[Taxacom] Type localities (was: Bionomina 13 published)
Geoff Read
gread at actrix.gen.nz
Sun Dec 30 02:32:19 CST 2018
Stephen,
The importance of a type locality is that it is, in the whole vast area of
the Earth, the one small spot where the species is known to occur, and
unfortunately lots of species are only known from their type localities.
So we don't go looking in the Himalayas for more of a species whose type
locality is a valley in the Waitakere Ranges, Auckland, NZ. That would be
absurd.
That there is by convention a formal type locality (with a few directions
in the Code to guide us in our use of it) reduces our
re-locating-the-species problem to manageable dimensions, and prevents
hijacking of a species concept to an animal or plant coming from a place
where it is not reasonable that the species would occur. So we should have
better stability of names via sensible use of type localities.
Declaring a nomen dubium is not going to be 'end-of-story', except if the
name is an obscure one of no importance. Anyone with a different opinion
to you, or who has gathered more evidence, could keep using it
subsequently. For a name still useful with some biology known about the
species the next step might be to ask the Commission for the bad type to
be replaced with a neotype (hopefully from the type locality). If there's
no apparent type then any taxonomist could designate a neotype for your
'nomen dubium' without asking the Commission. It's not about being
absolutely certain they've determined the species correctly - it's just a
working solution so that biology can carry on being done on biota that now
has a fixed name.
Geoff
On Sun, December 30, 2018 1:36 pm, Stephen Thorpe wrote:
> All true and pretty much what I said. However, such a tentative method for
> associating names with species, as Thomas describes, can hardly be given
> the lofty levels of "importance" that many taxonomists seem to think! If
> nobody knows which species a name refers to, then one has two choices: (1)
> tentatively associate the name with a species based on type locality,
> maybe in conjunction with other things; or (2) declare the name to be a
> nomen dubium. My main point is that I know think that (2) is preferable,
> because it has no drawbacks that I can see, and it avoids working with a
> tentative link which may be wrong to the extent that the species doesn't
> even occur (and never did) at the type locality of the name being used for
> it. This could lead to all sorts of erroneous conclusions about range
> contractions under climate change, etc., etc., when in fact the species
> never occurred there at all!
>
> Stephen
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Sun, 30/12/18, Thomas Pape <tpape at snm.ku.dk> wrote:
>
> Subject: RE: [Taxacom] Type localities (was: Bionomina 13 published)
> To: "Stephen Thorpe" <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>,
> "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>, "Elena
> Kupriyanova" <Elena.Kupriyanova at austmus.gov.au>
> Received: Sunday, 30 December, 2018, 11:18 AM
>
> The "type locality" is the locality data
> provided for the name-bearing specimen. No more and no less.
>
> The type locality is prone to error and
> inaccuracy as any other piece of information, but it *may*
> be of help when a type is not fit for identification. In
> particular when there is only one candidate species present
> at the type locality. An association between name and
> species based only on the type locality will remain
> hypothetical, but the hypothesis will be corroborated (or
> not) as new data emerge. If nomenclatural instability
> remains, it is possible to submit a Case for the Commission
> to set aside the unidentifiable name-bearing type and
> designate one better suited for nomenclatural stability.
>
> /Thomas Pape
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> On Behalf Of Stephen Thorpe
> Sent: 29. december 2018 22:11
> To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu;
> Elena Kupriyanova <Elena.Kupriyanova at austmus.gov.au>
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Type localities
> (was: Bionomina 13 published)
>
> Lena,
> Yes, I do have a better suggestion! If
> a taxonomist is ever faced with a situation in which they
> can only use type locality information to associate a name
> with a species, then they should simply refrain from doing
> so and declare the name to be a nomen dubium. The name can
> then be safely ignored, rather than risk using it for the
> wrong species.
> Stephen
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Sun, 30/12/18, Elena Kupriyanova
> <Elena.Kupriyanova at austmus.gov.au>
> wrote:
>
> Subject: RE: [Taxacom] Type localities
> (was: Bionomina 13 published)
> To: "Stephen Thorpe" <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>,
> "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
> <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Received: Sunday, 30 December, 2018,
> 9:53 AM
>
> Stephen,
> I
> totally agree, such a scenario does
> create a problem. Do you have a better suggestion how
> to deal with problem?
> Lena
>
>
> Dr. Elena Kupriyanova
> Senior
> Research Scientist
> Marine Invertebrates
>
> Associate Editor,
> Records of the Australian Museum
>
> Australian Museum Research
> Institute
> 1 William Street Sydney NSW 2010
> Australia
> t 61 2 9320 6340Â Â m
> 61402735679Â Â f 61 2 9320 6059
> Visit: http://www.australianmuseum.net.au
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>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stephen Thorpe [mailto:stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz]
> Sent: Sunday, 30 December 2018 7:16
> AM
> To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu;
> Elena Kupriyanova <Elena.Kupriyanova at austmus.gov.au>
> Subject: RE: [Taxacom] Type localities
> (was:
> Bionomina 13 published)
>
> You
> seem to have skirted around the main
> problem I suggested, which was 2 or more candidate
> species in sympatry at the type locality. It is a very
> real possibility. If you associated a name with a
> species, based on the type locality, then you assume
> that the stated type locality is correct and that
> there is one and only one candidate species present at
> the type locality! For a real example, a recentÂ
> revision of the genus Sagola is interesting in that
> only males can be identified morphologically, but many
> old types are females. Nevertheless, the authors (Park
> & Carlton)Â somehow managed to associate every
> unique female holotype with a species, based on stated
> type localities, despite the fact that distributions
> are very imperfectly known, sympatry is common in the
> genus, and so many species are known from so few
> specimens that further new species are very likely (in
> sympatry with known species). Hence, effectively all
> the authors did was to make decisions as to which
> names referred to which species, taking type
> localities into account, but they might as well have
> just considered those old (female
> based) names to be nomina dubia. The
> level of uncertainty associated with their approach is
> such that some of the old female based species might
> not even occur in their assigned type localities, and
> there is probably in many cases no way to confirm or
> refute that anyway (it could lead, for example, to a
> scenario in which the type locality, after more
> collecting, turns out to be an outlier in theÂ
> distribution of the species, but then someone will
> probably suggest range contraction due to climate
> change!)
>
> Stephen
>
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Sun, 30/12/18, Elena Kupriyanova
> <Elena.Kupriyanova at austmus.gov.au>
> wrote:
>
> Â Subject: RE:
> [Taxacom] Type localities (was:
> Bionomina 13 published)
> Â To: "Stephen Thorpe" <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>,Â
> "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
> <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Â Received: Sunday, 30 December,
> 2018, 12:07Â AM
>
>
>
>
> Â Dr. Elena Kupriyanova
> Â Senior Research Scientist
>
> Marine Invertebrates
>
>
> Associate Editor,
> Â Records of
> Â the Australian Museum
>
> Â Australian Museum Research
> Institute
> Â 1 William Street Sydney NSW 2010
> Australia t
> 61 2 9320 6340Â Â m
> 61402735679Â Â f 61 2
>
> 9320 6059
> Â Visit:
> https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.australianmuseum.net.au&data=02%7C01%7CElena.Kupriyanova%40austmus.gov.au%7C35d9ab42e3194872841008d66dca6516%7C6ee75868f5d64c8cb4cda3ddce30cfd6%7C0%7C0%7C636817113393360695&sdata=V9KcnWtQwtd92OmR719yPtcPJrG23tHT%2BuOPC0okyU8%3D&reserved=0
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> Â Inspiring the exploration of
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>
>
>
> Â -----Original Message-----
> Â From: Stephen Thorpe [mailto:stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz]
> Â Sent: Friday, 28 December 2018
> 3:07 PM
> Â To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu;
> Â Elena Kupriyanova <Elena.Kupriyanova at austmus.gov.au>
> Â Subject: RE: [Taxacom] Type
> localities
> (was:
> Â Bionomina 13 published)
>
> Â "to find what the name
> bearing species
> Â actually is one needs to
> know the type locality"
>
> Â >I disagree! One simply
>
> needs some way to associate the name
> with one and only one species in the complex. Very
> often, type localities are too vague to be much use,
> might be completely wrong, or there might be more
> than one species of the complex in the stated type
> locality (especially if it is a vague/imprecise typeÂ
> locality).
>
> Â Yes, and what is
> Â the above
> mentioned "some way" please?
>
> Â > I expect you are
>
> imagining a scenario in which, say,
> some previously recognised species is now considered
> to be a complex of ALLOPATRIC cryptic species
>
>
> Not necessarily. I think I clearly
> stated the scenario I
> am not imagining, but am familiar with
> too well -Â a huge
> species complex under a name of a
> species that is assumed
> to be cosmopolitan for a no good
> reason other than it is
> assumed to be cosmopolitan
>
>
> >and you want to know which of
> those cryptic species
> the original name belongs to.
>
> Â Yes, don't we all?
>
> Â >The type locality MIGHT be a
> guide (if
> it is correct, and if it is precise
> enough), but it might
> not be of any use.
>
> Â It is
> the
> Â best guide we have, but it MIGHT
> in
> some cases be incorrect or not
> precise enough indeed
>
> Â >If it isn't of any
> use, then other
> Â means must be sought to
> associate the name with a species,Â
> and there are several
> options.
>
> Â Ok, continue
> please, I really want to know about
> those options
>
> Â > In
>
> theory, if you could sequence the
> holotype, then DNAÂ
> matching might do the trick.
>
> Â In theory? Have you tried this
> approach?
> Yes, if it exists and if it was not
> fixed in formalin as
> most marine inverts used to be
> fixed, this the best
> way.
>
> Â >At any rate,
> type
> Â localities are not of any major
> importance: they may be helpful, but
> they may not.
> That's all I'm saying (in the
> context of people
> like Alain Dubious giving them far
> too much attention,
> IMHO)
>
> Â I
>
> cannot see where this (surely
> unexpected :) conclusion
> comes from. If the holotype does not
> exist, you collect
> fresh material as close as possible
> to the TYPE
> LOCALITY, designate a neotype,
> describe and sequence it.
> If the holotype exists, but cannot
> be sequenced, you
> collect fresh material as close as
> possible to the TYPE
> LOCALITY, re-descibe the species
> based on the type and the
> fresh material and sequence the
> fresh topotypical
> material. If the type locality is
> not precise enough, you
> make an educated guess and see
> above. If you discover
> several cryptic sympatric species
> the type locality, you
> take your pick which one you
> consider as the name bearing
> species for the complex. In all
> cases type locality is of
> paramount importance. I am now
> looking forward to hearing
> about other several options
> mentioned above
>
> Â Best,
>
> Lena
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------
> Â On Fri, 28/12/18, Elena
> Kupriyanova <Elena.Kupriyanova at austmus.gov.au>
> Â wrote:
>
> Â
> Subject: RE:
> Â [Taxacom] Type localities
> (was: Bionomina 13 published)
> Â To:
> "Stephen Thorpe" <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>,Â
> "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
> Â <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Â Received: Friday, 28 December,
> 2018, 4:22Â
> PM
>
> Â Yes, of course,
> Â ultimately you
> Â need to know
> the
> Â distributions of the species in
> theÂ
> complex. But to figure that out one
> has to start with
> the distribution of the name
> bearing species of the
> complex and to find what the name
> bearing species
> actually is one needs to know theÂ
> type locality
>
>
> Â Dr. Elena
> Kupriyanova
> Â Senior
>
> Research Scientist
> Â Marine
> Invertebrates
>
> Â Associate
> Editor,
> Â Records of
> Â the
> Australian
> Â Museum
>
> Â Australian Museum
> Â Research
> Institute
> Â 1 William Street Sydney
>  NSW 2010 Australia t 61 2 9320
> 6340Â Â m
> 61402735679Â Â f
> Â 61 2
> Â
> 9320 6059
> Â Visit:
> https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.australianmuseum.net.au&data=02%7C01%7CElena.Kupriyanova%40austmus.gov.au%7C35d9ab42e3194872841008d66dca6516%7C6ee75868f5d64c8cb4cda3ddce30cfd6%7C0%7C0%7C636817113393360695&sdata=V9KcnWtQwtd92OmR719yPtcPJrG23tHT%2BuOPC0okyU8%3D&reserved=0
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>
> Â -----Original
> Message-----
> Â From: Stephen Thorpe
> [mailto:stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz]
> Â Sent: Friday, 28 December 2018 1:21
> PM
> Â To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu;
> Â Elena Kupriyanova <Elena.Kupriyanova at austmus.gov.au>
> Â Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Type
> localities
> Â (was:
> Â Bionomina 13
> published)
>
> Â Not
> Â quite!
> Â The type localities
> per se still aren't important inÂ
> the situation you
> describe. What matters is theÂ
> distributions of the
> segregate species in the complex.
>
> Â Stephen
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------
> Â On Fri, 28/12/18, Elena Kupriyanova
> <Elena.Kupriyanova at austmus.gov.au>
> Â wrote:
>
>
> Â Subject: Re:
> Â [Taxacom] Type
> localities
> Â (was: Bionomina 13 published)
> Â Â To:
> Â "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
> Â <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Â Â Received: Friday, 28
> December, 2018, 3:15Â
> PM
>
> Â Â > to answer
> Â your
> Â question, I
> wouldn't
> Â Â think type
> Â localities would
> Â be of much
> importance at all for a common,
> widespread uniform
> species.
>
> Â Â Oh,
> Â really? Except for the most
> common
>
> Â situation in shallow-water
> marine
>
> Â invertebrates. Once
> one actually bothers to look more
> or less carefully at
> this "common, widespread uniformÂ
> species" and
> discovers a huge species complexÂ
> beyond the façade of
> this "common" or even "cosmopolitan
> species", the importance of theÂ
> type localities
> somehow becomes crystal clear.
>
>
> Â Â Dr.
>
> Elena
> Â Kupriyanova
> Â
> Senior
> Â Research Scientist
> Â Â Marine
> Â Invertebrates
>
> Â Â Associate
>
> Editor,
> Â Â Records of
> Â
> the
> Â Australian Museum
>
>
> Â Australian Museum Research
> Institute
> Â Â 1
> Â William
> Street Sydney NSW
> Â 2010
> Â
> Australia
> Â Â t 61 2
> Â 9320
> 6340Â Â m
>
>
>
> 61402735679Â Â f 61 2 9320 6059
> Â Â Visit:
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> Nurturing Nuance while Assaulting
> Ambiguity for 31 Some Years, 1987-2018.
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> Nurturing Nuance while Assaulting Ambiguity for 31 Some Years, 1987-2018.
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--
Geoffrey B. Read, Ph.D.
Wellington, NEW ZEALAND
gread at actrix.gen.nz
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