Taxacom: Barcodes and species

Sun May 26 10:57:40 CDT 2024

Apologies for late response to various inputs on the COI question. Much
appreciated! It seems a rather interesting conundrum - if 100% match is not
necessarily corrected with con-specificity, then I wonder if a more
divergent value (such as I have seen in various papers to justify species
distinction) may also be misleading in this respect. But then this matter
of DNA molecular similarity and phylogenetic correlation still seems like
magic to me, at least at times (as I found out with the human-orangutan
conundrum). Anyway, it looks as though one must take certain findings with
a bit of caution. In a taxonomic catalogue of Hepialidae I did include COI
input from a co-author to synonymise some names, but always with the caveat
in my mind that such decisions are always contingent upon future
verification, if that is even possible

Cheers, John

On Sun, May 26, 2024 at 9:30 AM Richard Pyle via Taxacom <
taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:

> Two of the species we described in this paper:
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdoi.org%2F10.11646%2Fzootaxa.1671.1.2&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C7dba3bb602144e886c3d08dc7d9ca9cd%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638523359013881257%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=r5HPL3nNGbZFGLWpR8UX9hm5cYsnpVuctdM6hkLIuhs%3D&reserved=0
> have multiple instances of identical barcodes (COI) across the type
> specimens of both species.
>
> They are Chromis abyssus and Chromis circumaurea. You can Google them or
> look in the paper linked above to see what they look like.  They both have
> relatively broad (and partially overlapping) distributions. They are not
> dimorphic (either sexually or over the course of their lifestages) -- their
> color patterns are consistent throughout their respective ranges.  There
> has never been a hybrid seen. They differ consistently in morphology as
> well as color.  Even the lumpiest of lumpers would never consider them as
> conspecific. And yet... multiple instances of identical DNA barcodes across
> multiple specimens.
>
> As a side note:  another species described in the same paper -- Chromis
> degruyi -- has a different juvenile coloration that is part of a convergent
> color pattern (mimicry?) among juveniles of several species in this genus.
> So similar are the colors, that one of the juvenile Paratypes of C. degruyi
> is, in fact, a juvenile C. alpha.  We didn't realize this until we saw the
> barcodes.
>
> So... score one point for traditional morphological taxonomy (in the case
> of C. abyssus and C. circumaurea), and one point for the diagnostic value
> of DNA barcodes (C. alpha mistaken as C. degruyi) -- all within a single
> paper!
>
> Aloha,
> Rich
>
> P.S. This is also the paper that launched ZooBank, in case anyone is
> interested...
>
> Richard L. Pyle, PhD
> Director of Natural Sciences | Director of EXCORE
> Senior Curator of Ichthyology | Database Coordinator of Natural Sciences
> Administrator of ZooBank | Mother of Dragons
> Bernice Pauahi Bishop Museum
> 1525 Bernice Street, Honolulu, HI 96817-2704
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> eMail: deepreef at bishopmuseum.org
> BishopMuseum.org
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> environment of Hawaiʻi and the Pacific.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at lists.ku.edu> On Behalf Of Mark Costello
> > via Taxacom
> > Sent: Monday, May 20, 2024 4:09 AM
> > To: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> > Subject: Re: Taxacom: Barcodes and species
> >
> > Dear John,
> > I recall but do not have the paper of some Drosophila species in Hawaii
> that
> > were unmistakably morphologically different species but had the same COI
> > gene. Outside insects, I have been reliably told that some other animals
> taxa
> > (Cnidarians?) have little variation in this gene. Some genes vary more
> and
> > some less between species and higher taxa.
> > Best regards
> > Mark
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at lists.ku.edu> On Behalf Of Marko Prous
> > via Taxacom
> > Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2024 4:30 PM
> > To: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> > Subject: Re: Taxacom: Barcodes and species
> >
> > Dear John,
> >
> > It's possible to have identical barcodes (mitochondrial COI fragment)
> > between species, which can be quite common in some groups (sawflies),
> rare
> > in Lepidoptera. You should check also few nuclear genes (or maybe even
> just
> > one might be enough). If these correlate with morphological differences,
> > good chance that these are different species despite of identical
> > mitochondrial barcodes.
> >
> > Occasional hybridization or incomplete lineage sorting can explain this,
> but if
> > nuclear genes clearly separate the species, mitochondrial introgression
> would
> > be more likely explanation (mitochondrial DNA evolves faster than nuclear
> > DNA).
> >
> > cheers,
> > Marko
> >
> > On 5/19/24 09:07, John Grehan via Taxacom wrote:
> > > As I am pretty ignorant of technical details of species designation
> > > and barcode identity, I would be grateful for any feedback on whether
> > > it is possible for two 'species' to have identical 'barcodes' (never
> > > liked that label with its essentialist connotations).
> > >
> > > I have a colleague who has collected some ghost moths from the same
> > > date and location. There are two morphs - for simplicity 'white spot'
> > > and 'plain'. Dissections of genitalia also show differences, with the
> > > white spot and plain each showing consistent differences, although
> > > only 2 specimens for white spot and 3 for plain. Even with this small
> > > sample I am kind of intrigued that the external difference matches the
> > > internal difference.
> > >
> > > The genitalic differences are prominent enough that I would normally
> > > view them as indicative of species difference. Perhaps there is a
> > > single polymorphic species, but correlated external and internal
> > > differences were a bit of a surprise. Any comments or enlightenment
> > > would
> > be very welcome.
> > >
> > > Cheers, John
> > >
> >
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