Taxacom: Removals of offending scientific names
Stephen Thorpe
stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz
Fri Jun 23 22:19:34 CDT 2023
Mike,
My statement was a direct quote, so I didn't mean anything by it. I'm no historian, but internet sources like Wikipedia are consistent in claims that the British were the first to abolish slavery, though I guess that might mean in terms of government policy rather than more local efforts.Stephen
On Saturday, 24 June 2023, 12:50:28 pm NZST, Ivie, Michael <mivie at montana.edu> wrote:
Oh, Stephen, you are drinking the KoolAide. What do you think you mean by that statement? Slavery did not end under the Union Jack until 1840 (far after your late 18th century), but no one could be born into slavery in Pennsylvania nor slaves imported into the state after 1780, after the Brits had been removed from power. Pennsylvania was an independent state in 1780, by the way. Several polities of the newly independent North American states were far ahead of the British. The British practiced slavery for 308 years, the USA for 76 - both inexcusable. All US slavery had a legal basis established by the British. My family was abolitionist in North America from 1720, and there were large and effective abolitionist movements in the new USA alongside (and allied with) those in the UK, but that does not represent the government position at the time. Self-congratulatory versions of virtue are not actual facts.
And, racism is not ended by abolition.
Mike
__________________________________________________
Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
NOTE: two addresses with different Zip Codes depending on carriers
US Post Office Address:
Montana Entomology Collection
Marsh Labs, Room 50
PO Box 173145
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UPS, FedEx, DHL Address:
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1911 West Lincoln Street
Montana State University
Bozeman, MT 59718
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(406) 994-6029 (FAX)
mivie at montana.edu
From: Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2023 6:00 PM
To: George Beccaloni <g.beccaloni at gmail.com>; Ivie, Michael <mivie at montana.edu>
Cc: taxacom at lists.ku.edu <taxacom at lists.ku.edu>
Subject: Re: Taxacom: Removals of offending scientific names
**External Sender**
Mike,
"The British were, by the late eighteenth century, the biggest proponents of the abolition of slavery worldwide, having previously been the world's largest slave dealers."
StephenOn Saturday, 24 June 2023 at 11:49:01 am NZST, Michael A. Ivie <mivie at montana.edu> wrote:
George,
Again, self-serving rewrite of history. The N word as a racist term was introduced into the New World by the British, and taught to generations of British subjects up to 1789. It was absolutely used derogatorily by the British. Defining people as black or white is an outcome of the British trading system of slavery, and was supported by the exclusion of people they called that word from the British Isles and selling them to British colonies, which were populated by and ruled by the British.
This is NOT a USA issue, it was practiced up until living memory by British rulers in British colonies.
Show us a paper written by a black Briton that says the N word was not racist.
Mike
On 6/23/2023 5:38 PM, George Beccaloni wrote:
**External Sender**
No, in the UK, the paper I read said it was not a racist term and simply meant black person. There wasn't another commonly used word or phrase for place people at the time that I am aware of. That means that many of the species names which were based on the word, and which were published by British workers, were probably innocuous.
George
**************************************************************************Dr George Beccaloni FLSDirector, Alfred Russel Wallace Correspondence Project
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On Sat, 24 Jun 2023 at 00:30, Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz> wrote:
To be more precise, in the US, it has become a highly derogatory term for a white person to call a black person, but perfectly fine for a black person to call another black person. I suspect that even in the U.K., it was actually always used within a framework of racism, but the levels of racism were much less serious/obvious than in the US.
Stephen
On Saturday, 24 June 2023 at 10:59:06 am NZST, George Beccaloni <g.beccaloni at gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Stephen,
A while ago I did some research into use of the N-word in Victorian times, because people were criticizing Darwin and Wallace for (very occasionally) using it. I discovered that in the UK it simply meant a black person and was not meant to be offensive, but in the USA it became a highly derogatory term for a black person.
George**************************************************************************Dr George Beccaloni FLSDirector, Alfred Russel Wallace Correspondence Project
Wallace Correspondence Project: https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwallaceletters.myspecies.infowallace%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C43c3d1259b434e9bfd1308db7461d715%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638231735821631772%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=bRWUAg8XgX1QuFYKtey6yD%2BIXtTfscYAAM5Kk41GXNs%3D&reserved=0 Memorial Fund: https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwallacefund.myspecies.inforesearchgate%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C43c3d1259b434e9bfd1308db7461d715%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638231735821631772%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=xVnEsIX%2FxrwuH5qjOjEK08J3h1AJu6zhNhoepDQDb2o%3D&reserved=0: https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fprofile%2FGeorge-Beccaloni-2**************************************************************************&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C43c3d1259b434e9bfd1308db7461d715%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638231735821631772%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=YsEJHnvLB%2ForvoeN3IXbzOg4bWTUA2U%2FItz93velqtI%3D&reserved=0
On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 at 23:22, Stephen Thorpe via Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
There are interesting complications with Mike's example of the N-word. For one thing, people use it all the time without raising an eyebrow, providing that they are black people talking about each other, in a non derogatory way. It would seem, however, that a white person, by virtue of their skin colour,is not allowed to use the term, regardless of their intentions. So certain terms can only be used by certain groups in society, without being considered offensive. The other thing is that grammatical variants of the N-word are commonplace in taxonomy (and elsewhere). The epithets niger and nigra just mean black. Presumably the country of Nigeria is named for the skin colour of its indigenous people. There is a hilarious clip on YouTube where a young white American guy reacts to an episode of the 1970s British comedy Fawlty Towers. Out of the blue, in the middle of the episode, the characters start talking about ni66ers. The young guy reacting doesn't say anything, but the uncomfortable and somewhat panicked look on his face is priceless!
Anyway, my point , once again, is that offensiveness is subjective and relative to geography and race, whereas taxonomy is (more or less) objective and global in scope. Hence, I doubt very much whether it is possible to sanitize taxonomy from everything that anybody might find offensive.
Stephen On Friday, 23 June 2023 at 04:42:46 am NZST, Michael A. Ivie via Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
Let us remember that offensive names, images and words can have value as
warnings and instructive historical lessons. How many would have missed
an important lesson if the statute of Ozymandias had been removed?
Doesn't the name Anophtalmus hitleri Scheibel 1937 remind us of the
popularity of the horrible man in the German speaking world at one
time? Doesn't that give us the lesson to think about who we support
today? Doesn't the original text of Huckleberry Finn or To Kill a
Mockingbird give insight into the world experienced by our ancestors,
both oppressed and oppressor? Isn't it instructive to understand that
your ancestors behaved in a despicable way? Is there harm or value in
that realization? I am all for the descendants of Nazis and
slaveholders being embarrassed about it. That embarrassment hopefully
will inspire them to be better people than their ancestors.
And does it not give humanity, dignity and respect to those who endured
under such disrespect and cruelty to acknowledge how deeply embedded it
was in even everyday speech? Doesn't it bring pride in understanding
what they went through and still maintained their humanity and endured?
Horror, revulsion and sorrow are appropriate responses, and should be
embraced as such. To avoid that is to diminish the sacrifice and
suffering of those who were victims.
There is a line after which these things can't continue -- no new
statues of Hitler, and the old statues of Jefferson Davis go to museums,
not the public square. Use of the N-word should be immediately shamed
and called out today anytime it is not in an historical context that is
used to educate. But, their existence is important.
At what point do we stop if we start down the path. The Lampyridae
genus Chegueveria was named by a Russian entomologist. Che was a hero to
many and a demon to many others. Is this name OK or not? Does it bring
pain to the ancestors to those he murdered? Probably, but also joy to
those he liberated. Which one wins? It is just a name, a moniker, the
taxon does not take on characteristics of others with the same name.
Even worse, the name was applied to a species from Puerto Rico, where
Che never went and was not involved. So, it is historically ignorant as
well. Can we ban names for being stupid?
Eventually we will get to names that some just consider rude or
inappropriate in polite company. Clitoria Linneaus or Orchis Linneaus
come to mind. Do they have to go?
And, what about specimen labels? Many, many labels on specimens have
place names that would not be used today, but they are historic
documents and must be quoted verbatim. This is uncomfortable, and we
should be glad for the reflective moment that uncomfortableness brings.
It shows growth and allows for reflection.
Before I get the "old white man has no standing" I counter with being
raised in a visible religious minority that was subject to derogatory
names, derision, lies and slander, as well as discrimination. I had to
see my mother called derogatory names because of her dress and beliefs.
While I "passed" and left that community, it is still painful to hear
statements by people who do not know my background. And, as a disabled
person, I know, hear and endure slurs and microaggressions in my daily
life. But, sticks and stones....
Each and every historic name that offends is a teaching moment when it
is used. This is not totally a bad thing. It allows examination of our
history, warts and all. Sugar coating and covering up that horrible
things happened by making references go away is not compatible with
facing them and making sure they never return. Nor does their use
equate with glorifying evil. The people who do that are beyond our reach.
Mike
On 6/22/2023 8:49 AM, Frank T. Krell via Taxacom wrote:
> **External Sender**
>
> Nerdy, elitist gender agreement? Me thinking follow grammar being not so badly. But that's just me 😊, coming from a language well organized by grammar.
> If you don't want gender agreement, create specific names as nouns in apposition, like abba, beccaloni, boris. And you are right, names are just labels.
> I have recently seen a manuscript, hopefully soon to be published, that finds that naming after celebrities helps much with the visibility of taxonomy. This is important in these times where only things get recognized and supported that people are talking about.
> Names are always a reflection of the time in which they were created. Eradicating history is counterproductive. We need to be reminded of these villains of the past, as often as possible.
> Frank
>
>
> Dr. Frank-Thorsten Krell
>
> Senior Curator of Entomology, Editor-in-Chief
> Commissioner and Councillor, International Commission on Zoological Nomenclature
> Department of Zoology
> Denver Museum of Nature & Science
> 2001 Colorado Blvd
> Denver, Colorado 80205-5798, U.S.A.
> Frank.krell at dmns.org
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> Fax 303.331.6492
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>
>
> Bugs: Son más grandes, mejores y más increíbles que nunca. En la exhibición "Bugs" todo gira en torno al vuelo de precisión, la inteligencia en grupo y el control mental. ¡Descubre lo genios que son!
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at lists.ku.edu> On Behalf Of George Beccaloni via Taxacom
> Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2023 5:11 AM
> To: Michael Heads <m.j.heads at gmail.com>
> Cc: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> Subject: Re: Taxacom: Removals of offending scientific names
>
> Names are just labels - there is no need to understand them. IMHO they
> should be unchanging, and the nerdy, elitist requirements of the Code
> relating to gender agreement should be scrapped as they make tracking names
> difficult in our modern computerised world.
>
> George
> ****************************************************************************
> *Dr George Beccaloni FLS*
> *Director, Alfred Russel Wallace Correspondence Project*
>
> Wallace Correspondence Project: https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwallaceletters.myspecies.info%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C43c3d1259b434e9bfd1308db7461d715%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638231735821631772%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=BRY6pbEnPvEedUy1x4bKYkOL4jfGP%2B8RTMqfoaf4mDg%3D&reserved=0
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> ****************************************************************************
>
>
> On Thu, 22 Jun 2023 at 11:58, Michael Heads via Taxacom <
> taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
>
>> Abba is a good name for a genus - short, memorable... I'm grateful that
>> the 19th century taxonomists who named most of the genera in many groups
>> *didn't* use the names of contemporary pop groups, pet politicians and
>> other cultural ephemera. If they had, the names would now be
>> meaningless, and we instead we can write with future users in mind. But
>> preferences like this should not be law!
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>> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity and admiring alliteration for
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>
> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity and admiring alliteration for about 36 years, 1987-2023.
--
__________________________________________________
Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
NOTE: two addresses with different Zip Codes depending on carriers
US Post Office Address:
Montana Entomology Collection
Marsh Labs, Room 50
PO Box 173145
Montana State University
Bozeman, MT 59717
USA
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Marsh Labs, Room 50
1911 West Lincoln Street
Montana State University
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Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity and admiring alliteration for about 36 years, 1987-2023.
--
__________________________________________________
Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
NOTE: two addresses with different Zip Codes depending on carriers
US Post Office Address:
Montana Entomology Collection
Marsh Labs, Room 50
PO Box 173145
Montana State University
Bozeman, MT 59717
USA
UPS, FedEx, DHL Address:
Montana Entomology Collection
Marsh Labs, Room 50
1911 West Lincoln Street
Montana State University
Bozeman, MT 59718
USA
(406) 994-4610 (voice)
(406) 994-6029 (FAX)
mivie at montana.edu
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