[Taxacom] Type localities (was: Bionomina 13 published)

Stephen Thorpe stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz
Sun Dec 30 17:00:03 CST 2018


Geoff,
The concept of a type locality exists only because we happen to have a typological system of zoological (and botanical) nomenclature. Without such a typological system of nomenclature, there would be no type localities, and yet nothing important would be any different. Authors of new species would still specify the locality/localities of their material examined, and we would still go to that plane/those places to search for the species (and to any other subsequently specified localities). You are conflating two quite different things, and you are not alone! The most worrying thing is the spurious link between type localities and conservation. Nomenclatural technicalities have no relevance to conservation! Note that if an author describes a new species from several localities, only the locality of the holotype is the type locality, and yet the locality/localities of the paratypes are just as useful for looking for the species.
Cheers, 
Stephen

--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 30/12/18, Geoff Read <gread at actrix.gen.nz> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Type localities (was: Bionomina 13 published)
 To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
 Received: Sunday, 30 December, 2018, 9:32 PM
 
 Stephen,
 
 The importance of a type locality is
 that it is, in the whole vast area of
 the Earth, the one small spot where the
 species is known to occur, and
 unfortunately lots of species are only
 known from their type localities.
 So we don't go looking in the Himalayas
 for more of a species whose type
 locality is a valley in the Waitakere
 Ranges, Auckland, NZ. That would be
 absurd.
 
 That there is by convention a formal
 type locality (with a few directions
 in the Code to guide us in our use of
 it) reduces our
 re-locating-the-species problem to
 manageable dimensions, and prevents
 hijacking of a species concept to an
 animal or plant coming from a place
 where it is not reasonable that the
 species would occur. So we should have
 better stability of names via sensible
 use of type localities.
 
 Declaring a nomen dubium is not going
 to be 'end-of-story', except if the
 name is an obscure one of no
 importance. Anyone with a different opinion
 to you, or who has gathered more
 evidence, could keep using it
 subsequently. For a name still useful
 with some biology known about the
 species the next step might be to ask
 the Commission for the bad type to
 be replaced with a neotype (hopefully
 from the type locality). If there's
 no apparent type then any taxonomist
 could designate a neotype for your
 'nomen dubium' without asking the
 Commission. It's not about being
 absolutely certain they've determined
 the species correctly - it's just a
 working solution so that biology can
 carry on being done on biota that now
 has a fixed name.
 
 Geoff
 
 On Sun, December 30, 2018 1:36 pm,
 Stephen Thorpe wrote:
 > All true and pretty much what I
 said. However, such a tentative method for
 > associating names with species, as
 Thomas describes, can hardly be given
 > the lofty levels of "importance"
 that many taxonomists seem to think! If
 > nobody knows which species a name
 refers to, then one has two choices: (1)
 > tentatively associate the name
 with a species based on type locality,
 > maybe in conjunction with other
 things; or (2) declare the name to be a
 > nomen dubium. My main point is
 that I know think that (2) is preferable,
 > because it has no drawbacks that I
 can see, and it avoids working with a
 > tentative link which may be wrong
 to the extent that the species doesn't
 > even occur (and never did) at the
 type locality of the name being used for
 > it. This could lead to all sorts
 of erroneous conclusions about range
 > contractions under climate change,
 etc., etc., when in fact the species
 > never occurred there at all!
 >
 > Stephen
 >
 >
 --------------------------------------------
 > On Sun, 30/12/18, Thomas Pape
 <tpape at snm.ku.dk>
 wrote:
 >
 >  Subject: RE: [Taxacom] Type
 localities (was: Bionomina 13 published)
 >  To: "Stephen Thorpe" <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>,
 > "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
 <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>,
 "Elena
 > Kupriyanova" <Elena.Kupriyanova at austmus.gov.au>
 >  Received: Sunday, 30
 December, 2018, 11:18 AM
 >
 >  The "type locality" is the
 locality data
 >  provided for the
 name-bearing specimen. No more and no less.
 >
 >  The type locality is prone
 to error and
 >  inaccuracy as any other
 piece of information, but it *may*
 >  be of help when a type is
 not fit for identification. In
 >  particular when there is
 only one candidate species present
 >  at the type locality. An
 association between name and
 >  species based only on the
 type locality will remain
 >  hypothetical, but the
 hypothesis will be corroborated (or
 >  not) as new data emerge. If
 nomenclatural instability
 >  remains, it is possible to
 submit a Case for the Commission
 >  to set aside the
 unidentifiable name-bearing type and
 >  designate one better suited
 for nomenclatural stability.
 >
 >  /Thomas Pape
 >
 >
 >  -----Original Message-----
 >  From: Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
 >  On Behalf Of Stephen Thorpe
 >  Sent: 29. december 2018
 22:11
 >  To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu;
 >  Elena Kupriyanova <Elena.Kupriyanova at austmus.gov.au>
 >  Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Type
 localities
 >  (was: Bionomina 13
 published)
 >
 >  Lena,
 >  Yes, I do have a better
 suggestion! If
 >  a taxonomist is ever faced
 with a situation in which they
 >  can only use type locality
 information to associate a name
 >  with a species, then they
 should simply refrain from doing
 >  so and declare the name to
 be a nomen dubium. The name can
 >  then be safely ignored,
 rather than risk using it for the
 >  wrong species.
 >  Stephen
 >
 > 
 --------------------------------------------
 >  On Sun, 30/12/18, Elena
 Kupriyanova
 >  <Elena.Kupriyanova at austmus.gov.au>
 >  wrote:
 >
 >   Subject: RE: [Taxacom] Type
 localities
 >  (was: Bionomina 13
 published)
 >   To: "Stephen Thorpe" <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>,
 >  "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
 >  <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
 >   Received: Sunday, 30
 December, 2018,
 >  9:53 AM
 >
 >   Stephen,
 >   I
 >   totally agree, such a
 scenario does
 >  create a problem. Do you 
 have a better suggestion how
 >  to deal with problem?
 >   Lena
 >
 >
 >   Dr. Elena Kupriyanova
 >   Senior
 >   Research Scientist
 >   Marine Invertebrates
 >
 >   Associate Editor,
 >   Records of the Australian
 Museum
 >
 >   Australian Museum Research
 >   Institute
 >   1 William Street Sydney NSW
 2010
 >   Australia
 >   t 61 2 9320 6340   m
 >   61402735679   f 61 2
 9320 6059
 >   Visit: http://www.australianmuseum.net.au
 >   Like: http://www.facebook.com/australianmuseum
 >   Follow: http://www.twitter.com/austmus
 >   Watch: http://www.youtube.com/austmus
 >   Inspiring the exploration
 of nature
 >  and  cultures
 >
 >
 >
 >   -----Original Message-----
 >   From: Stephen Thorpe
 [mailto:stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz]
 >   Sent: Sunday, 30 December
 2018 7:16
 >  AM
 >   To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu;
 >   Elena Kupriyanova <Elena.Kupriyanova at austmus.gov.au>
 >   Subject: RE: [Taxacom] Type
 localities
 >  (was:
 >   Bionomina 13 published)
 >
 >   You
 >   seem to have skirted around
 the main
 >  problem I suggested, 
 which was 2 or more candidate
 >  species in sympatry at
 the  type locality. It is a very
 >  real possibility. If you 
 associated a name with a
 >  species, based on the
 type  locality, then you assume
 >  that the stated type
 locality is  correct and that
 >  there is one and only one
 candidate species  present at
 >  the type locality! For a
 real example, a recent 
 >  revision of the genus Sagola
 is interesting in that
 >  only  males can be
 identified morphologically, but many
 >  old types  are females.
 Nevertheless, the authors (Park
 >  & Carlton)  somehow
 managed to associate every
 >  unique female holotype 
 with a species, based on stated
 >  type localities, despite
 the  fact that distributions
 >  are very imperfectly known,
 sympatry  is common in the
 >  genus, and so many species
 are known from  so few
 >  specimens that further new
 species are very likely  (in
 >  sympatry with known
 species). Hence, effectively all
 >  the  authors did was to
 make decisions as to which
 >  names referred  to which
 species, taking type
 >  localities into account,
 but  they might as well have
 >  just considered those old
 (female
 >   based) names to be nomina
 dubia. The
 >  level of uncertainty 
 associated with their approach is
 >  such that some of the
 old  female based species might
 >  not even occur in their
 assigned  type localities, and
 >  there is probably in many
 cases no way  to confirm or
 >  refute that anyway (it could
 lead, for  example, to a
 >  scenario in which the type
 locality, after  more
 >  collecting, turns out to be
 an outlier in the 
 >  distribution of the species,
 but then someone will
 >  probably  suggest range
 contraction due to climate
 >  change!)
 >
 >   Stephen
 >
 >
 > 
 --------------------------------------------
 >   On Sun, 30/12/18, Elena
 Kupriyanova
 >  <Elena.Kupriyanova at austmus.gov.au>
 >   wrote:
 >
 >    Subject: RE:
 >   [Taxacom] Type localities
 (was:
 >  Bionomina 13 published)
 >    To: "Stephen Thorpe"
 <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>, 
 >  "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
 >   <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
 >    Received: Sunday, 30
 December,
 >  2018, 12:07  AM
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >    Dr. Elena Kupriyanova
 >    Senior Research
 Scientist
 >
 >   Marine Invertebrates
 >
 >
 >   Associate Editor,
 >    Records of
 >    the Australian Museum
 >
 >    Australian Museum
 Research
 >  Institute
 >    1 William Street Sydney
 NSW 2010
 >  Australia  t
 >   61 2 9320 6340   m
 >  61402735679   f 61 2
 >
 >   9320 6059
 >    Visit:
 > https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.australianmuseum.net.au&data=02%7C01%7CElena.Kupriyanova%40austmus.gov.au%7C35d9ab42e3194872841008d66dca6516%7C6ee75868f5d64c8cb4cda3ddce30cfd6%7C0%7C0%7C636817113393360695&sdata=V9KcnWtQwtd92OmR719yPtcPJrG23tHT%2BuOPC0okyU8%3D&reserved=0
 >    Like:
 > https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Faustralianmuseum&data=02%7C01%7CElena.Kupriyanova%40austmus.gov.au%7C35d9ab42e3194872841008d66dca6516%7C6ee75868f5d64c8cb4cda3ddce30cfd6%7C0%7C0%7C636817113393360695&sdata=6U0R1n7%2BPtdZDVCwgeMpqNqESbjvD0VsH1%2BoyyJO2oI%3D&reserved=0
 >    Follow:
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 >    Watch:
 > https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Faustmus&data=02%7C01%7CElena.Kupriyanova%40austmus.gov.au%7C35d9ab42e3194872841008d66dca6516%7C6ee75868f5d64c8cb4cda3ddce30cfd6%7C0%7C0%7C636817113393360695&sdata=nIQt3EgA7062H%2Br%2BF87gG0wcco2m4%2F9EzU9H7xUXbeI%3D&reserved=0
 >    Inspiring the
 exploration of
 >  nature and  cultures
 >
 >
 >
 >    -----Original
 Message-----
 >    From: Stephen Thorpe
 [mailto:stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz]
 >    Sent: Friday, 28
 December 2018
 >  3:07 PM
 >    To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu;
 >    Elena Kupriyanova
 <Elena.Kupriyanova at austmus.gov.au>
 >    Subject: RE: [Taxacom]
 Type
 >  localities
 >   (was:
 >    Bionomina 13
 published)
 >
 >    "to find what the name
 >   bearing species
 >    actually is one needs
 to
 >   know the type locality"
 >
 >    >I disagree! One
 simply
 >
 >   needs some way to associate
 the name
 >  with one and only one 
 species in the complex. Very
 >  often, type localities
 are  too  vague to be much use,
 >  might be completely wrong,
 or  there  might be more
 >  than one species of the
 complex in the  stated  type
 >  locality (especially if it
 is a  vague/imprecise type 
 >  locality).
 >
 >    Yes, and what is
 >    the above
 >   mentioned "some way"
 please?
 >
 >    > I expect you are
 >
 >   imagining a scenario in
 which, say,
 >  some previously 
 recognised species is now considered
 >  to be a complex of 
 ALLOPATRIC cryptic species
 >
 >
 >   Not necessarily. I think I
 clearly
 >  stated the  scenario I
 >   am not imagining, but am
 familiar with
 >  too well -  a huge
 >   species complex under a
 name of a
 >  species that is  assumed
 >   to be cosmopolitan for a no
 good
 >  reason other than  it 
 is
 >   assumed to be cosmopolitan
 >
 >
 >   >and you want to know
 which of
 >  those cryptic  species
 >   the original name belongs
 to.
 >
 >    Yes, don't we all?
 >
 >    >The type locality
 MIGHT be a
 >  guide (if
 >   it  is correct, and if
 it is precise
 >  enough), but it might
 >   not  be of any use.
 >
 >    It is
 >   the
 >    best guide we have, but
 it MIGHT
 >  in
 >   some cases be incorrect 
 or not
 >  precise enough indeed
 >
 >    >If it isn't of any
 >   use, then other
 >    means must be sought
 to
 >   associate the name with a
 species, 
 >  and there are several
 >   options.
 >
 >    Ok, continue
 >   please, I really want to
 know  about
 >  those options
 >
 >    > In
 >
 >   theory, if you could
 sequence the
 >  holotype, then DNA 
 >   matching might do the
 trick.
 >
 >    In theory? Have you
 tried this
 >  approach?
 >   Yes,  if it exists and
 if it was not
 >  fixed in formalin as
 >   most  marine inverts
 used to be
 >  fixed, this the best
 >   way.
 >
 >    >At any rate,
 >   type
 >    localities are not of
 any major
 >   importance: they may be 
 helpful, but
 >  they may not.
 >   That's all I'm saying
 (in  the
 >  context of people
 >   like Alain Dubious giving
 them far
 >  too  much attention,
 >   IMHO)
 >
 >    I
 >
 >   cannot see where this
 (surely
 >  unexpected :) conclusion
 >   comes  from. If the
 holotype does not
 >  exist, you collect
 >   fresh  material as close
 as possible
 >  to the TYPE
 >   LOCALITY,  designate a
 neotype,
 >  describe and sequence it.
 >   If the  holotype exists,
 but cannot
 >  be sequenced, you
 >   collect fresh  material
 as close as
 >  possible to the TYPE
 >   LOCALITY,  re-descibe
 the species
 >  based on the type and the
 >   fresh  material and
 sequence the
 >  fresh topotypical
 >   material. If the  type
 locality is
 >  not precise enough, you
 >   make an educated  guess
 and see
 >  above. If you discover
 >   several cryptic 
 sympatric species
 >  the type locality, you
 >   take your pick  which
 one you
 >  consider as the name
 bearing
 >   species for the 
 complex. In all
 >  cases type locality is of
 >   paramount  importance. I
 am now
 >  looking forward to hearing
 >   about other  several
 options
 >  mentioned above
 >
 >    Best,
 >
 >   Lena
 >
 >
 >
 >
 > 
 --------------------------------------------
 >    On Fri, 28/12/18,
 Elena
 >  Kupriyanova <Elena.Kupriyanova at austmus.gov.au>
 >    wrote:
 >
 >    
 >   Subject: RE:
 >    [Taxacom] Type
 localities
 >   (was: Bionomina 13
 published)
 >     To:
 >   "Stephen Thorpe" <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>, 
 >   "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
 >    <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
 >     Received: Friday, 28
 December,
 >  2018, 4:22 
 >   PM
 >
 >     Yes, of course,
 >    ultimately you
 >     need to know
 >   the
 >    distributions of the
 species in
 >  the 
 >   complex. But to figure 
 that out one
 >  has to start with
 >   the  distribution of
 the  name
 >  bearing species of the
 >   complex and  to find
 what the  name
 >  bearing species
 >   actually is one needs 
 to know the 
 >  type locality
 >
 >
 >     Dr. Elena
 >   Kupriyanova
 >     Senior
 >
 >   Research Scientist
 >     Marine
 >   Invertebrates
 >
 >     Associate
 >   Editor,
 >     Records of
 >     the
 >   Australian
 >    Museum
 >
 >     Australian Museum
 >    Research
 >   Institute
 >     1 William Street
 Sydney
 >    NSW 2010 Australia 
 t 61 2 9320
 >  6340   m
 >   61402735679   f
 >    61 2
 >    
 >   9320 6059
 >     Visit:
 > https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.australianmuseum.net.au&data=02%7C01%7CElena.Kupriyanova%40austmus.gov.au%7C35d9ab42e3194872841008d66dca6516%7C6ee75868f5d64c8cb4cda3ddce30cfd6%7C0%7C0%7C636817113393360695&sdata=V9KcnWtQwtd92OmR719yPtcPJrG23tHT%2BuOPC0okyU8%3D&reserved=0
 >     Like:
 > https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Faustralianmuseum&data=02%7C01%7CElena.Kupriyanova%40austmus.gov.au%7C35d9ab42e3194872841008d66dca6516%7C6ee75868f5d64c8cb4cda3ddce30cfd6%7C0%7C0%7C636817113393360695&sdata=6U0R1n7%2BPtdZDVCwgeMpqNqESbjvD0VsH1%2BoyyJO2oI%3D&reserved=0
 >     Follow:
 > https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.twitter.com%2Faustmus&data=02%7C01%7CElena.Kupriyanova%40austmus.gov.au%7C35d9ab42e3194872841008d66dca6516%7C6ee75868f5d64c8cb4cda3ddce30cfd6%7C0%7C0%7C636817113393360695&sdata=joLU3Q6RaluEnk6OSU2WZfcDSzTvKyHF4UE6eLL2zZk%3D&reserved=0
 >     Watch:
 > https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Faustmus&data=02%7C01%7CElena.Kupriyanova%40austmus.gov.au%7C35d9ab42e3194872841008d66dca6516%7C6ee75868f5d64c8cb4cda3ddce30cfd6%7C0%7C0%7C636817113393360695&sdata=nIQt3EgA7062H%2Br%2BF87gG0wcco2m4%2F9EzU9H7xUXbeI%3D&reserved=0
 >     Inspiring the
 exploration of nature
 >  and 
 >   cultures
 >
 >
 >
 >     -----Original
 >   Message-----
 >     From: Stephen Thorpe
 >   [mailto:stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz]
 >     Sent: Friday, 28
 December 2018 1:21
 >  PM
 >     To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu;
 >     Elena Kupriyanova
 <Elena.Kupriyanova at austmus.gov.au>
 >     Subject: Re: [Taxacom]
 Type
 >  localities
 >    (was:
 >     Bionomina 13
 >   published)
 >
 >     Not
 >     quite!
 >    The type localities
 >   per se still aren't
 important  in 
 >  the situation you
 >   describe. What matters is
 the 
 >  distributions of the
 >   segregate species in the
 complex.
 >
 >     Stephen
 >
 >
 >
 >
 > 
 --------------------------------------------
 >     On Fri, 28/12/18,
 Elena Kupriyanova
 >  <Elena.Kupriyanova at austmus.gov.au>
 >     wrote:
 >
 >
 >    Subject: Re:
 >     [Taxacom] Type
 >   localities
 >    (was: Bionomina 13
 published)
 >      To:
 >    "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
 >     <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
 >      Received: Friday,
 28
 >  December, 2018, 3:15 
 >   PM
 >
 >      > to answer
 >    your
 >     question, I
 >   wouldn't
 >      think type
 >     localities would
 >    be of much
 >   importance at all for 
 a  common,
 >  widespread  uniform
 >   species.
 >
 >      Oh,
 >    really? Except for the
 most
 >  common
 >
 >    situation in
 shallow-water
 >   marine
 >
 >    invertebrates. Once
 >   one  actually bothers to
 look more
 >  or  less carefully at
 >   this  "common,
 widespread uniform 
 >  species" and
 >   discovers a huge 
 species complex 
 >  beyond  the façade of
 >   this "common" or even 
 "cosmopolitan
 >   species", the importance of
 the 
 >  type  localities
 >   somehow becomes crystal
 clear.
 >
 >
 >      Dr.
 >
 >   Elena
 >     Kupriyanova
 >    
 >   Senior
 >    Research Scientist
 >      Marine
 >    Invertebrates
 >
 >      Associate
 >
 >   Editor,
 >      Records of
 >    
 >   the
 >    Australian Museum
 >
 >
 >     Australian Museum
 Research
 >   Institute
 >      1
 >     William
 >   Street Sydney NSW
 >    2010
 >    
 >   Australia
 >      t 61 2
 >    9320
 >   6340   m
 >
 >
 >
 >   61402735679   f 61 2
 9320 6059
 >      Visit:
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 _______________________________________________
 >  Taxacom Mailing List
 >  Send Taxacom mailing list
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 >  to: Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
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 >  http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
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 1992 may be
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 >
 >  Nurturing Nuance while
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 >  Ambiguity for 31 Some Years,
 1987-2018.
 >
 >
 _______________________________________________
 > Taxacom Mailing List
 > Send Taxacom mailing list
 submissions to: Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
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 > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
 > The Taxacom Archive back to 1992
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 > http://taxacom.markmail.org
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 >
 > Nurturing Nuance while Assaulting
 Ambiguity for 31 Some Years, 1987-2018.
 >
 
 
 --
 Geoffrey B. Read, Ph.D.
 Wellington, NEW ZEALAND
 gread at actrix.gen.nz
 
 _______________________________________________
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 Send Taxacom mailing list submissions
 to: Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
 
 http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
 The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be
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 Web, visit: http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
 You can reach the person managing the
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 Nurturing Nuance while Assaulting
 Ambiguity for 31 Some Years, 1987-2018.
 


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