Taxacom: demystifying gender agreement ( was Re: Removals of offending scientific names)

Sun Jun 25 16:25:06 CDT 2023

Dear Stephen,

It depends on the level you want to achieve in a language. If you want to read Horace prima vista then Latin is complex and confusing indeed. But to attribute the correct gender to an adjective in a scientific name is very basic and simple indeed.

Jan

> Op 25 jun. 2023, om 23:17 heeft Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz> het volgende geschreven:
> 
> 
> Dochterland,
> A baby can learn to speak Chinese in a few months, but it is still complex and confusing to me!
> Stephen
> On Monday, 26 June 2023 at 09:08:05 am NZST, Dochterland via Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
> 
> 
> Dear all,
> 
> I would like to add that gender agreement in classical languages is not “complex” or “confusing”. A twelve year old can master it in a few months time.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Jan
> 
> > Op 25 jun. 2023, om 23:02 heeft Francisco Welter-Schultes via Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu <mailto:taxacom at lists.ku.edu>> het volgende geschreven:
> > 
> > Dear Jean-Michel,
> > These are not gender issues, but spelling issues. Their regulations would remain untouched as they are now.
> > 
> > Francisco
> > 
> > Am 25.06.2023 um 18:20 schrieb Jean Michel Maes via Taxacom:
> >> If we go back to the gender of the original publication , to get only one
> >> label for each species, what did we do with capitals (Deyrollei), "-"
> >> (Wentzell-Heckmannae) or special characters ?
> >> JM
> >> Dr. Jean-Michel Maes
> >> Morpho Residency
> >> De Hielera CELSA media cuadra arriba
> >> 21000  Leon
> >> NICARAGUA
> >> Tel.: (505) 2319-9327
> >> Cel. / Whatsapp: 7791-2686
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> >> -----Mensaje original-----
> >> De: Taxacom [mailto:taxacom-bounces at lists.ku.edu <mailto:taxacom-bounces at lists.ku.edu>] En nombre de George
> >> Beccaloni via Taxacom
> >> Enviado el: viernes, 23 de junio de 2023 10:43
> >> Para: Douglas Yanega
> >> CC: taxacom at lists.ku.edu <mailto:taxacom at lists.ku.edu> <mailto:taxacom at lists.ku.edu>
> >> Asunto: Re: Taxacom: demystifying gender agreement ( was Re: Removals of
> >> offending scientific names)
> >> If species names are just labels/unique identifiers, and the original
> >> published name is the most important, and gender agreement is complex to get
> >> right and is confusing to amateurs etc, and making a massive list of all
> >> names will be costly and difficult, and gender agreement is an outdated
> >> practise from a previous era, and gender agreement might not be regarded as
> >> 'inclusive' in this day and age, then its seems like a jolly good idea to
> >> get rid of it and revert to the original published names!
> >> George
> >> ****************************************************************************
> >> *Dr George Beccaloni FLS*
> >> *Director, Alfred Russel Wallace Correspondence Project*
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> >> ResearchGate: https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fprofile%2FGeorge-Beccaloni-2&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C08bcb2bf13084023e24f08db75c2a707%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638233251113860859%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=yqk6omoy2eZlp9NO6X7YcDDJuiKUZBXoFo9BeaqDx7Y%3D&reserved=0 <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fprofile%2FGeorge-Beccaloni-2&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C08bcb2bf13084023e24f08db75c2a707%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638233251113860859%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=yqk6omoy2eZlp9NO6X7YcDDJuiKUZBXoFo9BeaqDx7Y%3D&reserved=0> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fprofile%2FGeorge-Beccaloni-2&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C08bcb2bf13084023e24f08db75c2a707%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638233251113860859%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=yqk6omoy2eZlp9NO6X7YcDDJuiKUZBXoFo9BeaqDx7Y%3D&reserved=0 <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fprofile%2FGeorge-Beccaloni-2&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C08bcb2bf13084023e24f08db75c2a707%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638233251113860859%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=yqk6omoy2eZlp9NO6X7YcDDJuiKUZBXoFo9BeaqDx7Y%3D&reserved=0>>
> >> ****************************************************************************
> >> On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 at 17:30, Douglas Yanega via Taxacom <
> >> taxacom at lists.ku.edu <mailto:taxacom at lists.ku.edu> <mailto:taxacom at lists.ku.edu>> wrote:
> >>> On 6/22/23 8:37 PM, John Grehan wrote:
> >>>> I am not as acquainted with all the experts out there that have
> >>>> commented on this issue, but for the World Catalogue of Hepialidae
> >>>> (hopefully published within a week or two at most) the authors
> >>>> followed a precedent set by some past major players in hepialid
> >>>> taxonomy and used the original form of the species name, regardless
> >>>> of whether correct in the first place, or now in a genus with a
> >>>> different gender. Keeps life simple, and as far as I am concerned,
> >>>> quite comprehensible.
> >>> 
> >>> In principle, that could be true - about it keeping things simple -
> >>> but in practice, it does not seem to work that way.
> >>> 
> >>> The principle relies on all lepidopterists, and all other taxonomists
> >>> using lepidopteran names, having access to a single authoritative
> >>> master list of names (otherwise, people would need to each have access
> >>> to copies of the original literature). In practice, there are LOTS of
> >>> different sources for lep names, and they are very commonly in
> >>> conflict with one another, here and there. The same species can have
> >>> two different spellings scattered throughout the literature, as well
> >>> as online sources, and that is not "keeping it simple".
> >>> 
> >>> The very first butterfly name I looked up just now - a butterfly I
> >>> learned as "Mitoura gryneus" several decades ago - is one that stuck
> >>> in my head as a budding entomologist because it was the very first
> >>> time in my life I had learned a scientific name that was explained to
> >>> me as being a gender mismatch, and when I first learned that
> >>> lepidopterists didn't use gender agreement. The noteworthy thing about
> >>> it is that if you do a verbatim Google search, you can find hundreds
> >>> of sources that have "Mitoura gryneus", hundreds more that have
> >>> "Mitoura grynea", hundreds more that have "Callophrys gryneus", and
> >>> hundreds more that have "Callophrys grynea".
> >>> 
> >>> That does not at all look simple to me, and *that's just the first
> >>> name I looked up*. I'm willing to wager that if there are other common
> >>> leps with obvious gender mismatches, that they'll have a very high
> >>> probability of appearing in the literature with multiple conflicting
> >>> spellings.
> >>> 
> >>> This exemplifies EXACTLY why I advocate for a single authoritative
> >>> master list. No system of gender agreement, even ZERO gender
> >>> agreement, is going to ensure that everyone, everywhere, is on the
> >>> same page unless there is a single shared resource that everyone uses
> >>> to obtain the proper spelling. When everyone does their own
> >>> independent research, people can come to different conclusions,
> >>> leading to inconsistency. If the master list gives the spelling
> >>> variants, *and tells you when to use which variant*, then there is no
> >> reason not to keep gender agreement.
> >>> Both approaches - keeping gender agreement or abandoning it - at
> >>> *that* point would require exactly the same amount of effort: typing a
> >>> name into a search engine linked to a list, and following the result.
> >>> 
> >>> It's called "having our cake and eating it too".
> >>> 
> >>> Peace,
> >>> 
> >>> --
> >>> Doug Yanega      Dept. of Entomology      Entomology Research Museum
> >>> Univ. of California, Riverside, CA 92521-0314    skype: dyanega
> >>> phone: (951) 827-4315 (disclaimer: opinions are mine, not UCR's)
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> >>>    "There are some enterprises in which a careful disorderliness
> >>>          is the true method" - Herman Melville, Moby Dick, Chap. 82
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> >>> for about 36 years, 1987-2023.
> >>> 
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> >> You can reach the person managing the list at: taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu <mailto:taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu> <mailto:taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu>
> >> The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> >> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C08bcb2bf13084023e24f08db75c2a707%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638233251113860859%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=MNQ%2FsABo7HF0UsbYvWsoDDhkMbNEPb%2FQL%2Fnoz7M5zAA%3D&reserved=0 <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C08bcb2bf13084023e24f08db75c2a707%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638233251113860859%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=MNQ%2FsABo7HF0UsbYvWsoDDhkMbNEPb%2FQL%2Fnoz7M5zAA%3D&reserved=0> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C08bcb2bf13084023e24f08db75c2a707%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638233251113860859%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=MNQ%2FsABo7HF0UsbYvWsoDDhkMbNEPb%2FQL%2Fnoz7M5zAA%3D&reserved=0 <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C08bcb2bf13084023e24f08db75c2a707%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638233251113860859%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=MNQ%2FsABo7HF0UsbYvWsoDDhkMbNEPb%2FQL%2Fnoz7M5zAA%3D&reserved=0>>
> >> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity and admiring alliteration for
> >> about 36 years, 1987-2023.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Taxacom Mailing List
> > 
> > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu <mailto:taxacom at lists.ku.edu> <mailto:taxacom at lists.ku.edu>
> > For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit: https://lists.ku.edu/listinfo/taxacom <https://lists.ku.edu/listinfo/taxacom> <https://lists.ku.edu/listinfo/taxacom <https://lists.ku.edu/listinfo/taxacom>>
> > You can reach the person managing the list at: taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu <mailto:taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu> <mailto:taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu>
> 
> > The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at: https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C08bcb2bf13084023e24f08db75c2a707%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638233251113860859%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=MNQ%2FsABo7HF0UsbYvWsoDDhkMbNEPb%2FQL%2Fnoz7M5zAA%3D&reserved=0 <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C08bcb2bf13084023e24f08db75c2a707%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638233251113860859%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=MNQ%2FsABo7HF0UsbYvWsoDDhkMbNEPb%2FQL%2Fnoz7M5zAA%3D&reserved=0> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C08bcb2bf13084023e24f08db75c2a707%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638233251113860859%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=MNQ%2FsABo7HF0UsbYvWsoDDhkMbNEPb%2FQL%2Fnoz7M5zAA%3D&reserved=0 <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C08bcb2bf13084023e24f08db75c2a707%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638233251113860859%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=MNQ%2FsABo7HF0UsbYvWsoDDhkMbNEPb%2FQL%2Fnoz7M5zAA%3D&reserved=0>>
> > 
> > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity and admiring alliteration for about 36 years, 1987-2023.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Taxacom Mailing List
> 
> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu <mailto:taxacom at lists.ku.edu>
> For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit: https://lists.ku.edu/listinfo/taxacom <https://lists.ku.edu/listinfo/taxacom>
> You can reach the person managing the list at: taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu <mailto:taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu>
> The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at: https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C08bcb2bf13084023e24f08db75c2a707%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638233251114016643%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=4voqX8B%2FbXVxgot9vsxgwgrKe2zHog%2ForXYtBWO3SE8%3D&reserved=0 <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C08bcb2bf13084023e24f08db75c2a707%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638233251114016643%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=4voqX8B%2FbXVxgot9vsxgwgrKe2zHog%2ForXYtBWO3SE8%3D&reserved=0>
> 
> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity and admiring alliteration for about 36 years, 1987-2023.