[Taxacom] Important note Re: two names online published - one new species
Michael A. Ivie
mivie at montana.edu
Sun Jan 24 18:23:31 CST 2016
Nah, it was not hypocrisy, it was intentional, just payback for your
actions. And, no, you didn't already answer it, you had only addressed
a unidirectional model of conspiracy and COI. That the direction of
influence was the other way had never been address, more smoke and
mirrors by you.
I take it you have no real experience with milking machines, either.
Your statement would get you laughed out of a milking parlor.
Mike
On 1/24/2016 5:18 PM, Stephen Thorpe wrote:
> BTW, Mike, you accuse me of a "personal attack" against you (for merely pointing out that you asked something that I had already answered!), and then you accuse me of having a (your words) "conspiracy fetish"! There is a word beginning with H which describes you (and possibly words starting with other letters too!) There is no conspiracy, just a common or garden case of COI, plain for all the world to see.
>
> Stephen
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Mon, 25/1/16, Michael A. Ivie <mivie at montana.edu> wrote:
>
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Important note Re: two names online published - one new species
> To: "Stephen Thorpe" <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>, taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> Received: Monday, 25 January, 2016, 1:06 PM
>
> Stephen,
>
> Again, you try to distract us with a personal attack,
> claiming I am not
> doing something "properly." Do try to stick to the
> topic.
> Zootaxa dates to before the amendment but was not compliant
> with the
> amendment before the Amendment was proposed, so your straw
> man is just
> smoke and mirrors to cover your conspiracy fetish.
> Because Zootaxa was
> compliant with the Amendment after the amendment was
> adopted, but by the
> time it was in force, sensibly taking advantage of the long
> announced
> period between being advertized and going into force, is
> simply the
> actions of a good editor trying to work within the needs of
> Zoological
> Nomenclature and our community.
>
> Your argument is like saying cow udders were designed to
> optimized the
> profits of those who make milking machines.
>
> Mike
>
>
> On 1/24/2016 4:37 PM, Stephen Thorpe wrote:
> > If you had read my posts properly, Mike, you would
> already know the answer to that! Which came first? Zootaxa
> or Amendment?
> >
> > Stephen
> >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------
> > On Mon, 25/1/16, Michael A. Ivie <mivie at montana.edu>
> wrote:
> >
> > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Important note
> Re: two names online published - one new species
> > To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > Received: Monday, 25 January, 2016,
> 12:23 PM
> >
> > Stephen,
> >
> > Why is it not more likely, in the face
> of first person
> > testimony from
> > those present, that Zootaxa was
> optimized TO THE AMENDMENT,
> > and not the
> > other way around, which you cling to
> as a drowning man to a
> > piece of
> > styrofoam? Seems to me that a
> publisher that looks at
> > the amendment,
> > and sets their journal to conform to
> it should be put up on
> > a pedestal
> > as an example to the world, not
> accused of nefarious insider
> > trading.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > On 1/24/2016 2:26 PM, Stephen Thorpe
> wrote:
> > > Other publishers were no doubt
> consulted to some
> > extent, yes. Neverthless, we have
> ended up in a situation
> > whereby the electronic amendment is
> optimised to the Zootaxa
> > publishing model, and many other
> publishers fall into a
> > messy and indeterminate basket. Note
> that the Zootaxa
> > publishing model wasn't created so as
> to be fully Code
> > compliant with the electronic
> amendment. The Zootaxa model
> > predates the amendment by several
> years. At the very least,
> > Zhang had inside knowledge of what was
> going to result from
> > the amendment well ahead of time, and
> thereby had an
> > advantage over other publishers.
> > >
> > > These are facts Frank. I cannot
> be wrong. Not unless
> > you can offer a convincing alternative
> explanation as to why
> > the electronic amendment fits Zootaxa
> hand in glove, while
> > other publishers are left in a gray
> zone. Well?
> > >
> > > Stephen
> > >
> > >
> --------------------------------------------
> > > On Mon, 25/1/16, Frank T. Krell
> <Frank.Krell at dmns.org>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Subject: RE:
> [Taxacom] Important note
> > Re: two names online published -
> one new
> > species
> > > To: "Stephen
> Thorpe" <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>,
> > "deepreef at bishopmuseum.org"
> > <deepreef at bishopmuseum.org>,
> > "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
> > <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>,
> > "'Doug Yanega'" <dyanega at ucr.edu>
> > > Cc: "'engel'"
> <msengel at ku.edu>
> > > Received:
> Monday, 25 January, 2016,
> > 10:16 AM
> > >
> > > To you. But you
> are
> > > wrong. You won't
> be convinced
> > otherwise, so it is
> > > useless to
> repeat that other
> > publishers were consulted
> > > etc.
> > > You believe what
> you want anyway.
> > > Frank
> > >
> > > -----Original
> Message-----
> > > From: Stephen
> Thorpe [mailto:stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz]
> > >
> > > Sent: Sunday,
> January 24, 2016 2:11
> > PM
> > > To: Stephen
> Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>;
> > > deepreef at bishopmuseum.org;
> > > taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu;
> > > 'Doug Yanega'
> <dyanega at ucr.edu>;
> > > Frank T. Krell
> <Frank.Krell at dmns.org>
> > > Cc: 'engel'
> <msengel at ku.edu>
> > > Subject: RE:
> [Taxacom] Important note
> > Re: two
> > > names online
> published - one new
> > species
> > >
> > > Frank,
> > >
> > > Zootaxa
> > > is very relevant
> to this whole thread
> > and wider
> > > discussion.
> > >
> > > Fact (1): there
> > > are significant
> problems with the
> > electronic amendment (no,
> > > the sky isn't
> falling down, people
> > aren't running
> > > for the hills in
> droves, etc., but in
> > the context of
> > > zoological
> nomenclature there are
> > significant problems),
> > > none of which
> affect the Zootaxa
> > publishing model.
> > >
> > > Fact (2): the
> owner of Zootaxa
> > > is a prominent
> member of the ICZN who
> > had a significant part
> > > to play in the
> development of the
> > electronic amendment.
> > >
> > > Now, you can
> claim, if you
> > > really want to,
> that facts (1) and (2)
> > are independent,
> > > coincidence, or
> whatever, but to me it
> > looks like a classic
> > > case of a COI.
> The best interests of
> > zoological nomenclature
> > > as a whole are
> not necessarily the
> > best interests of Zootaxa
> > > in particular.
> You make yourself look
> > foolish if you refuse
> > > to acknowledge
> the problem here. You
> > might claim that the
> > > COI is
> outweighed by other more
> > important factors (like,
> > > maybe, keeping
> the ICZN viable and
> > running), but it is
> > > really
> self-evident that the
> > electronic amendment was
> > > optimised for
> the Zootaxa publishing
> > model and to hell with
> > > any other
> alternative. There is no
> > room for doubt regarding
> > > the Code
> compliance of Zootaxa
> > articles, but articles from
> > > many other
> publishers are very much in
> > the "how liberal
> > > do you feel"
> bucket, and it isn't
> > going to be long
> > > before
> taxonomists start renaming taxa
> > already named by
> > > others in these
> dubiously valid
> > publications (just like
> > > Scott Thomson
> renames taxa from
> > Australasian Journal of
> > > Herpetology).
> All this is not good! It
> > isn't a corrupt
> > > conspiracy, or
> anything of the sort.
> > It is just not good for
> > > zoological
> nomenclature, not good for
> > taxonomy, and not good
> > > for science.
> > >
> > > Stephen
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------
> > > On Mon, 25/1/16,
> Frank T. Krell <Frank.Krell at dmns.org>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > Subject: RE:
> > > [Taxacom]
> Important note Re: two names
> > online published -
> > > one
> new species
> > > To: "Stephen
> > > Thorpe" <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>,
> > > "deepreef at bishopmuseum.org"
> > > <deepreef at bishopmuseum.org>,
> > > "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
> > > <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>,
> > > "'Doug Yanega'"
> <dyanega at ucr.edu>
> > > Cc: "'engel'" <msengel at ku.edu>
> > > Received: Monday, 25
> January, 2016, 9:40
> > AM
> > >
> > > As expected.
> > > Still being
> pragmatic.
> > > And
> > > Zootaxa again, out
> of context, but in
> > your
> > > mind all
> the time.
> > >
> > >
> > > Frank
> > >
> > > -----Original
> > > Message-----
> > > From: Stephen
> Thorpe
> > > [mailto:stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz]
> > >
> > > Sent: Sunday,
> January 24,
> > > 2016 1:37 PM
> > > To: deepreef at bishopmuseum.org;
> > > 'Stephen Thorpe'
> <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>;
> > > taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu;
> > > 'Doug Yanega'
> <dyanega at ucr.edu>;
> > > Frank T. Krell
> <Frank.Krell at dmns.org>
> > > Cc: 'engel' <msengel at ku.edu>
> > > Subject: RE:
> [Taxacom] Important note Re:
> > > two names
> online published - one
> > new species
> > >
> > > Frank,
> > >
> > > That is
> > > a pretty darn
> liberal
> > > reinterpretation
> of:
> > >
> > >
> > > 8.5.3.1. The
> entry in the
> > > Official Register
> > > of Zoological
> Nomenclature must give
> > the name and Internet
> > > address of an
> organization other than
> > the publisher that
> > > is intended to
> permanently archive the
> > work in a manner
> > > that preserves
> the content and layout,
> > and is capable of
> > > doing so. This
> information is not
> > required to appear in
> > > the work
> itself.
> > >
> > > If we
> > > allow such
> dizzying levels of
> > liberality, then it is
> > > pretty much
> "anything goes"!
> > Besides, publishing
> > > with a publisher
> that still prints
> > hard copies effectively
> > > IS archiving,
> but the Code is clearly
> > not concerned with
> > > "effectively",
> and it just opens
> > up a huge scope
> > > for everyone to
> disagree on the
> > interpretation of the
> > > Code, thereby
> causing instability and
> > nomenclatural chaos
> > > (none of which
> affects Zootaxa...)
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > >
> > > Stephen
> > >
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------
> > > On Mon, 25/1/16,
> Frank T. Krell <Frank.Krell at dmns.org>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Subject: RE:
> > > [Taxacom] Important
> note Re:
> > > two names online
> published -
> > one new species
> > > To: "deepreef at bishopmuseum.org"
> > > <deepreef at bishopmuseum.org>,
> > > "'Stephen Thorpe'"
> <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>,
> > > "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
> > > <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>,
> > > "'Doug Yanega'"
> <dyanega at ucr.edu>
> > > Cc:
> "'engel'" <msengel at ku.edu>
> > > Received:
> Monday, 25 January,
> > 2016, 9:31
> > > AM
> > >
> > > I would
> see the
> > > criteria
> > > for
> availability more
> > liberally.
> > > Publishing
> with a
> > publisher that archives all its
> > > publications
> anyway is an
> > intention to archive.
> > > Being
> > > pragmatic.
> > >
> > > Frank
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Dr Frank
> > > T. Krell
> > > Curator
> of
> > > Entomology
> > >
> Commissioner, International
> > > Commission
> on Zoological
> > Nomenclature Chair, ICZN
> > > ZooBank
> Committee
> > Department of Zoology Denver
> Museum
> > > of Nature
> & Science
> > > 2001
> Colorado
> > > Boulevard
> > > Denver,
> CO 80205-5798 USA
> > > Frank.Krell at dmns.org
> > >
> > > Phone:
> (+1) (303)
> > > 370-8244
> > > Fax: (+1)
> (303)
> > > 331-6492
> > > http://www.dmns.org/science/museum-scientists/frank-krell
> > > lab page:
> http://www.dmns.org/krell-lab
> > >
> > > Test your
> powers of
> > >
> observation in The
> > International Exhibition
> > > of
> Sherlock Holmes, open
> > until January 31. And prepare
> > > your
> palate for
> > >
> Chocolate: The
> > > Exhibition,
> > > opening February
> 12.
> > >
> > > The
> > >
> > > Denver Museum of
> Nature
> > > &
> Science
> > > salutes the citizens
> of metro Denver for
> > > helping
> fund arts, culture and
> > science through their
> > > support of
> the Scientific
> > and Cultural Facilities
> > > District
> (SCFD).
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original
> > > Message-----
> > > From:
> Taxacom [mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu]
> > > On Behalf
> Of Richard Pyle
> > >
> > >
> > > Sent: Sunday,
> > > January
> > > 24, 2016 12:42
> PM
> > > To:
> 'Stephen
> > > Thorpe'
> > > <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>;
> > > taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu;
> > > 'Doug
> Yanega' <dyanega at ucr.edu>
> > > Cc:
> 'engel' <msengel at ku.edu>
> > > Subject:
> Re: [Taxacom]
> > Important note Re:
> > > two names
> online published - one
> > new
> > > species
> > >
> > > I can
> confirm
> > > that the
> > > Archive was added
> to this record
> > > at 2016-01-23
> > > 12:21:46.330 UTC, by
> the
> > > same login
> account that
> > created the original
> > > registration.
> Following the
> > principle that the work
> > > becomes
> available when all
> > requirements are fulfilled
> > > (see my previous
> email reply to
> > Laurent on this list),
> > > and assuming all
> other
> > requirements for publication
> are
> > > met, my
> interpretation would be
> > that the date of
> > > publication for
> purposes of
> > priority should be 23
> > > January
> 2016. If numerous copies
> > of the paper edition
> > > were
> simultaneously obtainable
> > prior to this date, and
> > > if the
> paper edition is in
> > compliance with the Code for
> > > published
> works printed on
> > paper, then the date of
> > > publication
> for purposes of
> > priority should be
> > > interpreted as
> the date on which
> > numerous copies of the
> > > printed edition
> were
> > simultaneously obtainable (see
> > > Art.
> > >
> > > 21.9).
> > >
> > > What is,
> or is
> > > not
> > > visible
> through the
> > > ZooBank website
> is irrelevant.
> > The Code makes reference
> > > to content in
> the Official
> > Register of Zoological
> > > Nomenclature,
> only a subset of
> > which is visible on the
> > > website
> itself. Future
> > versions of the ZooBank website
> > > (pending
> development
> > > support) will
> include
> > > more
> robust and publicly
> > visible documentation of when
> > > specific
> items were added
> > or amended.
> > >
> > >
> > > Aloha,
> > > Rich
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > -----Original
> Message-----
> > > >
> From:
> > > Stephen Thorpe
> [mailto:stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz]
> > > >
> Sent: Sunday, January 24,
> > 2016 9:25
> > > AM >
> To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu;
> > > Doug
> Yanega > Cc: deepreef at bishopmuseum.org;
> > > engel >
> Subject: Re:
> > [Taxacom] Important note Re:
> > > two names
> online published
> > - > one new species
> > > >
> > Doug,
> > > > I'm not sure
> that
> > > this was
> at all helpful! The
> > addition of the archive
> > > > info
> isn't date
> > stamped (at least not for
> > > public view).
> Now the
> > record > misleadingly looks
> > > like valid
> online first
> > publication on 4 January
> > > 2016:
> > > >
> > > http://zoobank.org/References/07554C01-DEC3-4080-A337-B1F46BC9070F
> > > >
> > > > As
> far as I
> > > know,
> > > the print
> edition may
> > > not be
> > > published yet (all
> we > know is
> > > that it is the
> January
> > > 2016 print
> issue,
> > > which could
> be > published
> > in February for all we
> > > know). So there
> may be no way to
> > > determine the true
> > > date of
> availability for the new
> > names.
> > >
> > > Even if we
> > can get a
> > definitive date on the hard
> > > copy, this
> doesn't help much,
> > unless it is on or
> > > before 4 January
> 2016.
> > > >
> > > >
> Stephen
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------
> > > > On
> Sun, 24/1/16, Doug
> > Yanega <dyanega at ucr.edu>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > >
> > > > Subject:
> > > [Taxacom]
> Important note
> > >
> > > Re: two names
> online published -
> > >
> > > > one
> new species
> > >
> > > >
> > > To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu,
> > > "engel"
> <msengel at ku.edu>
> > >
> > Received: Sunday, 24
> > January,
> > > 2016,
> > > 7:34 PM
> > >
> > I sent a
> > > note to the
> authors of the
> > > Kinzelbachilla paper
> > > (who had
> not >
> > been CCed before as Mike Engel
> had),
> > > and they said
> they have
> > fixed > the ZooBank record
> > > so it now
> includes the
> > archive. Accordingly, for
> > > > the
> public record, if
> > we follow the guideline as
> > > Rich
> suggested, all
> > > of the criteria
> for
> > > availability
> have now been
> > fulfilled for the
> name in
> > > their
> work.
> > > >
> > >
> > > > Most
> interesting of all,
> > however, if that they
> > > disagree
> regarding >
> > these two papers
> describing
> > > the same taxon,
> despite both
> > being from >
> > > essentially the
> same type of
> > amber deposit:
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > "By the way, it is
> not
> > > the same thing,
> the eyes, for
> > instance, are >
> > > strikingly
> different."
> > > >
> > >
> > In other words,
> > > this
> > > may not be a
> matter of competing
> > for priority, >
> > > after all,
> as Hans had
> > originally supposed.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > Peace,
> > > >
> > >
> > --
> > >
> > Doug
> > > Yanega
> > >
> > > Dept. of
> > > Entomology
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> Entomology Research
> > Museum
> > > >
> > > Univ. of
> California,
> > > Riverside, CA
> > >
> > >
> > > 92521-0314
> > > >
> > skype:
> > > dyanega
> > >
> > phone:
> > > (951)
> > > 827-4315
> > >
> > > (disclaimer:
> opinions are mine,
> > > not
> > > >
> > > UCR's)
> > > >
> > http://cache.ucr.edu/~heraty/yanega.html
> > > >
> > "There are some
> > >
> enterprises in which a
> > careful
> > > disorderliness
> >
> > is the
> > > true
> method" - >
> > Herman Melville, Moby Dick,
> > > Chap.
> > > 82 >
> >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > >
> > Taxacom Mailing
> > List
> > >
> > >
> > > > Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > >
> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > >
> > The Taxacom Archive
> > back to 1992
> > > may
> be searched at:
> > > > http://taxacom.markmail.org
> > > >
> > >
> > Celebrating
> > > 29
> > > years of
> Taxacom in 2016.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Taxacom
> Mailing List
> > > Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > > The
> Taxacom Archive back to
> > 1992 may be
> > > searched at: http://taxacom.markmail.org
> > >
> > >
> Celebrating 29 years
> > > of
> > > Taxacom
> in 2016.
> > >
> _______________________________________________
> > > Taxacom Mailing List
> > > Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > > The Taxacom Archive back to 1992
> may be searched at: http://taxacom.markmail.org
> > >
> > > Celebrating 29 years of Taxacom
> in 2016.
> >
> > --
> > __________________________________________________
> >
> > Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
> >
> > US Post Office Address:
> > Montana Entomology Collection
> > Marsh Labs, Room 50
> > 1911 West Lincoln Street
> > Montana State University
> > Bozeman, MT 59717
> > USA
> >
> > UPS, FedEx, DHL Address:
> > Montana Entomology Collection
> > Marsh Labs, Room 50
> > 1911 West Lincoln Street
> > Montana State University
> > Bozeman, MT 59718
> > USA
> >
> >
> > (406) 994-4610 (voice)
> > (406) 994-6029 (FAX)
> > mivie at montana.edu
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Taxacom Mailing List
> > Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may
> be searched at: http://taxacom.markmail.org
> >
> > Celebrating 29 years of Taxacom in
> 2016.
> >
> > .
> >
>
> --
> __________________________________________________
>
> Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
>
> US Post Office Address:
> Montana Entomology Collection
> Marsh Labs, Room 50
> 1911 West Lincoln Street
> Montana State University
> Bozeman, MT 59717
> USA
>
> UPS, FedEx, DHL Address:
> Montana Entomology Collection
> Marsh Labs, Room 50
> 1911 West Lincoln Street
> Montana State University
> Bozeman, MT 59718
> USA
>
>
> (406) 994-4610 (voice)
> (406) 994-6029 (FAX)
> mivie at montana.edu
>
>
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__________________________________________________
Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
US Post Office Address:
Montana Entomology Collection
Marsh Labs, Room 50
1911 West Lincoln Street
Montana State University
Bozeman, MT 59717
USA
UPS, FedEx, DHL Address:
Montana Entomology Collection
Marsh Labs, Room 50
1911 West Lincoln Street
Montana State University
Bozeman, MT 59718
USA
(406) 994-4610 (voice)
(406) 994-6029 (FAX)
mivie at montana.edu
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