[Taxacom] Deja vu (too much imagined vicariance and "unreasonably ancient ages")

Thu Dec 2 11:26:43 CST 2021

Hi Ken,

Great to have your further elaboration on these matters. I would be
interested to know what evidence you would cite to preclude a Mesozoic
presence for the Leptosomidae? The fossil age is at least lower Eocene, so
it would not be much of a push back to get to the Mesocoic. Molecular
dating has sometimes pushed back earlier origins before the oldest fossil
by this scale and even much more (and generally without much contestation).

It's nice to see you quote the claims made by Alan de Queiroz, but it's not
really helpful to the discussion without explaining why you agree with the
claims. Thus, could you substantiate the following, and also with reference
to any response from Heads?

Specifically, how do you conclude that Heads

1.present a distorted view of the nature of long-distance dispersal
2.misrepresented current applications of fossil calibrations in
molecular-dating studies
3.ignored methodological biases in such studies that often favour
vicariance hypotheses
4.repeatedly invoked irrelevant geological reconstructions
5.showed a cavalier approach to evolutionary timelines by pushing the
origins of many groups back to unreasonably ancient ages.

To me (since this is just my opinion), the characterizations of
'reasonable' or 'unreasonable' have no place in science. It may well be
that I might consider the speed of light to be 'unreasonable', but it has
no bearing on whether the speed of light is what it is. In science it is
not what one believes or considers 'reasonable' that matters, since we all
have our opinions on that, but how we get to the positions we have. And in
this respect a scientific discussion requires explanations of how you
reached agreement with  de Queiroz. What exactly do you cite as evidence in
each case? By that one may clarify points of scientific agreement or
disagreement.

Cheers,  John

On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 9:32 AM Kenneth Kinman via Taxacom <
taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> wrote:

> Hi All,
>         Yes, Leptosomidae were far more widespread in the past (Eocene),
> and are now just found in Madagascar and Comoro Islands.  But this has
> nothing to do with the K-T extinction event that was being discussed,
> unless Heads is imagining Leptosomidae existed back in the Mesozoic.
>         That is the kind of thing Alan de Queiroz seems to be referencing
> (as "unreasonably ancient ages") when he defended himself in 2016 against
> Michael Heads' criticisms:  "presented a distorted view of the nature of
> long-distance dispersal, misrepresented current applications of fossil
> calibrations in molecular-dating studies, ignored methodological biases in
> such studies that often favour vicariance hypotheses, repeatedly invoked
> irrelevant geological reconstructions, and, most strikingly, showed a
> cavalier approach to evolutionary timelines by pushing the origins of many
> groups back to unreasonably ancient ages."
> https://www.publish.csiro.au/sb/Fulltext/sb16021
> [https://www.publish.csiro.au/covers/SB_generic.jpg]<
> https://www.publish.csiro.au/sb/Fulltext/sb16021>
> CSIRO PUBLISHING | Australian Systematic Botany<
> https://www.publish.csiro.au/sb/Fulltext/sb16021>
> In The Monkey’s Voyage, I focused on the issue of disjunct distributions,
> and, in particular, on the burgeoning support from molecular-dating studies
> for long-distance dispersal over vicariance as the most reasonable
> explanation for many (but by no means all) distributions broken up by
> oceans. Michael Heads’ assessment of the book is founded on his
> long-standing belief, following Croizat ...
> www.publish.csiro.au
>
> ________________________________
> From: Michael Heads <m.j.heads at gmail.com>
> Sent: Monday, November 29, 2021 1:15 PM
> To: Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com>
> Cc: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Deja vu (too much vicariance)
>
>
> Hi Ken,
>
>
> What is the evidence that there was more extinction on Madagascar than
> other areas? Fossils suggest that many endemics, e.g. Leptosomidae, were
> more widespread in the past, i.e. there was less extinction on Madagascar.
> Madagascar, like New Zealand and Mexico, is characterised by many endemics
> with global sisters. How does your model explain these groups?
>
>
> Michael
>
> On Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 2:39 AM Kenneth Kinman via Taxacom <
> taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>> wrote:
> Hi Jason,
>          I certainly agree that "Even if people were marginally
> sympathetic to panbiogeography, the over the top language would harden
> their stance."  But it would be technically more accurate to say "too much
> vicariance team".  This is especially true when it comes to Madagascar.  As
> I said in a post in 2014, they don't seem to "realize how devastating the
> K-T extinction event was to the biota of Madagascar, and how that cleared
> the way for the vertebrate dispersers during the Cenozoic."
>          I also said:  "In spite of the growing amounts of evidence for
> Cenozoic dispersal (for invertebrates and plants, as well as vertebrates),
> you [John] always retreat to your fallback position complaining about
> "minimal estimates", but your imagined "maximal estimates" would often have
> to be so old that they seem even more problematic. Perhaps there was more
> Cenozoic vicariance in Australasia, but if you keep on harping about
> dispersal to Madagascar, it makes people wonder if you are also
> exaggerating the role of vicariance elsewhere. "    Source:
> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/pipermail/taxacom/2014-March/126916.html
>
>                    -----------Ken Kinman
>
> ________________________________
> From: Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu<mailto:
> taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>> on behalf of John Grehan via Taxacom
> <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>>
> Sent: Monday, November 29, 2021 12:33 AM
> To: Michael Heads <m.j.heads at gmail.com<mailto:m.j.heads at gmail.com>>
> Cc: Taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>>;
> Jason Mate <polyphagans at gmail.com<mailto:polyphagans at gmail.com>>
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Taxacom Digest, Vol 187, Issue 18
>
> Now, now Jason. It's one thing to object to the way I describe a particular
> approach, but another to create an "all vicariance team".  See Heads'
> response on that. And it is incorrect to say that I am complaining "that
> they are using timing to discern between tectonics and active dispersal".
> Not at all. What I am 'complaining' about is the continued use of
> the fiction that fossil calibrated estimates somehow generate actual ages
> when they don't. And they carry this on as if this has never been pointed
> out. That is why it is a fiction, and why their approach is garbage - in my
> opinion. A fossil can empirically generate only an actual date for the
> oldest known record. One may have personal views about limiting how much
> older a taxon may be, but that estimate cannot come from the fossil. A
> minimum is a minimum, is a minimum.
>
> I would also note that many have dismissed panbiogeography as 'garbage' one
> way or another, and I have no problem with that as everyone is entitled to
> their personal view, but how they reach that opinion is up for challenge,
> at least in science, in theory anyway. Some try to get around that little
> impediment by trying to have panbiogeography suppressed so they can
> presumably avoid having to defend their views from critique.
>
> Cheers,
>
> John Grehan
>
> On Mon, Nov 29, 2021 at 1:16 AM Michael Heads via Taxacom <
> taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>> wrote:
>
> > I don't know any 'all-vicariance biogeographer', let alone a team. Can
> you
> > name any? If evolution really was 'all vicariance', every species would
> > have its own range, shared with no other.
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 29, 2021 at 6:48 PM Jason Mate via Taxacom <
> > taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>> wrote:
> >
> > > "Here's another predictable example of garbage biogeography. Garbage,
> > > because ...
> > > ...maintaining the fiction ...
> > > It's all a total fabrication, now verging on fraud ..."
> > >
> > > Even if people were marginally sympathetic to panbiogeography, the over
> > the
> > > top language would harden their stance. What you are complaining about,
> > > again, is that they are using
> > > timing to discern between tectonics and active dispersal. We already
> know
> > > the "all-vicariance-team" has no room for the latter so... what's new?
> > >
> > > Jason
> > >
>
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> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 34 years, 1987-2021.
>
>
> --
> Dunedin, New Zealand.
>
> My books:
>
>
> Biogeography and evolution in New Zealand. Taylor and Francis/CRC, Boca
> Raton FL. 2017.
> https://www.routledge.com/Biogeography-and-Evolution-in-New-Zealand/Heads/p/book/9781498751872
>
>
> Biogeography of Australasia:  A molecular analysis. Cambridge University
> Press, Cambridge. 2014. www.cambridge.org/9781107041028<
> http://www.cambridge.org/9781107041028>
>
>
> Molecular panbiogeography of the tropics. University of California Press,
> Berkeley. 2012. www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520271968<
> http://www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520271968>
>
>
> Panbiogeography: Tracking the history of life. Oxford University Press,
> New York. 1999. (With R. Craw and J. Grehan).
> http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=Bm0_QQ3Z6GUC<
> http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=Bm0_QQ3Z6GUC&dq=panbiogeography&source=gbs_navlinks_s
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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> The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
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> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 34 years, 1987-2021.
>