[Taxacom] Deja vu (too much imagined vicariance and "unreasonably ancient ages")

Kenneth Kinman kinman at hotmail.com
Thu Dec 2 08:32:09 CST 2021 

Hi All,
        Yes, Leptosomidae were far more widespread in the past (Eocene), and are now just found in Madagascar and Comoro Islands.  But this has nothing to do with the K-T extinction event that was being discussed, unless Heads is imagining Leptosomidae existed back in the Mesozoic.
        That is the kind of thing Alan de Queiroz seems to be referencing (as "unreasonably ancient ages") when he defended himself in 2016 against Michael Heads' criticisms:  "presented a distorted view of the nature of long-distance dispersal, misrepresented current applications of fossil calibrations in molecular-dating studies, ignored methodological biases in such studies that often favour vicariance hypotheses, repeatedly invoked irrelevant geological reconstructions, and, most strikingly, showed a cavalier approach to evolutionary timelines by pushing the origins of many groups back to unreasonably ancient ages."  https://www.publish.csiro.au/sb/Fulltext/sb16021
[https://www.publish.csiro.au/covers/SB_generic.jpg]<https://www.publish.csiro.au/sb/Fulltext/sb16021>
CSIRO PUBLISHING | Australian Systematic Botany<https://www.publish.csiro.au/sb/Fulltext/sb16021>
In The Monkey’s Voyage, I focused on the issue of disjunct distributions, and, in particular, on the burgeoning support from molecular-dating studies for long-distance dispersal over vicariance as the most reasonable explanation for many (but by no means all) distributions broken up by oceans. Michael Heads’ assessment of the book is founded on his long-standing belief, following Croizat ...
www.publish.csiro.au

________________________________
From: Michael Heads <m.j.heads at gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, November 29, 2021 1:15 PM
To: Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com>
Cc: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Deja vu (too much vicariance)


Hi Ken,


What is the evidence that there was more extinction on Madagascar than other areas? Fossils suggest that many endemics, e.g. Leptosomidae, were more widespread in the past, i.e. there was less extinction on Madagascar. Madagascar, like New Zealand and Mexico, is characterised by many endemics with global sisters. How does your model explain these groups?


Michael

On Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 2:39 AM Kenneth Kinman via Taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>> wrote:
Hi Jason,
         I certainly agree that "Even if people were marginally sympathetic to panbiogeography, the over the top language would harden their stance."  But it would be technically more accurate to say "too much vicariance team".  This is especially true when it comes to Madagascar.  As I said in a post in 2014, they don't seem to "realize how devastating the K-T extinction event was to the biota of Madagascar, and how that cleared the way for the vertebrate dispersers during the Cenozoic."
         I also said:  "In spite of the growing amounts of evidence for Cenozoic dispersal (for invertebrates and plants, as well as vertebrates), you [John] always retreat to your fallback position complaining about "minimal estimates", but your imagined "maximal estimates" would often have to be so old that they seem even more problematic. Perhaps there was more Cenozoic vicariance in Australasia, but if you keep on harping about dispersal to Madagascar, it makes people wonder if you are also exaggerating the role of vicariance elsewhere. "    Source: http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/pipermail/taxacom/2014-March/126916.html

                   -----------Ken Kinman

________________________________
From: Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>> on behalf of John Grehan via Taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>>
Sent: Monday, November 29, 2021 12:33 AM
To: Michael Heads <m.j.heads at gmail.com<mailto:m.j.heads at gmail.com>>
Cc: Taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>>; Jason Mate <polyphagans at gmail.com<mailto:polyphagans at gmail.com>>
Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Taxacom Digest, Vol 187, Issue 18

Now, now Jason. It's one thing to object to the way I describe a particular
approach, but another to create an "all vicariance team".  See Heads'
response on that. And it is incorrect to say that I am complaining "that
they are using timing to discern between tectonics and active dispersal".
Not at all. What I am 'complaining' about is the continued use of
the fiction that fossil calibrated estimates somehow generate actual ages
when they don't. And they carry this on as if this has never been pointed
out. That is why it is a fiction, and why their approach is garbage - in my
opinion. A fossil can empirically generate only an actual date for the
oldest known record. One may have personal views about limiting how much
older a taxon may be, but that estimate cannot come from the fossil. A
minimum is a minimum, is a minimum.

I would also note that many have dismissed panbiogeography as 'garbage' one
way or another, and I have no problem with that as everyone is entitled to
their personal view, but how they reach that opinion is up for challenge,
at least in science, in theory anyway. Some try to get around that little
impediment by trying to have panbiogeography suppressed so they can
presumably avoid having to defend their views from critique.

Cheers,

John Grehan

On Mon, Nov 29, 2021 at 1:16 AM Michael Heads via Taxacom <
taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>> wrote:

> I don't know any 'all-vicariance biogeographer', let alone a team. Can you
> name any? If evolution really was 'all vicariance', every species would
> have its own range, shared with no other.
>
> On Mon, Nov 29, 2021 at 6:48 PM Jason Mate via Taxacom <
> taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>> wrote:
>
> > "Here's another predictable example of garbage biogeography. Garbage,
> > because ...
> > ...maintaining the fiction ...
> > It's all a total fabrication, now verging on fraud ..."
> >
> > Even if people were marginally sympathetic to panbiogeography, the over
> the
> > top language would harden their stance. What you are complaining about,
> > again, is that they are using
> > timing to discern between tectonics and active dispersal. We already know
> > the "all-vicariance-team" has no room for the latter so... what's new?
> >
> > Jason
> >

_______________________________________________
Taxacom Mailing List

Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit: http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
You can reach the person managing the list at: taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at: http://taxacom.markmail.org

Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 34 years, 1987-2021.


--
Dunedin, New Zealand.

My books:


Biogeography and evolution in New Zealand. Taylor and Francis/CRC, Boca Raton FL. 2017.  https://www.routledge.com/Biogeography-and-Evolution-in-New-Zealand/Heads/p/book/9781498751872


Biogeography of Australasia:  A molecular analysis. Cambridge University Press, Cambridge. 2014. www.cambridge.org/9781107041028<http://www.cambridge.org/9781107041028>


Molecular panbiogeography of the tropics. University of California Press, Berkeley. 2012. www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520271968<http://www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520271968>


Panbiogeography: Tracking the history of life. Oxford University Press, New York. 1999. (With R. Craw and J. Grehan). http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=Bm0_QQ3Z6GUC<http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=Bm0_QQ3Z6GUC&dq=panbiogeography&source=gbs_navlinks_s>

More information about the Taxacom mailing list