[Taxacom] Important note Re: two names online published - one new species
Stephen Thorpe
stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz
Sun Jan 24 18:33:45 CST 2016
Mike, Mike, Mike,
Let me be the first to fess up to talking about something I don't really understand, i.e. milking and selective breeding of cattle. I'm more than happy to defer to you on that one, though I only actually said that your statement (which was clearly intended to sound ridiculous) was perhaps no so far from the truth, that's all. But enough of that digression!
OK, so you are arguing that Zootaxa was made fully compliant with the Amendment after the fact, and every other publisher should do the same, or risk noncompliance issues infecting their output. Well, that is easy to postulate, but difficult to prove (or even support with any real evidence). Maybe this is precisely why COIs should always be avoided, precisely because it raises doubts which can never really be put to rest. If you were on trial Mike (innocent of course!), would you accept one of the jurors being related to the victim?
Stephen
--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 25/1/16, Michael A. Ivie <mivie at montana.edu> wrote:
Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Important note Re: two names online published - one new species
To: "Stephen Thorpe" <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>, taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
Received: Monday, 25 January, 2016, 1:23 PM
Nah, it was not hypocrisy, it was
intentional, just payback for your
actions. And, no, you didn't already answer it, you
had only addressed
a unidirectional model of conspiracy and COI. That the
direction of
influence was the other way had never been address, more
smoke and
mirrors by you.
I take it you have no real experience with milking machines,
either.
Your statement would get you laughed out of a milking
parlor.
Mike
On 1/24/2016 5:18 PM, Stephen Thorpe wrote:
> BTW, Mike, you accuse me of a "personal attack" against
you (for merely pointing out that you asked something that I
had already answered!), and then you accuse me of having a
(your words) "conspiracy fetish"! There is a word beginning
with H which describes you (and possibly words starting with
other letters too!) There is no conspiracy, just a common or
garden case of COI, plain for all the world to see.
>
> Stephen
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Mon, 25/1/16, Michael A. Ivie <mivie at montana.edu>
wrote:
>
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Important note
Re: two names online published - one new species
> To: "Stephen Thorpe" <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>,
taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> Received: Monday, 25 January, 2016,
1:06 PM
>
> Stephen,
>
> Again, you try to distract us with a
personal attack,
> claiming I am not
> doing something "properly." Do
try to stick to the
> topic.
> Zootaxa dates to before the amendment
but was not compliant
> with the
> amendment before the Amendment was
proposed, so your straw
> man is just
> smoke and mirrors to cover your
conspiracy fetish.
> Because Zootaxa was
> compliant with the Amendment after the
amendment was
> adopted, but by the
> time it was in force, sensibly taking
advantage of the long
> announced
> period between being advertized and
going into force, is
> simply the
> actions of a good editor trying to
work within the needs of
> Zoological
> Nomenclature and our community.
>
> Your argument is like saying cow
udders were designed to
> optimized the
> profits of those who make milking
machines.
>
> Mike
>
>
> On 1/24/2016 4:37 PM, Stephen Thorpe
wrote:
> > If you had read my posts
properly, Mike, you would
> already know the answer to that! Which
came first? Zootaxa
> or Amendment?
> >
> > Stephen
> >
> >
> >
--------------------------------------------
> > On Mon, 25/1/16, Michael A. Ivie
<mivie at montana.edu>
> wrote:
> >
> > Subject: Re:
[Taxacom] Important note
> Re: two names online published - one
new species
> > To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > Received:
Monday, 25 January, 2016,
> 12:23 PM
> >
> > Stephen,
> >
> > Why is it not
more likely, in the face
> of first person
> > testimony from
> > those present,
that Zootaxa was
> optimized TO THE AMENDMENT,
> > and not the
> > other way
around, which you cling to
> as a drowning man to a
> > piece of
> > styrofoam?
Seems to me that a
> publisher that looks at
> > the amendment,
> > and sets their
journal to conform to
> it should be put up on
> > a pedestal
> > as an example to
the world, not
> accused of nefarious insider
> > trading.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > On 1/24/2016
2:26 PM, Stephen Thorpe
> wrote:
> > > Other
publishers were no doubt
> consulted to some
> > extent, yes.
Neverthless, we have
> ended up in a situation
> > whereby the
electronic amendment is
> optimised to the Zootaxa
> > publishing
model, and many other
> publishers fall into a
> > messy and
indeterminate basket. Note
> that the Zootaxa
> > publishing model
wasn't created so as
> to be fully Code
> > compliant with
the electronic
> amendment. The Zootaxa model
> > predates the
amendment by several
> years. At the very least,
> > Zhang had inside
knowledge of what was
> going to result from
> > the amendment
well ahead of time, and
> thereby had an
> > advantage over
other publishers.
> > >
> > > These are
facts Frank. I cannot
> be wrong. Not unless
> > you can offer a
convincing alternative
> explanation as to why
> > the electronic
amendment fits Zootaxa
> hand in glove, while
> > other publishers
are left in a gray
> zone. Well?
> > >
> > > Stephen
> > >
> > >
> --------------------------------------------
> > > On Mon,
25/1/16, Frank T. Krell
> <Frank.Krell at dmns.org>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Subject:
RE:
> [Taxacom] Important note
> > Re: two names
online published -
> one new
> > species
> > > To:
"Stephen
> Thorpe" <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>,
> > "deepreef at bishopmuseum.org"
> > <deepreef at bishopmuseum.org>,
> > "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
> > <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>,
> > "'Doug Yanega'"
<dyanega at ucr.edu>
> > > Cc:
"'engel'"
> <msengel at ku.edu>
> > > Received:
> Monday, 25 January, 2016,
> > 10:16 AM
> > >
> > > To
you. But you
> are
> > > wrong.
You won't
> be convinced
> > otherwise, so it
is
> > > useless
to
> repeat that other
> > publishers were
consulted
> > > etc.
> > > You
believe what
> you want anyway.
> > > Frank
> > >
> > > -----Original
> Message-----
> > > From:
Stephen
> Thorpe [mailto:stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz]
> > >
> > > Sent:
Sunday,
> January 24, 2016 2:11
> > PM
> > > To:
Stephen
> Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>;
> > > deepreef at bishopmuseum.org;
> > > taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu;
> > > 'Doug
Yanega'
> <dyanega at ucr.edu>;
> > > Frank
T. Krell
> <Frank.Krell at dmns.org>
> > > Cc:
'engel'
> <msengel at ku.edu>
> > > Subject:
RE:
> [Taxacom] Important note
> > Re: two
> > > names
online
> published - one new
> > species
> > >
> > > Frank,
> > >
> > > Zootaxa
> > > is
very relevant
> to this whole thread
> > and wider
> > > discussion.
> > >
> > > Fact
(1): there
> > > are
significant
> problems with the
> > electronic
amendment (no,
> > > the
sky isn't
> falling down, people
> > aren't running
> > > for
the hills in
> droves, etc., but in
> > the context of
> > > zoological
> nomenclature there are
> > significant
problems),
> > > none
of which
> affect the Zootaxa
> > publishing
model.
> > >
> > > Fact
(2): the
> owner of Zootaxa
> > > is
a prominent
> member of the ICZN who
> > had a
significant part
> > > to
play in the
> development of the
> > electronic
amendment.
> > >
> > > Now,
you can
> claim, if you
> > > really
want to,
> that facts (1) and (2)
> > are
independent,
> > > coincidence,
or
> whatever, but to me it
> > looks like a
classic
> > > case
of a COI.
> The best interests of
> > zoological
nomenclature
> > > as
a whole are
> not necessarily the
> > best interests
of Zootaxa
> > > in
particular.
> You make yourself look
> > foolish if you
refuse
> > > to
acknowledge
> the problem here. You
> > might claim that
the
> > > COI
is
> outweighed by other more
> > important
factors (like,
> > > maybe,
keeping
> the ICZN viable and
> > running), but it
is
> > > really
> self-evident that the
> > electronic
amendment was
> > > optimised
for
> the Zootaxa publishing
> > model and to
hell with
> > > any
other
> alternative. There is no
> > room for doubt
regarding
> > > the
Code
> compliance of Zootaxa
> > articles, but
articles from
> > > many
other
> publishers are very much in
> > the "how
liberal
> > > do
you feel"
> bucket, and it isn't
> > going to be
long
> > > before
> taxonomists start renaming taxa
> > already named
by
> > > others
in these
> dubiously valid
> > publications
(just like
> > > Scott
Thomson
> renames taxa from
> > Australasian
Journal of
> > > Herpetology).
> All this is not good! It
> > isn't a corrupt
> > > conspiracy,
or
> anything of the sort.
> > It is just not
good for
> > > zoological
> nomenclature, not good for
> > taxonomy, and
not good
> > > for
science.
> > >
> > > Stephen
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------
> > > On
Mon, 25/1/16,
> Frank T. Krell <Frank.Krell at dmns.org>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >
Subject: RE:
> > > [Taxacom]
> Important note Re: two names
> > online published
-
> > > one
> new species
> > >
To: "Stephen
> > > Thorpe"
<stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>,
> > > "deepreef at bishopmuseum.org"
> > > <deepreef at bishopmuseum.org>,
> > > "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
> > > <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>,
> > > "'Doug
Yanega'"
> <dyanega at ucr.edu>
> > >
Cc: "'engel'" <msengel at ku.edu>
> > >
Received: Monday, 25
> January, 2016, 9:40
> > AM
> > >
> > >
As expected.
> > >
Still being
> pragmatic.
> > >
And
> > >
Zootaxa again, out
> of context, but in
> > your
> > > mind
all
> the time.
> > >
> > >
> > > Frank
> > >
> > >
-----Original
> > > Message-----
> > >
From: Stephen
> Thorpe
> > > [mailto:stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz]
> > >
> > >
Sent: Sunday,
> January 24,
> > > 2016
1:37 PM
> > >
To: deepreef at bishopmuseum.org;
> > >
'Stephen Thorpe'
> <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>;
> > > taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu;
> > > 'Doug
Yanega'
> <dyanega at ucr.edu>;
> > > Frank
T. Krell
> <Frank.Krell at dmns.org>
> > >
Cc: 'engel' <msengel at ku.edu>
> > >
Subject: RE:
> [Taxacom] Important note Re:
> > > two
names
> online published - one
> > new species
> > >
> > >
Frank,
> > >
> > >
That is
> > >
a pretty darn
> liberal
> > > reinterpretation
> of:
> > >
> > >
> > > 8.5.3.1.
The
> entry in the
> > >
Official Register
> > > of
Zoological
> Nomenclature must give
> > the name
and Internet
> > > address
of an
> organization other than
> > the
publisher that
> > > is
intended to
> permanently archive the
> > work in a
manner
> > > that
preserves
> the content and layout,
> > and is
capable of
> > > doing
so. This
> information is not
> > required
to appear in
> > > the
work
> itself.
> > >
> > >
If we
> > > allow
such
> dizzying levels of
> > liberality,
then it is
> > > pretty
much
> "anything goes"!
> > Besides,
publishing
> > > with
a publisher
> that still prints
> > hard
copies effectively
> > > IS
archiving,
> but the Code is clearly
> > not
concerned with
> > > "effectively",
> and it just opens
> > up a huge
scope
> > > for
everyone to
> disagree on the
> > interpretation
of the
> > > Code,
thereby
> causing instability and
> > nomenclatural
chaos
> > > (none
of which
> affects Zootaxa...)
> > >
> > >
Cheers,
> > >
> > >
> > > Stephen
> > >
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------
> > >
On Mon, 25/1/16,
> Frank T. Krell <Frank.Krell at dmns.org>
> > >
wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Subject:
RE:
> > >
[Taxacom] Important
> note Re:
> > > two
names online
> published -
> > one
new species
> > >
To: "deepreef at bishopmuseum.org"
> > >
<deepreef at bishopmuseum.org>,
> > >
"'Stephen Thorpe'"
> <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>,
> > > "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
> > >
<taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>,
> > >
"'Doug Yanega'"
> <dyanega at ucr.edu>
> > >
Cc:
> "'engel'" <msengel at ku.edu>
> > >
Received:
> Monday, 25 January,
> > 2016, 9:31
> > > AM
> > >
> > >
I would
> see the
> > > criteria
> > >
for
> availability more
> > liberally.
> > > Publishing
> with a
> > publisher
that archives all its
> > > publications
> anyway is an
> > intention
to archive.
> > >
Being
> > >
pragmatic.
> > >
> > >
Frank
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
Dr Frank
> > >
T. Krell
> > >
Curator
> of
> > > Entomology
> > >
> Commissioner, International
> > > Commission
> on Zoological
> > Nomenclature
Chair, ICZN
> > > ZooBank
> Committee
> > Department of
Zoology Denver
> Museum
> > > of
Nature
> & Science
> > >
2001
> Colorado
> > > Boulevard
> > >
Denver,
> CO 80205-5798 USA
> > >
Frank.Krell at dmns.org
> > >
> > >
Phone:
> (+1) (303)
> > >
370-8244
> > >
Fax: (+1)
> (303)
> > > 331-6492
> > >
http://www.dmns.org/science/museum-scientists/frank-krell
> > >
lab page:
> http://www.dmns.org/krell-lab
> > >
> > >
Test your
> powers of
> > >
> observation in The
> > International
Exhibition
> > > of
> Sherlock Holmes, open
> > until January
31. And prepare
> > > your
> palate for
> > >
> Chocolate: The
> > > Exhibition,
> > >
opening February
> 12.
> > >
> > >
The
> > >
> > > Denver
Museum of
> Nature
> > >
&
> Science
> > >
salutes the citizens
> of metro Denver for
> > > helping
> fund arts, culture and
> > science through
their
> > > support
of
> the Scientific
> > and Cultural
Facilities
> > > District
> (SCFD).
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original
> > >
Message-----
> > >
From:
> Taxacom [mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu]
> > >
On Behalf
> Of Richard Pyle
> > >
> > >
> > >
Sent: Sunday,
> > >
January
> > > 24,
2016 12:42
> PM
> > >
To:
> 'Stephen
> > >
Thorpe'
> > >
<stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>;
> > >
taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu;
> > >
'Doug
> Yanega' <dyanega at ucr.edu>
> > >
Cc:
> 'engel' <msengel at ku.edu>
> > >
Subject:
> Re: [Taxacom]
> > Important note
Re:
> > >
two names
> online published - one
> > new
> > > species
> > >
> > >
I can
> confirm
> > > that
the
> > >
Archive was added
> to this record
> > > at
2016-01-23
> > >
12:21:46.330 UTC, by
> the
> > > same
login
> account that
> > created
the original
> > > registration.
> Following the
> > principle
that the work
> > > becomes
> available when all
> > requirements
are fulfilled
> > > (see
my previous
> email reply to
> > Laurent on
this list),
> > > and
assuming all
> other
> > requirements for
publication
> are
> > > met,
my
> interpretation would be
> > that the date
of
> > > publication
for
> purposes of
> > priority should
be 23
> > > January
> 2016. If numerous copies
> > of the
paper edition
> > > were
> simultaneously obtainable
> > prior to
this date, and
> > > if
the
> paper edition is in
> > compliance
with the Code for
> > > published
> works printed on
> > paper, then the
date of
> > > publication
> for purposes of
> > priority should
be
> > > interpreted
as
> the date on which
> > numerous copies
of the
> > > printed
edition
> were
> > simultaneously
obtainable (see
> > > Art.
> > >
> > >
21.9).
> > >
> > >
What is,
> or is
> > >
not
> > >
visible
> through the
> > > ZooBank
website
> is irrelevant.
> > The Code
makes reference
> > > to
content in
> the Official
> > Register
of Zoological
> > > Nomenclature,
> only a subset of
> > which is
visible on the
> > > website
> itself. Future
> > versions of the
ZooBank website
> > > (pending
> development
> > >
support) will
> include
> > > more
> robust and publicly
> > visible
documentation of when
> > > specific
> items were added
> > or
amended.
> > >
> > >
> > >
Aloha,
> > >
Rich
> > >
> > >
>
> > >
> > > -----Original
> Message-----
> > >
>
> From:
> > >
Stephen Thorpe
> [mailto:stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz]
> > >
>
> Sent: Sunday, January 24,
> > 2016 9:25
> > > AM
>
> To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu;
> > > Doug
> Yanega > Cc: deepreef at bishopmuseum.org;
> > > engel
>
> Subject: Re:
> > [Taxacom]
Important note Re:
> > > two
names
> online published
> > -
> one new species
> > > >
> > Doug,
> > > >
I'm not sure
> that
> > > this
was
> at all helpful! The
> > addition of
the archive
> > > >
info
> isn't date
> > stamped
(at least not for
> > > public
view).
> Now the
> > record
> misleadingly looks
> > > like
valid
> online first
> > publication on 4
January
> > > 2016:
> > >
>
> > >
http://zoobank.org/References/07554C01-DEC3-4080-A337-B1F46BC9070F
> > >
>
> > >
> As
> far as I
> > >
know,
> > >
the print
> edition may
> > > not
be
> > >
published yet (all
> we > know is
> > > that
it is the
> January
> > >
2016 print
> issue,
> > > which
could
> be > published
> > in
February for all we
> > > know).
So there
> may be no way to
> > >
determine the true
> > > date
of
> availability for the new
> > names.
> > >
> > > Even
if we
> > can get a
> > definitive date
on the hard
> > > copy,
this
> doesn't help much,
> > unless it is on
or
> > > before
4 January
> 2016.
> > >
>
> > >
>
> Stephen
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------
> > >
> On
> Sun, 24/1/16, Doug
> > Yanega <dyanega at ucr.edu>
> > >
wrote:
> > >
>
> > >
> > >
> Subject:
> > >
[Taxacom]
> Important note
> > >
> > > Re:
two names
> online published -
> > >
> > >
> one
> new species
> > >
> > > >
> > >
To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu,
> > >
"engel"
> <msengel at ku.edu>
> > >
> > Received: Sunday, 24
> > January,
> > > 2016,
> > >
7:34 PM
> > >
> > I sent a
> > > note
to the
> authors of the
> > >
Kinzelbachilla paper
> > > (who
had
> not >
> > been CCed
before as Mike Engel
> had),
> > > and
they said
> they have
> > fixed >
the ZooBank record
> > > so
it now
> includes the
> > archive.
Accordingly, for
> > > >
the
> public record, if
> > we follow
the guideline as
> > > Rich
> suggested, all
> > >
of the criteria
> for
> > > availability
> have now been
> > fulfilled
for the
> name in
> > > their
> work.
> > >
>
> > >
> > > >
Most
> interesting of all,
> > however,
if that they
> > > disagree
> regarding >
> > these two
papers
> describing
> > > the
same taxon,
> despite both
> > being
from >
> > > essentially
the
> same type of
> > amber deposit:
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
> > >
"By the way, it is
> not
> > > the
same thing,
> the eyes, for
> > instance,
are >
> > > strikingly
> different."
> > >
>
> > >
> > In other words,
> > >
this
> > > may
not be a
> matter of competing
> > for
priority, >
> > > after
all,
> as Hans had
> > originally
supposed.
> > >
>
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
Peace,
> > >
>
> > >
> > --
> > >
> > Doug
> > > Yanega
> > >
> > >
Dept. of
> > > Entomology
> > >
>
> > >
> > >
> Entomology Research
> > Museum
> > >
>
> > >
Univ. of
> California,
> > > Riverside,
CA
> > >
> > >
> > > 92521-0314
> > >
>
> > skype:
> > >
dyanega
> > >
> > phone:
> > > (951)
> > >
827-4315
> > >
> > > (disclaimer:
> opinions are mine,
> > >
not
> > >
>
> > >
UCR's)
> > >
>
> >
http://cache.ucr.edu/~heraty/yanega.html
> > >
>
> > "There are
some
> > >
> enterprises in which a
> > careful
> > >
disorderliness
> >
> >
is the
> > > true
> method" - >
> > Herman Melville,
Moby Dick,
> > > Chap.
> > >
82 >
> >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > >
> > Taxacom Mailing
> > List
> > >
> > >
> > >
> Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > >
> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > >
> > The Taxacom Archive
> > back to 1992
> > > may
> be searched at:
> > >
> http://taxacom.markmail.org
> > >
>
> > >
> > Celebrating
> > > 29
> > >
years of
> Taxacom in 2016.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > >
Taxacom
> Mailing List
> > >
Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > >
http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > >
The
> Taxacom Archive back to
> > 1992 may be
> > > searched
at: http://taxacom.markmail.org
> > >
> > >
> Celebrating 29 years
> > > of
> > >
Taxacom
> in 2016.
> > >
> _______________________________________________
> > > Taxacom
Mailing List
> > > Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > > The Taxacom
Archive back to 1992
> may be searched at: http://taxacom.markmail.org
> > >
> > > Celebrating
29 years of Taxacom
> in 2016.
> >
> > --
> > __________________________________________________
> >
> > Michael A. Ivie,
Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
> >
> > US Post Office
Address:
> > Montana
Entomology Collection
> > Marsh Labs, Room
50
> > 1911 West
Lincoln Street
> > Montana State
University
> > Bozeman, MT
59717
> > USA
> >
> > UPS, FedEx, DHL
Address:
> > Montana
Entomology Collection
> > Marsh Labs, Room
50
> > 1911 West
Lincoln Street
> > Montana State
University
> > Bozeman, MT
59718
> > USA
> >
> >
> > (406) 994-4610
(voice)
> > (406) 994-6029
(FAX)
> > mivie at montana.edu
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Taxacom Mailing
List
> > Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > The Taxacom
Archive back to 1992 may
> be searched at: http://taxacom.markmail.org
> >
> > Celebrating 29
years of Taxacom in
> 2016.
> >
> > .
> >
>
> --
> __________________________________________________
>
> Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
>
> US Post Office Address:
> Montana Entomology Collection
> Marsh Labs, Room 50
> 1911 West Lincoln Street
> Montana State University
> Bozeman, MT 59717
> USA
>
> UPS, FedEx, DHL Address:
> Montana Entomology Collection
> Marsh Labs, Room 50
> 1911 West Lincoln Street
> Montana State University
> Bozeman, MT 59718
> USA
>
>
> (406) 994-4610 (voice)
> (406) 994-6029 (FAX)
> mivie at montana.edu
>
>
> .
>
--
__________________________________________________
Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
US Post Office Address:
Montana Entomology Collection
Marsh Labs, Room 50
1911 West Lincoln Street
Montana State University
Bozeman, MT 59717
USA
UPS, FedEx, DHL Address:
Montana Entomology Collection
Marsh Labs, Room 50
1911 West Lincoln Street
Montana State University
Bozeman, MT 59718
USA
(406) 994-4610 (voice)
(406) 994-6029 (FAX)
mivie at montana.edu
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