Taxacom: Taxacom Digest, Vol 226, Issue 1
Jon Todd
j.todd at nhm.ac.uk
Mon Feb 3 09:54:49 CST 2025
Rich - that is the clearest exposition of this issue of 'names' and their cross-code differences that I've ever read. Thanks so much!
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From: Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at lists.ku.edu> on behalf of taxacom-request at lists.ku.edu <taxacom-request at lists.ku.edu>
Sent: Sunday, February 2, 2025 6:00:04 PM
To: taxacom at lists.ku.edu <taxacom at lists.ku.edu>
Subject: Taxacom Digest, Vol 226, Issue 1
Daily News from the Taxacom Mailing List
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____________________________________
Today's Topics:
1. Re: "Muankengap" in German East Africa (Andy Mabbett)
2. Re: "Muankengap" in German East Africa (Karl-Otto Nagel)
3. Re: Mandatory ending correction after 226 years of wrong
usage - the Dasytes case (Paul van Rijckevorsel)
4. Re: Mandatory ending correction after 226 years of wrong
usage - the Dasytes case (Francisco Welter-Schultes)
5. Re: Mandatory ending correction after 226 years of wrong
usage - the Dasytes case (Paul van Rijckevorsel)
6. Re: Mandatory ending correction after 226 years of wrong
usage - the Dasytes case (Francisco Welter-Schultes)
7. Re: Mandatory ending correction after 226 years of wrong
usage - the Dasytes case (Richard Pyle)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2025 22:37:17 +0000
From: Andy Mabbett <andy at pigsonthewing.org.uk>
To: Michael Oliver <anagenys at gmail.com>
Cc: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
Subject: Re: Taxacom: "Muankengap" in German East Africa
Message-ID:
<CABiXOE=2Fu3LfoC5StTrPK0OuSJT64XSaO8LhDbK5RAUBCpPtg at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
On Thu, 30 Jan 2025 at 01:29, Michael Oliver via Taxacom
<taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
>
> Can anyone suggest a modern name or coordinates for the locality
> "Muankengap"?
I think we have an answer here:
https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FWikipedia%3AReference_desk%2FMiscellaneous%23%2522Muankengap%2522_in_German_East_Africa&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cbcff1156e80742a527b508dd446b19c0%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638741949003995149%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=nvFIhxLQ3miiWHnZN8IVAtFpAleQf9rG3jWA%2FLHeijo%3D&reserved=0<https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FWikipedia%3AReference_desk%2FMiscellaneous%23%2522Muankengap%2522_in_German_East_Africa&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cbcff1156e80742a527b508dd446b19c0%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638741949004009839%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ccDP8MveI85bwo0gjEeeA1QdasHn9zcttAq8we6Lg0w%3D&reserved=0>
In short, "Muankenya", where the Lufilyo River enters Lake
Malawi/Nyassa at its northernmost tip.
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2025 01:38:08 +0100
From: Karl-Otto Nagel <konagel at gmx.de>
To: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
Subject: Re: Taxacom: "Muankengap" in German East Africa
Message-ID: <b24744d4-01f5-480e-b6f0-0eb0069b6b45 at gmx.de>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Compliments, you have found something rare in the deep well of history
with its not always clean water and brought it to light!
Am 01.02.2025 um 23:37 schrieb Andy Mabbett via Taxacom:
> On Thu, 30 Jan 2025 at 01:29, Michael Oliver via Taxacom
> <taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
>> Can anyone suggest a modern name or coordinates for the locality
>> "Muankengap"?
> I think we have an answer here:
>
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FWikipedia%3AReference_desk%2FMiscellaneous%23%2522Muankengap%2522_in_German_East_Africa&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cbcff1156e80742a527b508dd446b19c0%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638741949004022797%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=MuPqcenZMJM0FNkQkgMVhFTNQuye%2B38u4Lc6N73W2ug%3D&reserved=0<https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FWikipedia%3AReference_desk%2FMiscellaneous%23%2522Muankengap%2522_in_German_East_Africa&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cbcff1156e80742a527b508dd446b19c0%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638741949004035164%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=GWivy0xWlV6dG6tvm5WsUCtf3i0ZgXJ9TBUVZ0bKOfs%3D&reserved=0>
>
> In short, "Muankenya", where the Lufilyo River enters Lake
> Malawi/Nyassa at its northernmost tip.
> _______________________________________________
> Taxacom Mailing List
>
> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for 38 years, 1987-2025.
>
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--
Dr. Karl-Otto Nagel
Dr.-Gremmelsbacher-Str. 6, 79199 Kirchzarten
Telefon: 07661-907657, mobil: 0152-53536828
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2025 10:43:35 +0000
From: Paul van Rijckevorsel <dipteryx at freeler.nl>
To: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
Subject: Re: Taxacom: Mandatory ending correction after 226 years of
wrong usage - the Dasytes case
Message-ID: <10593e79-03a3-43a1-920b-cc2fb1cff744 at freeler.nl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
On 29/01/2025 23:44, Douglas Yanega via Taxacom wrote:
>
> [...] Second, you seem to be using a different definition of
> stability than what the Code uses. [...]
> Instability is *when taxonomists disagree* on what
> name/spelling/variant to use. The Code's concept of
> stability/instability is more akin to the dichotomy
> between consensus and dispute, and not the sense of
> "never changing". Names can change a LOT without
> creating instability, as long as all taxonomists adopt
> the changes.
***
If the zoological /Code/ were to mean this by "instability" this
would represent an extremely unfortunate choice of words,
quite unnecessary because there is no lack of words which
would avoid this ambiguity.
Also, it would be quite counter to the spirit of a /Code/ of
nomenclature, in general. The purpose of a /Code/ is to govern
names (directly), and thereby promote consensus among users
(that is, indirectly). Not the other way round.
It is also contradicted by Principle 4: "... would be destructive
of stability or universality ..." which clearly accepts stability
and universality as two separate concepts.
FWIW, under the 'botanical' Code, it is not at all uncommon
to conserve generic names with a particular gender, so as to
avoid changes in endings of epithets.
Paul
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2025 13:03:01 +0100
From: Francisco Welter-Schultes <fwelter at gwdg.de>
To: <taxacom at lists.ku.edu>
Subject: Re: Taxacom: Mandatory ending correction after 226 years of
wrong usage - the Dasytes case
Message-ID: <aa9f5447-f4e9-4137-9a4a-71ea87e68fd2 at gwdg.de>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format=flowed
Dear Paul,
do you know why under the botanical Code changing the ending of epithets
is avoided, by conserving traditionally applied genders for generic names?
Cheers
Francisco
Am 02.02.2025 um 11:43 schrieb Paul van Rijckevorsel via Taxacom:
>
> On 29/01/2025 23:44, Douglas Yanega via Taxacom wrote:
>>
>> [...] Second, you seem to be using a different definition of
>> stability than what the Code uses. [...] Instability is *when
>> taxonomists disagree* on what name/spelling/variant to use. The Code's
>> concept of stability/instability is more akin to the dichotomy between
>> consensus and dispute, and not the sense of "never changing". Names
>> can change a LOT without creating instability, as long as all
>> taxonomists adopt the changes.
> ***
> If the zoological /Code/ were to mean this by "instability" this
> would represent an extremely unfortunate choice of words,
> quite unnecessary because there is no lack of words which
> would avoid this ambiguity.
>
> Also, it would be quite counter to the spirit of a /Code/ of
> nomenclature, in general. The purpose of a /Code/ is to govern
> names (directly), and thereby promote consensus among users
> (that is, indirectly). Not the other way round.
>
> It is also contradicted by Principle 4: "... would be destructive
> of stability or universality ..." which clearly accepts stability
> and universality as two separate concepts.
>
> FWIW, under the 'botanical' Code, it is not at all uncommon
> to conserve generic names with a particular gender, so as to
> avoid changes in endings of epithets.
>
> Paul
> _______________________________________________
> Taxacom Mailing List
>
> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for 38 years, 1987-2025.
>
> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
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> You can reach the person managing the list at: taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
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------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2025 13:14:15 +0000
From: Paul van Rijckevorsel <dipteryx at freeler.nl>
To: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
Subject: Re: Taxacom: Mandatory ending correction after 226 years of
wrong usage - the Dasytes case
Message-ID: <1518681b-87fa-403d-9d97-022218fd14b6 at freeler.nl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Hi Francisco,
Stability.
Paul
On 02/02/2025 12:03, Francisco Welter-Schultes via Taxacom wrote:
> Dear Paul,
> do you know why under the botanical Code changing the ending of
> epithets is avoided, by conserving traditionally applied genders for
> generic names?
>
> Cheers
> Francisco
>
> Am 02.02.2025 um 11:43 schrieb Paul van Rijckevorsel via Taxacom:
>>
>> On 29/01/2025 23:44, Douglas Yanega via Taxacom wrote:
>>>
>>> [...] Second, you seem to be using a different definition of
>>> stability than what the Code uses. [...] Instability is *when
>>> taxonomists disagree* on what name/spelling/variant to use. The
>>> Code's concept of stability/instability is more akin to the
>>> dichotomy between consensus and dispute, and not the sense of "never
>>> changing". Names can change a LOT without creating instability, as
>>> long as all taxonomists adopt the changes.
>> ***
>> If the zoological /Code/ were to mean this by "instability" this
>> would represent an extremely unfortunate choice of words,
>> quite unnecessary because there is no lack of words which
>> would avoid this ambiguity.
>>
>> Also, it would be quite counter to the spirit of a /Code/ of
>> nomenclature, in general. The purpose of a /Code/ is to govern
>> names (directly), and thereby promote consensus among users
>> (that is, indirectly). Not the other way round.
>>
>> It is also contradicted by Principle 4: "... would be destructive
>> of stability or universality ..." which clearly accepts stability
>> and universality as two separate concepts.
>>
>> FWIW, under the 'botanical' Code, it is not at all uncommon
>> to conserve generic names with a particular gender, so as to
>> avoid changes in endings of epithets.
>>
>> Paul
>> _______________________________________________
>> Taxacom Mailing List
>>
>> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for 38 years, 1987-2025.
>>
>> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
>> For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.ku.edu%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cbcff1156e80742a527b508dd446b19c0%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638741949004072144%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=2ROdFPqVGR7UDXlAd%2BxsThzFOr0qTbN6bNqJAkoQ3Tk%3D&reserved=0<https://lists.ku.edu/listinfo/taxacom>
>> You can reach the person managing the list at:
>> taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Taxacom Mailing List
>
> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for 38 years, 1987-2025.
>
> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
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> You can reach the person managing the list at: taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
>
>
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2025 13:24:06 +0100
From: Francisco Welter-Schultes <fwelter at gwdg.de>
To: <taxacom at lists.ku.edu>
Subject: Re: Taxacom: Mandatory ending correction after 226 years of
wrong usage - the Dasytes case
Message-ID: <8ac1a689-4006-4bf8-a014-00397f6fd585 at gwdg.de>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format=flowed
Paul,
In zoology many (or some?) taxonomists argue that changing the ending of
a specific name is not an issue of stability, because the name does not
change, only the ending. Do botanists follow a different approach?
Cheers
Francisco
Am 02.02.2025 um 14:14 schrieb Paul van Rijckevorsel via Taxacom:
> Hi Francisco,
>
> Stability.
>
> Paul
>
>
> On 02/02/2025 12:03, Francisco Welter-Schultes via Taxacom wrote:
>> Dear Paul,
>> do you know why under the botanical Code changing the ending of
>> epithets is avoided, by conserving traditionally applied genders for
>> generic names?
>>
>> Cheers
>> Francisco
>>
>> Am 02.02.2025 um 11:43 schrieb Paul van Rijckevorsel via Taxacom:
>>>
>>> On 29/01/2025 23:44, Douglas Yanega via Taxacom wrote:
>>>>
>>>> [...] Second, you seem to be using a different definition of
>>>> stability than what the Code uses. [...] Instability is *when
>>>> taxonomists disagree* on what name/spelling/variant to use. The
>>>> Code's concept of stability/instability is more akin to the
>>>> dichotomy between consensus and dispute, and not the sense of "never
>>>> changing". Names can change a LOT without creating instability, as
>>>> long as all taxonomists adopt the changes.
>>> ***
>>> If the zoological /Code/ were to mean this by "instability" this
>>> would represent an extremely unfortunate choice of words,
>>> quite unnecessary because there is no lack of words which
>>> would avoid this ambiguity.
>>>
>>> Also, it would be quite counter to the spirit of a /Code/ of
>>> nomenclature, in general. The purpose of a /Code/ is to govern
>>> names (directly), and thereby promote consensus among users
>>> (that is, indirectly). Not the other way round.
>>>
>>> It is also contradicted by Principle 4: "... would be destructive
>>> of stability or universality ..." which clearly accepts stability
>>> and universality as two separate concepts.
>>>
>>> FWIW, under the 'botanical' Code, it is not at all uncommon
>>> to conserve generic names with a particular gender, so as to
>>> avoid changes in endings of epithets.
>>>
>>> Paul
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Taxacom Mailing List
>>>
>>> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for 38 years, 1987-2025.
>>>
>>> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
>>> For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
>>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.ku.edu%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cbcff1156e80742a527b508dd446b19c0%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638741949004104403%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=rOmLjIomBucvLex0UqjCEqGnbfxIO7iipGv%2Fhb5h4JA%3D&reserved=0<https://lists.ku.edu/listinfo/taxacom>
>>> You can reach the person managing the list at:
>>> taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Taxacom Mailing List
>>
>> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for 38 years, 1987-2025.
>>
>> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
>> For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.ku.edu%2Flistinfo%2Ftaxacom&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cbcff1156e80742a527b508dd446b19c0%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638741949004119986%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=aM19KU5rP3Z0gDsRkW92Q%2BE9zo5BxHd1oSASsXCAiZM%3D&reserved=0<https://lists.ku.edu/listinfo/taxacom>
>> You can reach the person managing the list at: taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Taxacom Mailing List
>
> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for 38 years, 1987-2025.
>
> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
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> You can reach the person managing the list at: taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
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------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2025 13:28:50 +0000
From: Richard Pyle <Deepreef at bishopmuseum.org>
To: Paul van Rijckevorsel <dipteryx at freeler.nl>,
"taxacom at lists.ku.edu" <taxacom at lists.ku.edu>
Subject: Re: Taxacom: Mandatory ending correction after 226 years of
wrong usage - the Dasytes case
Message-ID:
<BYAPR01MB535274DB6074B9C3E3B221ACB7EA2 at BYAPR01MB5352.prod.exchangelabs.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
The reason for the different meaning of "stability" between ICZN Code and ICNafp Code is ultimately because of how the word "name" is generally treated differently between practitioners of the two Codes.
This is not precisely enshrined in the Zoological Code (not sure of the botanical Code), but in my many interactions with both categories of taxonomists, folks in the "afp" camp tend to consider a "name" as the full combination, including precise spelling (hence the tracking of authorships of combinations); whereas many in the "Z" camp think of the "name" as a conceptual object, rather than a precise orthography or combination.
For example, whereas the "afp" folks might see the name "Aus albus" as one name, many of the "Z" folks would see that as two "names" (one in the genus group, and one in the species group). But the Z folks are a bit inconsistent on this, as the current Code Glossary provides three definitions for the word "name":
"(1) (general) A word, or ordered sequence of words, conventionally used to denote and identify a particular entity (e.g. a person, place, object, concept). (2) Equivalent to scientific name (q.v.). (3) An element of the name of a species-group taxon: see generic name, subgeneric name, specific name, subspecific name."
Number 2 is more or less consistent with the "afp" interpretation, but many (most?) zoologists I know tend to think of it more in the sense of number 3 definition.
But more to the point, I, and I believe many others, measure "stability" in terms of the *conceptual* name, not in terms of any particular combination or orthography. As Doug explained, "stability" in this sense, means there is an objective set of rules to determine whether the species-group epithet "bus" has nomenclatural priority over the species-group epithet "cus", such that when the name-bearing type of each of these names is deemed taxonomically conspecific, all workers will consistently select the same epithet (also incorporating objective rules for availability). By contrast, many (admittedly not all) zoologists would not interpret a change in generic classification (e.g., "Aus bus" to "Mus bus"), or a change in orthography ("bus" when combined with a masculine genus, vs. "ba" when combined with a feminine genus or "bum" when combined with a neuter genus) as "nomenclatural instability") as "instability" in the nomenclatural sense.
In other words, from the perspective of many zoologists the "stability" that matters is the conceptual name units and their respective availabilities and priorities, rather than any particular combination (=classification) or orthography (=spelling, specific string of characters).
No doubt some zoologists will disagree with my interpretation above.
Aloha,
Rich
Richard L. Pyle, PhD
Director of EXCORE | Senior Curator of Ichthyology | Database Coordinator for Natural Sciences
Bernice Pauahi Bishop Museum
1525 Bernice Street, Honolulu, HI 96817-2704
Office: (808) 848-4115; Fax: (808) 847-8252
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at lists.ku.edu> On Behalf Of Paul van
> Rijckevorsel via Taxacom
> Sent: Sunday, February 2, 2025 5:44 AM
> To: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> Subject: Re: Taxacom: Mandatory ending correction after 226 years of wrong
> usage - the Dasytes case
>
>
> On 29/01/2025 23:44, Douglas Yanega via Taxacom wrote:
> >
> > [...] Second, you seem to be using a different definition of stability
> > than what the Code uses. [...] Instability is *when taxonomists
> > disagree* on what name/spelling/variant to use. The Code's concept of
> > stability/instability is more akin to the dichotomy between consensus
> > and dispute, and not the sense of "never changing". Names can change a
> > LOT without creating instability, as long as all taxonomists adopt the
> > changes.
> ***
> If the zoological /Code/ were to mean this by "instability" this would
> represent an extremely unfortunate choice of words, quite unnecessary
> because there is no lack of words which would avoid this ambiguity.
>
> Also, it would be quite counter to the spirit of a /Code/ of nomenclature, in
> general. The purpose of a /Code/ is to govern names (directly), and thereby
> promote consensus among users (that is, indirectly). Not the other way
> round.
>
> It is also contradicted by Principle 4: "... would be destructive of stability or
> universality ..." which clearly accepts stability and universality as two
> separate concepts.
>
> FWIW, under the 'botanical' Code, it is not at all uncommon to conserve
> generic names with a particular gender, so as to avoid changes in endings of
> epithets.
>
> Paul
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