift on 25.vii.2019, in a way that did not
> satisfy the provisions of the 2012 Amendment for e-publication. The
> original pdf was silently replaced for another version a few days
> later, which still did not comply with the requirements for
> e-publication. The nomenclatural acts in Meierotto et al. (2019b),
> take validity from the printed edition of December 2019, which in
> absence of further clarification is set to 31.xii.2019. Sharkey et al.
> (2021) incorrectly swapped the priority among those papers and they
> and their reviewers missed that. However, the statement by Sharkey et
> al. (2021) that :
> "In the Meierotto et al. (2019a) paper there was a clear statement
> that coauthor Sharkey had seen all of the relevant types" remains
> true, for the wrong reason. That statement ORIGINALLY belongs NOT to
> what Zamani et al. (2020) cited as "Meierotto et al. (2019)" (without
> letter) and NOT to what Sharkey et al. (2021) cited as "Meierotto et
> al. (2019a)" (incorrect dating, DEZ article) but to the TRUE Meierotto
> et al. (2019a), the one by Meierotto, Sharkey & van Achtenberg. In the
> true Meierotto et al. (2019a: 132) we can read "Some additional
> species from various genera are transferred to Zelomorpha or Hemichoma
> based on notes and photographs of the type specimens by MJS."
> Meierotto et al. (2019a) subsequently presented a list of new
> combinations, which are anchored to the clearly stated diagnoses of
> the genera Zelomorpha and Hemichoma contained in that article.
>
> The statement that appears in Meierotto et al. (2019b: 122) [July, but
> December] is:
> "Type specimens of all previously described /Zelomorpha/ and
> /Hemichoma/ species were examined by MJS and his notes were used to
> verify that /Z. arizonensis/ is the sole previously described species
> in the genus."
> The first part of that statement is assumed to be true in absence of
> evidence of the contrary. The second part of that statement is also
> TRUE, but it missed the word "originally" between "the sole
> previously" and "described species in the genus". That word was
> important as, taking into account the progress made by Meierotto et
> al. (2019a), /Z. arizonensis/ was NOT the only included species in the
> genus Zelomorpha, not since March 7, 2019.
> Sharkey et al. (2021) wrote: "In the Meierotto et al. (2019a) [sic!]
> paper there was a clear statement that coauthor Sharkey had seen all
> of the relevant types and that in his opinion none of the species
> treated were conspecific with these except for Zelomorpha arizonensis."
> The second part of the new statement is FALSE because:
> 1) "the sole previously described species in the genus" does not
> equate to "the only included species in the genus" and
> 2) according to Meierotto et al. (2019b: 123): "Including the fifteen
> new species described here, there are 67 described species of
> Zelomorpha (Yu et al. 2016)."
> I read that as Sharkey et al. (2021) being incorrect about their own
> work (Meierotto et al., 2019b) by a number as big as 51 species
> conspecific with Z. arizonensis.
>
> As Meierotto et al. (2019b) anchored their "new" 15 species of
> Zelomorpha only to the GENUS concept and only demonstrated that those
> "new" species were MOLECULARLY different from Z. arizonensis (the type
> species), their purportedly new species are based on a logical
> fallacy, do not comply with Article 13.1.1 and the names are therefore
> unavailable for the purposes of Zoological Nomenclature. They are most
> welcome to use the names for the purposes of Conservation Biology if
> they want.
>
> Kind regards,
> Carlos
>
>
> Carlos A. Martínez Muñoz
> Zoological Museum, Biodiversity Unit
> FI-20014 University of Turku
> Finland
> Myriatrix
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmyriatrix.myspecies.info%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7C3f73c74fafe5423cfaf008d8cf842075%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637487513678612541%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=XbnX6J0%2FuAE1XGcmeJnFLyCaJ%2BmxgUE43VhdG4PmqH0%3D&reserved=0>
> ResearchGate profile
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fprofile%2FCarlos_Martinez-Munoz&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7C3f73c74fafe5423cfaf008d8cf842075%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637487513678612541%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=OIsbvR7blGVsOn%2FjIcFl9uGEj4QGajGe5nhT%2FYQHSdE%3D&reserved=0>
> Myriapod Morphology and Evolution
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fgroups%2F205802113162102%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7C3f73c74fafe5423cfaf008d8cf842075%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637487513678622531%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=AphKpqZDg8Dp5GEjKA3wyYAWVczepqD%2Bc8XmeCqd3nA%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> El vie, 12 feb 2021 a las 20:11, Michael A. Ivie (<mivie at montana.edu
> <mailto:mivie at montana.edu>>) escribió:
>
> LOL, you think I worry about offending you? After what offensive
> comments you are throwing out, that is not an issue. As for
> untrue statements, read responses from others, there are several.
> Especially see Martin's message
>
>> "What inflammatory rhetoric is: Claiming that 15 species are new
>> when they have not been diagnosed from 51 previous species."
>>
>> Hi Carlos,
>>
>> Sharkey et al. (2021) reply to this accusation on p. 6-7:
>>
>> 1. “The method ignores previously described species”
> I do not believe you can document a single person involved in any
> of this that is "people burning all science around them because
> they care ZERO for who is coming after." Another example of untrue
> statements.
>
> Mike
>
> On 2/12/2021 11:03 AM, Carlos Alberto Martínez Muñoz wrote:
>> Mike,
>> In case that you felt so touched by "Of course, there will be
>> many who are at the end of their careers, who won't care about
>> integrative taxonomy" that you had to write all those kind words,
>> please note that mine were not directed towards you. Now, if you
>> think that there are no people burning all science around them
>> because they care ZERO for who is coming after, you are wrong.
>> Those people definitely exist, and towards them I directed my
>> comment. I hope that is not your case.
>> Now, if you may enlighten me on what you call "untrue
>> statements", please do so. Otherwise keep your rage against me to
>> yourself and refrain from offending me.
>> Cheers,
>> Carlos
>>
>>
>> Carlos A. Martínez Muñoz
>> Zoological Museum, Biodiversity Unit
>> FI-20014 University of Turku
>> Finland
>> Myriatrix
>> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmyriatrix.myspecies.info%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7C3f73c74fafe5423cfaf008d8cf842075%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637487513678622531%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=%2FhGWiAxBWmm3lGjLw3AJKe%2Bk7w3mgUDYBXVS36tDCAo%3D&reserved=0>
>> ResearchGate profile
>> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fprofile%2FCarlos_Martinez-Munoz&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7C3f73c74fafe5423cfaf008d8cf842075%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637487513678632527%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=D2Ir0alS3c4bwJ81VK0KD%2BpGtwOW0u0h8JalTUPe1ZU%3D&reserved=0>
>> Myriapod Morphology and Evolution
>> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fgroups%2F205802113162102%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cmivie%40montana.edu%7C3f73c74fafe5423cfaf008d8cf842075%7C324aa97a03a644fc91e43846fbced113%7C0%7C0%7C637487513678632527%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=%2Fod2iApFJQ6IQrvf5ip1sP9T4vVdAVsByC8zgQTpDsM%3D&reserved=0>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> El vie, 12 feb 2021 a las 18:54, Michael A. Ivie
>> (<mivie at montana.edu <mailto:mivie at montana.edu>>) escribió:
>>
>> Carlos,
>>
>> Your ageism and aggressive holier-than-thou approach will
>> simply place you as a noisy sideliner, with no leadership
>> role in the future, zero respect and less influence. Your
>> willingness to make untrue statements to fire people to your
>> side are not doing you nor your cause any good. If you want
>> to have a role, stop this crap. The statement below shows
>> you to be totally out of touch with reality. Just stop
>> raging and do something useful. Otherwise, maybe go to
>> Florida and work for Trump, he likes your sort of approach.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> On 2/12/2021 6:54 AM, Carlos Alberto Martínez Muñoz wrote:
>>> Of course, there will be many who are at the end of their
>>> careers, who won't care about integrative taxonomy
>>
>> --
>> __________________________________________________
>>
>> Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
>>
>> NOTE: two addresses with different Zip Codes depending on carriers
>>
>> US Post Office Address:
>> Montana Entomology Collection
>> Marsh Labs, Room 50
>> PO Box 173145
>> Montana State University
>> Bozeman, MT 59717
>> USA
>>
>> UPS, FedEx, DHL Address:
>> Montana Entomology Collection
>> Marsh Labs, Room 50
>> 1911 West Lincoln Street
>> Montana State University
>> Bozeman, MT 59718
>> USA
>>
>>
>> (406) 994-4610 (voice)
>> (406) 994-6029 (FAX)
>> mivie at montana.edu <mailto:mivie at montana.edu>
>>
> --
> __________________________________________________
>
> Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
>
> NOTE: two addresses with different Zip Codes depending on carriers
>
> US Post Office Address:
> Montana Entomology Collection
> Marsh Labs, Room 50
> PO Box 173145
> Montana State University
> Bozeman, MT 59717
> USA
>
> UPS, FedEx, DHL Address:
> Montana Entomology Collection
> Marsh Labs, Room 50
> 1911 West Lincoln Street
> Montana State University
> Bozeman, MT 59718
> USA
>
>
> (406) 994-4610 (voice)
> (406) 994-6029 (FAX)
> mivie at montana.edu <mailto:mivie at montana.edu>
>
--
__________________________________________________
Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
NOTE: two addresses with different Zip Codes depending on carriers
US Post Office Address:
Montana Entomology Collection
Marsh Labs, Room 50
PO Box 173145
Montana State University
Bozeman, MT 59717
USA
UPS, FedEx, DHL Address:
Montana Entomology Collection
Marsh Labs, Room 50
1911 West Lincoln Street
Montana State University
Bozeman, MT 59718
USA
(406) 994-4610 (voice)
(406) 994-6029 (FAX)
mivie at montana.edu
More information about the Taxacom
mailing list