Taxacom: replacing un-sequenceable types (was Re: Minimalist revision of Mesochorus)

Fri Sep 1 10:54:58 CDT 2023

Hi all,

This conversation reminds me of a joke a friend made, who works in
exactly the field that Peter describes: "once we've taught the robots to
identify species, we'll teach them to love nature for us."

AI and genomics are wonderful tools. Maybe Peter is overselling their
potential a bit, but that isn't the biggest problem. Nor is it perhaps a
bit sad to hand over all the fun and experience to machines. The problem is
that even if it's a fantasy that AI and genomics can do all the work for
us, funders and institutes like to believe such fantasies and won't want to
be left behind. So the resources will be skewed towards these techniques
and the corresponding taxonomic expertise will continue to hobble behind.
Just as it did with previous and equally wonderful (but maybe also oversold
and over-embraced) innovations like DNA-barcoding, informatics,
meta-barcoding etc. etc.

I really appreciate all the excellent contributions that are being made to
this important discussion, but the further we get into moving our
discipline into sequencers and processors, the more we need to make clear
that, ultimately, we're doing this for humans and so need to invest at
least as much in humans...

Feel free to ignore my philosophizing, just needed that off my chest!

Cheers, KD

_________________________________________
*KD (Klaas-Douwe) B Dijkstra*
dragonfly popularizer kddijkstra.nl
my work <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsites.google.com%2Fview%2Fkddijkstra%2Fhome&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C1e8731d73d2b454cd3f408dbab03d271%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638291806267580306%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=NZxpw1cv94xmoQ7e%2F0XX8ZJQojTjq4YcVHDCNwJolu4%3D&reserved=0> and my species
<https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsites.google.com%2Fview%2Fkddijkstra%2Fmy-species%3Fauthuser%3D0&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C1e8731d73d2b454cd3f408dbab03d271%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638291806267580306%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=K7yGvUtV8Rq08A0hxXuTddHClU3z4r95XOTAkT8mIFU%3D&reserved=0>
key appearances and publications
<https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsites.google.com%2Fview%2Fkddijkstra%2Flinks&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C1e8731d73d2b454cd3f408dbab03d271%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638291806267580306%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=iULbmy9I2ALXut0nkwMOxFyWil8eAwC5q0eYz8qvGpE%3D&reserved=0>
African Dragonflies and Damselflies Online <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Faddo.adu.org.za%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C1e8731d73d2b454cd3f408dbab03d271%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638291806267580306%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ey9A0HwzBANKZ2Wj7JoH3yV4UFIfE9V7E5K7NrUXxoY%3D&reserved=0>

On Fri, 1 Sept 2023 at 17:14, Peter Uetz via Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu>
wrote:

>
> In the long run, AI will be able to take into account environmental
> factors, age, etc.
> Hence, it will be able to predict species too, including (potential) gene
> flow etc.
> It’s admittedly everyone’s guess when this will happen (but probably
> sooner than many think).
>
> And yes, nature guides will be replaced by AI too, even without DNA.
> It’s happening already (iNaturalist, Seek, etc.)
>
> You will need both DNA and images to predict phenotypes and species, of
> course.
>
>
>
> > On Sep 1, 2023, at 10:44 AM, Lücking, Robert <R.Luecking at bo.berlin>
> wrote:
> >
> > Dear all,
> >
> > do not forget that taxonomy has a lot of dimensions going far beyond
> science. I don't think you can sell DNA-only-based taxonomy to
> non-scientists, policy makers etc. Nature guides continue to be a
> multi-billion dollar business and I do honestly not imagine these to
> feature images of genome sequences in the future. So while it is necessary
> to support taxon concepts with molecular data, the morphological portion of
> taxonomy is equally required. Or can any of you imagine a tour where you,
> as an expert, tell people: "Unfortunately I cannot identify this critter
> unless I have a genome sequence..."
> >
> > We already have this problem: students start "taxonomy" through lab work
> but have never seen the critters in situ, leading to statements such as:
> "Oh, that's what I have been sequencing... I had no idea...".
> >
> > Also: many species are polymorphic, plus there are external influences,
> plus ontogeny and age, meaning the phenotype cannot be predicted from the
> genotype alone, not even with AI.
> >
> > Expert taxonomists can still identify (most of) their species and some
> have predicted what we now see with molecular data many decades ago based
> on morphology and anatomy and other data alone. The art of taxonomy is not,
> and is not going to be, to predict phenotype from genotype, but continues
> to be to predict species from phenotype, taking into account all available
> information.
> >
> > Robert
> >
>
>
>
> ————————————————————————————————————
> Peter Uetz
> Center for Biological Data Science
> (formerly Center for the Study of Biological Complexity)
> Virginia Commonwealth University
> Richmond, VA 23284
> USA
>
> Reptile Database (https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.reptile-database.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C1e8731d73d2b454cd3f408dbab03d271%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638291806267580306%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=zKa5TVQ8NLwKat%2BdcwmO8zEneN0ydZuS%2BE4VKDa5Kzg%3D&reserved=0)
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fuetz.info%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C1e8731d73d2b454cd3f408dbab03d271%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638291806267580306%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=amzwwUankBVHTeyCznNdshLGolrgkVQ0inACbYY18H4%3D&reserved=0
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Taxacom Mailing List
>
> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> https://lists.ku.edu/listinfo/taxacom
> You can reach the person managing the list at: taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
> The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C1e8731d73d2b454cd3f408dbab03d271%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638291806267580306%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=93OxeJQTkOkon%2FbDi%2FxMiqf%2FEmIwvPTm4Rlefriha90%3D&reserved=0
>
> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity and admiring alliteration for
> about 36 years, 1987-2023.
>