[Taxacom] Type localities (was: Bionomina 13 published)

Sat Dec 29 18:36:18 CST 2018

All true and pretty much what I said. However, such a tentative method for associating names with species, as Thomas describes, can hardly be given the lofty levels of "importance" that many taxonomists seem to think! If nobody knows which species a name refers to, then one has two choices: (1) tentatively associate the name with a species based on type locality, maybe in conjunction with other things; or (2) declare the name to be a nomen dubium. My main point is that I know think that (2) is preferable, because it has no drawbacks that I can see, and it avoids working with a tentative link which may be wrong to the extent that the species doesn't even occur (and never did) at the type locality of the name being used for it. This could lead to all sorts of erroneous conclusions about range contractions under climate change, etc., etc., when in fact the species never occurred there at all!

Stephen

--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 30/12/18, Thomas Pape <tpape at snm.ku.dk> wrote:

 Subject: RE: [Taxacom] Type localities (was: Bionomina 13 published)
 To: "Stephen Thorpe" <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>, "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>, "Elena Kupriyanova" <Elena.Kupriyanova at austmus.gov.au>
 Received: Sunday, 30 December, 2018, 11:18 AM

 The "type locality" is the locality data
 provided for the name-bearing specimen. No more and no less.

 The type locality is prone to error and
 inaccuracy as any other piece of information, but it *may*
 be of help when a type is not fit for identification. In
 particular when there is only one candidate species present
 at the type locality. An association between name and
 species based only on the type locality will remain
 hypothetical, but the hypothesis will be corroborated (or
 not) as new data emerge. If nomenclatural instability
 remains, it is possible to submit a Case for the Commission
 to set aside the unidentifiable name-bearing type and
 designate one better suited for nomenclatural stability.

 /Thomas Pape

 -----Original Message-----
 From: Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
 On Behalf Of Stephen Thorpe
 Sent: 29. december 2018 22:11
 To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu;
 Elena Kupriyanova <Elena.Kupriyanova at austmus.gov.au>
 Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Type localities
 (was: Bionomina 13 published)

 Lena,
 Yes, I do have a better suggestion! If
 a taxonomist is ever faced with a situation in which they
 can only use type locality information to associate a name
 with a species, then they should simply refrain from doing
 so and declare the name to be a nomen dubium. The name can
 then be safely ignored, rather than risk using it for the
 wrong species.
 Stephen

 --------------------------------------------
 On Sun, 30/12/18, Elena Kupriyanova
 <Elena.Kupriyanova at austmus.gov.au>
 wrote:

  Subject: RE: [Taxacom] Type localities
 (was: Bionomina 13 published)
  To: "Stephen Thorpe" <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>,
 "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
 <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
  Received: Sunday, 30 December, 2018,
 9:53 AM

  Stephen,
  I
  totally agree, such a scenario does
 create a problem. Do you  have a better suggestion how
 to deal with problem?
  Lena

  Dr. Elena Kupriyanova
  Senior
  Research Scientist
  Marine Invertebrates

  Associate Editor,
  Records of the Australian Museum

  Australian Museum Research
  Institute
  1 William Street Sydney NSW 2010
  Australia
  t 61 2 9320 6340   m
  61402735679   f 61 2 9320 6059
  Visit: http://www.australianmuseum.net.au
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 and  cultures

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Stephen Thorpe [mailto:stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz]
  Sent: Sunday, 30 December 2018 7:16
 AM
  To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu;
  Elena Kupriyanova <Elena.Kupriyanova at austmus.gov.au>
  Subject: RE: [Taxacom] Type localities
 (was:
  Bionomina 13 published)

  You
  seem to have skirted around the main
 problem I suggested,  which was 2 or more candidate
 species in sympatry at the  type locality. It is a very
 real possibility. If you  associated a name with a
 species, based on the type  locality, then you assume
 that the stated type locality is  correct and that
 there is one and only one candidate species  present at
 the type locality! For a real example, a recent 
 revision of the genus Sagola is interesting in that
 only  males can be identified morphologically, but many
 old types  are females. Nevertheless, the authors (Park
 & Carlton)  somehow managed to associate every
 unique female holotype  with a species, based on stated
 type localities, despite the  fact that distributions
 are very imperfectly known, sympatry  is common in the
 genus, and so many species are known from  so few
 specimens that further new species are very likely  (in
 sympatry with known species). Hence, effectively all
 the  authors did was to make decisions as to which
 names referred  to which species, taking type
 localities into account, but  they might as well have
 just considered those old (female
  based) names to be nomina dubia. The
 level of uncertainty  associated with their approach is
 such that some of the old  female based species might
 not even occur in their assigned  type localities, and
 there is probably in many cases no way  to confirm or
 refute that anyway (it could lead, for  example, to a
 scenario in which the type locality, after  more
 collecting, turns out to be an outlier in the 
 distribution of the species, but then someone will
 probably  suggest range contraction due to climate
 change!)

  Stephen

 --------------------------------------------
  On Sun, 30/12/18, Elena Kupriyanova
 <Elena.Kupriyanova at austmus.gov.au>
  wrote:

   Subject: RE:
  [Taxacom] Type localities (was:
 Bionomina 13 published)
   To: "Stephen Thorpe" <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>, 
 "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
  <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
   Received: Sunday, 30 December,
 2018, 12:07  AM

   Dr. Elena Kupriyanova
   Senior Research Scientist

  Marine Invertebrates

  Associate Editor,
   Records of
   the Australian Museum

   Australian Museum Research
 Institute
   1 William Street Sydney NSW 2010
 Australia  t
  61 2 9320 6340   m
 61402735679   f 61 2

  9320 6059
   Visit: https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.australianmuseum.net.au&data=02%7C01%7CElena.Kupriyanova%40austmus.gov.au%7C35d9ab42e3194872841008d66dca6516%7C6ee75868f5d64c8cb4cda3ddce30cfd6%7C0%7C0%7C636817113393360695&sdata=V9KcnWtQwtd92OmR719yPtcPJrG23tHT%2BuOPC0okyU8%3D&reserved=0
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   Inspiring the exploration of
 nature and  cultures

   -----Original Message-----
   From: Stephen Thorpe [mailto:stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz]
   Sent: Friday, 28 December 2018
 3:07 PM
   To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu;
   Elena Kupriyanova <Elena.Kupriyanova at austmus.gov.au>
   Subject: RE: [Taxacom] Type
 localities
  (was:
   Bionomina 13 published)

   "to find what the name
  bearing species
   actually is one needs to
  know the type locality"

   >I disagree! One simply

  needs some way to associate the name
 with one and only one  species in the complex. Very
 often, type localities are  too  vague to be much use,
 might be completely wrong, or  there  might be more
 than one species of the complex in the  stated  type
 locality (especially if it is a  vague/imprecise type 
 locality).

   Yes, and what is
   the above
  mentioned "some way" please?

   > I expect you are

  imagining a scenario in which, say,
 some previously  recognised species is now considered
 to be a complex of  ALLOPATRIC cryptic species

  Not necessarily. I think I clearly
 stated the  scenario I
  am not imagining, but am familiar with
 too well -  a huge
  species complex under a name of a
 species that is  assumed
  to be cosmopolitan for a no good
 reason other than  it  is
  assumed to be cosmopolitan

  >and you want to know which of
 those cryptic  species
  the original name belongs to.

   Yes, don't we all?

   >The type locality MIGHT be a
 guide (if
  it  is correct, and if it is precise
 enough), but it might
  not  be of any use.

   It is
  the
   best guide we have, but it MIGHT
 in
  some cases be incorrect  or not
 precise enough indeed

   >If it isn't of any
  use, then other
   means must be sought to
  associate the name with a species, 
 and there are several
  options.

   Ok, continue
  please, I really want to know  about
 those options

   > In

  theory, if you could sequence the
 holotype, then DNA 
  matching might do the trick.

   In theory? Have you tried this
 approach?
  Yes,  if it exists and if it was not
 fixed in formalin as
  most  marine inverts used to be
 fixed, this the best
  way.

   >At any rate,
  type
   localities are not of any major
  importance: they may be  helpful, but
 they may not.
  That's all I'm saying (in  the
 context of people
  like Alain Dubious giving them far
 too  much attention,
  IMHO)

   I

  cannot see where this (surely
 unexpected :) conclusion
  comes  from. If the holotype does not
 exist, you collect
  fresh  material as close as possible
 to the TYPE
  LOCALITY,  designate a neotype,
 describe and sequence it.
  If the  holotype exists, but cannot
 be sequenced, you
  collect fresh  material as close as
 possible to the TYPE
  LOCALITY,  re-descibe the species
 based on the type and the
  fresh  material and sequence the
 fresh topotypical
  material. If the  type locality is
 not precise enough, you
  make an educated  guess and see
 above. If you discover
  several cryptic  sympatric species
 the type locality, you
  take your pick  which one you
 consider as the name bearing
  species for the  complex. In all
 cases type locality is of
  paramount  importance. I am now
 looking forward to hearing
  about other  several options
 mentioned above

   Best,

  Lena

 --------------------------------------------
   On Fri, 28/12/18, Elena
 Kupriyanova <Elena.Kupriyanova at austmus.gov.au>
   wrote:

  Subject: RE:
   [Taxacom] Type localities
  (was: Bionomina 13 published)
    To:
  "Stephen Thorpe" <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>, 
  "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
   <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
    Received: Friday, 28 December,
 2018, 4:22 
  PM

    Yes, of course,
   ultimately you
    need to know
  the
   distributions of the species in
 the 
  complex. But to figure  that out one
 has to start with
  the  distribution of the  name
 bearing species of the
  complex and  to find what the  name
 bearing species
  actually is one needs  to know the 
 type locality

    Dr. Elena
  Kupriyanova
    Senior

  Research Scientist
    Marine
  Invertebrates

    Associate
  Editor,
    Records of
    the
  Australian
   Museum

    Australian Museum
   Research
  Institute
    1 William Street Sydney
   NSW 2010 Australia  t 61 2 9320
 6340   m
  61402735679   f
   61 2

  9320 6059
    Visit: https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.australianmuseum.net.au&data=02%7C01%7CElena.Kupriyanova%40austmus.gov.au%7C35d9ab42e3194872841008d66dca6516%7C6ee75868f5d64c8cb4cda3ddce30cfd6%7C0%7C0%7C636817113393360695&sdata=V9KcnWtQwtd92OmR719yPtcPJrG23tHT%2BuOPC0okyU8%3D&reserved=0
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    Inspiring the exploration of nature
 and 
  cultures

    -----Original
  Message-----
    From: Stephen Thorpe
  [mailto:stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz]
    Sent: Friday, 28 December 2018 1:21
 PM
    To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu;
    Elena Kupriyanova <Elena.Kupriyanova at austmus.gov.au>
    Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Type
 localities
   (was:
    Bionomina 13
  published)

    Not
    quite!
   The type localities
  per se still aren't important  in 
 the situation you
  describe. What matters is the 
 distributions of the
  segregate species in the complex.

    Stephen

 --------------------------------------------
    On Fri, 28/12/18, Elena Kupriyanova
 <Elena.Kupriyanova at austmus.gov.au>
    wrote:

   Subject: Re:
    [Taxacom] Type
  localities
   (was: Bionomina 13 published)
     To:
   "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
    <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
     Received: Friday, 28
 December, 2018, 3:15 
  PM

     > to answer
   your
    question, I
  wouldn't
     think type
    localities would
   be of much
  importance at all for  a  common,
 widespread  uniform
  species.

     Oh,
   really? Except for the most
 common

   situation in shallow-water
  marine

   invertebrates. Once
  one  actually bothers to look more
 or  less carefully at
  this  "common, widespread uniform 
 species" and
  discovers a huge  species complex 
 beyond  the façade of
  this "common" or even  "cosmopolitan
  species", the importance of the 
 type  localities
  somehow becomes crystal clear.

     Dr.

  Elena
    Kupriyanova

  Senior
   Research Scientist
     Marine
   Invertebrates

     Associate

  Editor,
     Records of

  the
   Australian Museum

    Australian Museum Research
  Institute
     1
    William
  Street Sydney NSW
   2010

  Australia
     t 61 2
   9320
  6340   m

  61402735679   f 61 2 9320 6059
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 Nurturing Nuance while Assaulting
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