Taxacom: regulations affecting taxonomy/biodiversity research (was: Vanuatu export permits)

Sat Jul 20 16:45:43 CDT 2024

I see your points, and as a relatively productive collection-based descriptive taxonomist responsible for a couple dozen new genera and several hundred new species, I most definitely treasure the benefits collected specimens bring! I am not arguing against collecting, but for making the best case we can for the benefits it brings, AND for making  sure those benefits are realized. 
I got into biology because I love animals and plants, and despite working with many thousands of dead specimens, I still like living ones better. It has pained me to see  all too many (by no means all) biodiversity inventories mass-collect many millions of insects but pay less attention to what happens to those specimens afterwards (I believe Neal Evenhuis has written eloquently about this same topic). I thus really like your next to last sentence! 
Of course many more insects are killed by cars and housing developments, and most people don’t even notice. As biologists, we do notice, although we are often relatively powerless to stop it. But we can perhaps have some leading impact by showing we value the organisms’ lives that we are taking in our work. Not by avoiding collecting when we need to collect, but by fully explaining the need and showing and then ensuring the benefit outweighs the cost. All I am asking for… and many of us do it already. 

Jim
Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 20, 2024, at 9:50 PM, Frank T. Krell <Frank.Krell at dmns.org> wrote:
> 
> Jim,
> 
> Your views seem rather dangerous to me. Seeing collecting of a few specimens for scientific purposes as a problem and regulating it is an easy "solution" (without effect), but also without much resistance as collection-based scientists are a pretty soft target, is a distraction from the real threats to the species: "Development" (destruction of habitats), agriculture, pest control subscriptions, traffic, etc. This distraction is the real danger. It seems that too many people think that regulating scientific collection will help conservation. It doesn't.
> 
> Regulating scientific collection helps the administrators of the collecting area or the countries in biodiversity-rich regions to have a say in what is going on on their lands, and give them the opportunity to stipulate local involvement, benefit sharing, etc. This is, or should be, the justification for regulating scientific collecting.
> 
> A scientist does not need to demonstrate that collecting has led to the extinction, because, as far as I am aware, it never has. Regulators or people who think that scientific collecting needs to be restricted because of extinction risk are the ones who should demonstrate this connection.
> 
> And considering ethics, in a country that heavily relies on vehicle traffic, focusing on reflecting on killing a few specimens and neglecting the kill of millions and billions of specimens by, e.g., road traffic is not an ethical strategy for me. Nevertheless, I for myself make sure that every individual that I killed will end up in a curated collection and be available for research. Killed by scientific collecting that is, not by commuting to my office, or by eating non-organic agricultural produce, or by living in a sub-division.
> 
> Frank
> 
> 
> Dr. Frank-Thorsten Krell
> 
> Senior Curator of Entomology, Editor-in-Chief
> Commissioner and Councillor, International Commission on Zoological Nomenclature
> Department of Zoology
> Denver Museum of Nature & Science
> 2001 Colorado Blvd
> Denver, Colorado 80205-5798, U.S.A.
> Frank.krell at dmns.org
> Phone 303.370.8244
> Fax 303.331.6492
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dmns.org%2Fscience%2Fzoology%2Fstaff%2Ffrank-krell%2F__%3B!!DZ3fjg!6vnItmGl0ip-0JJnng4O6UZrtfDvoEFkNQ3Rs0uKRp8AVlodHZsgLdfIliynu2dssE6Mmirbh71iAcRJ5KJIc3xt%24&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cdc4c7f35698145eb465e08dca9055266%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638571087533742179%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=dzAoMMxuJZl%2FhcFfedGkRsaZ73ZraW8%2Fon4oSHMhpl4%3D&reserved=0
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> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at lists.ku.edu> On Behalf Of Whitfield, Jim via Taxacom
> Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2024 2:18 PM
> To: Thomas Pape <tpape at snm.ku.dk>
> Cc: taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Subject: Re: Taxacom: regulations affecting taxonomy/biodiversity research (was: Vanuatu export permits)
> 
> Thanks for those examples, Thomas.
> 
> Once a species becomes very critically endangered, it would seem to me a very high bar of scientific benefit should have to be cleared for justifying collecting specimens. Isn’t it backwards to expect a scientist to have to demonstrate that collecting has led to the extinction of some species before deciding it is not wise to collect?
> It seems an ethical rather than strictly a population management issue to me - are we valuing the proposed  scientific benefit more generously than the life of the organism, and if so, on what basis?
> Not to argue against all scientific collecting of course, but there needs to be a very clear strong benefit in my view to justify collecting rare organisms, and even generally at least some nontrivial benefit to justify any lethal collecting. I think we all have realized scientific benefits from collecting- I surely have  - but it’s useful to remember whether and why we need to kill organisms and is it truly worth it in a particular situation.
> 
> Thanks for a stimulating discussion!
> 
> Jim
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Jul 20, 2024, at 8:17 PM, Thomas Pape via Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> 
>>>>> examples for scientific collecting having resulted in the decline
>>>>> or extinction of species or populations
>> 
>> Scientific collecting is never the primary cause of extinctions but may take out the last specimen, as for the great auk: "Its growing rarity increased interest from European museums and private collectors in obtaining skins and eggs of the bird" [https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FGreat_auk__%3B!!DZ3fjg!554DYxgkmdZiP1-PEGW5HeY7DytTTBsEIMckO7zV3pWOaiAWxWb5nQ6eLaHvlAki4z5xO-7Rn_V18EZhLKFQ1f_e%24&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cdc4c7f35698145eb465e08dca9055266%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638571087533742179%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=g53SXrA%2B%2FhphLzdinKYXFGKsnOC%2BK9NBORAQQEA3GoY%3D&reserved=0 ].
>> 
>> A somewhat similar story apparently holds for the huia [https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FHuia__%3B!!DZ3fjg!554DYxgkmdZiP1-PEGW5HeY7DytTTBsEIMckO7zV3pWOaiAWxWb5nQ6eLaHvlAki4z5xO-7Rn_V18EZhLGOc-8R1%24&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cdc4c7f35698145eb465e08dca9055266%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638571087533742179%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=B2Nm2B%2F05S%2Byjphc%2F8cT5dB8QfUy9gpFSJiIjBEOtKU%3D&reserved=0 ].
>> 
>> /Thomas
>> -------------------------------------------
>> Thomas Pape
>> University of Copenhagen
>> Natural History Museum of Denmark
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at lists.ku.edu> On Behalf Of Frank T.
>> Krell via Taxacom
>> Sent: 20. juli 2024 20:36
>> To: Ashley Field <ashley.field at jcu.edu.au>; Peter Uetz <uetz at vcu.edu>
>> Cc: taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
>> Subject: Re: Taxacom: regulations affecting taxonomy/biodiversity
>> research (was: Vanuatu export permits)
>> 
>> Ashley,
>> 
>> The paper will be mainly about how to regulate scientific collecting sensibly, not whining about what all is done wrong these days. Regulations and international agreements (Rio, Nagoy) will not go away even if they have more severe unintended consequences than positive outcomes.  It is great to hear that the right people are getting involved in Australia when deciding about ethnobotanical collecting.
>> 
>> We will probably mention examples of bad practice and how to do it better. But we will not include anything based on hearsay.
>> 
>> I am still lacking any examples for scientific collecting having resulted in the decline or extinction of species or populations. Does anybody know examples? Or examples that a distribution map or locality list has led to commercial treasure hunting. There must be documented examples out there because we hear this argument so often.
>> Cheers
>> 
>> Frank
>> 
>> 
>> Dr. Frank-Thorsten Krell
>> 
>> Senior Curator of Entomology, Editor-in-Chief Commissioner and
>> Councillor, International Commission on Zoological Nomenclature
>> Department of Zoology Denver Museum of Nature & Science
>> 2001 Colorado Blvd
>> Denver, Colorado 80205-5798, U.S.A.
>> Frank.krell at dmns.org<mailto:Frank.krell at dmns.org>
>> Phone 303.370.8244
>> Fax 303.331.6492
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__https%3A%2F%2Furld%2F__%3B!!DZ3fjg!6vnItmGl0ip-0JJnng4O6UZrtfDvoEFkNQ3Rs0uKRp8AVlodHZsgLdfIliynu2dssE6Mmirbh71iAcRJ5FHQVkMs%24&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cdc4c7f35698145eb465e08dca9055266%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638571087533742179%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Rb%2BDQqWVSCEwunfg9%2Fn3uFTnXPgYo3JhYD%2FamZQZ5vg%3D&reserved=0
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>> 
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>> 
>> 
>> 
>> From: Ashley Field <ashley.field at jcu.edu.au>
>> Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2024 10:29 AM
>> To: Peter Uetz <uetz at vcu.edu>; Frank T. Krell <Frank.Krell at dmns.org>
>> Cc: taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
>> Subject: Re: Taxacom: regulations affecting taxonomy/biodiversity
>> research (was: Vanuatu export permits)
>> 
>> You don't often get email from
>> ashley.field at jcu.edu.au<mailto:ashley.field at jcu.edu.au>. Learn why
>> this is
>> important<https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__https%3A%2F%2Fnam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com%2F%3Furl%3Dhttps*3A__%3BJQ!!DZ3fjg!6vnItmGl0ip-0JJnng4O6UZrtfDvoEFkNQ3Rs0uKRp8AVlodHZsgLdfIliynu2dssE6Mmirbh71iAcRJ5Bg0ktc4%24&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cdc4c7f35698145eb465e08dca9055266%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638571087533742179%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=G4LU%2BqKzpLXW9O%2FQgxKE%2FN5n8uTIjOYSvfNDDMEcUIY%3D&reserved=0
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>> OaiAWxWb5nQ6eLaHvlAki4z5xO-7Rn_V18EZhLIicP2TH%24&data=05%7C02%7Cfrank.
>> krell%40dmns.org%7Cb8c5dcdf4bb647c212ef08dca8f91848%7C4de3e325ed404036
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>> %7C%7C%7C&sdata=hrkj96GwCM%2BLM%2BgkhCfNBXAxLenubcy40jWWDrMYqC0%3D&res
>> erved=0 > Hi Everyone,
>> 
>> I feel there are good reasons for regulating scientific collection of threatened species, and especially the publication of locality records for species threatened by wild harvesting. It is regrettable to create 'treasure maps'.
>> 
>> I also feel there are good reasons for such regulation of species of ethnobotanical significance and areas that have Indigenous land managers. In Australia, everywhere is owned by someone. Increasingly, the permit regulation process involves asking the right people the right questions.
>> 
>> Regards, Ashley Field
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Get Outlook for
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>> ________________________________
>> From: Taxacom
>> <taxacom-bounces at lists.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom-bounces at lists.ku.edu>> on
>> behalf of Peter Uetz via Taxacom
>> <taxacom at lists.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom at lists.ku.edu>>
>> Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2024 4:55:24 PM
>> To: Frank T. Krell <Frank.Krell at dmns.org<mailto:Frank.Krell at dmns.org>>
>> Cc: taxacom
>> <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>>
>> Subject: Taxacom: regulations affecting taxonomy/biodiversity research
>> (was: Vanuatu export permits)
>> 
>> This message was sent from someone external to JCU. Please do not click links or open attachments unless you recognise the source of this email and know the content is safe.
>> 
>> Ah - good idea to document crazy regulations affecting taxonomy/biodiversity research.
>> 
>> In Indonesia you need a research permit for anything you publish - whether you export anything or not (but apparently iNaturalist observations are ok, so if you post on iNat first and then publish, it's apparently acceptable - or maybe not, who knows?). But just publishing a new locality record or natural history note is NOT allowed.
>> 
>> This is really detrimental to research in Indonesia, as it simply frustrates people, so they may just stay away. The rules would be ok if they helped Indonesian research, e.g. by making it mandatory to have Indonesian partners involved (even that's dangerous on its own, as you would immediately invite freeloaders who want publications for not doing anything - which happened in some cases I know about).
>> It's also perfectly ok to regulate export permits and to charge for such permits, but prohibiting research just because it's research, is simply crazy, especially for non-commercial research like taxonomy.
>> 
>> Peter
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>>> On Jul 19, 2024, at 23:48, Frank T. Krell via Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom at lists.ku.edu>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi John,
>>> Exaggerated fees are really frustrating. I am preparing a paper on regulations etc. affecting taxonomy/biodiversity research. Do you have a citable source for this fee? Or an official invoice or something that you could send me privately. I just have to make sure that statements and examples are backed up, otherwise I would shoot myself in the foot.
>>> Thanks
>>> 
>>> Frank
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Dr. Frank-Thorsten Krell
>>> 
>>> Senior Curator of Entomology, Editor-in-Chief Commissioner and
>>> Councillor, International Commission on Zoological Nomenclature
>>> Department of Zoology Denver Museum of Nature & Science
>> 
>> ------------------------------------
>> Peter Uetz
>> Center for Biological Data Science
>> (formerly Center for the Study of Biological Complexity) Virginia
>> Commonwealth University Richmond, VA 23284 USA
>> 
>> Reptile Database
>> (https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__https%3A%2F%2Furl%2F__%3B!!DZ3fjg!6vnItmGl0ip-0JJnng4O6UZrtfDvoEFkNQ3Rs0uKRp8AVlodHZsgLdfIliynu2dssE6Mmirbh71iAcRJ5F2vVbcw%24&data=05%7C02%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cdc4c7f35698145eb465e08dca9055266%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638571087533742179%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=3olUGzBeJ7rpNpA3PFgybJUEij6gCHG0OLCUOMpriIw%3D&reserved=0
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