Taxacom: policing the scientific lexicon and misuse of the term woke

Sun Jun 18 05:25:01 CDT 2023

Good for you Pavel!

-----Original Message-----
From: Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at lists.ku.edu> On Behalf Of Pavel Gol'din via Taxacom
Sent: Sunday, June 18, 2023 1:11 PM
To: Jill Oberski <jtoberski at ucdavis.edu>
Cc: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
Subject: Re: Taxacom: policing the scientific lexicon and misuse of the term woke

Courage, Jill!

I really feel we are in a Jurassic park here.

All the best,
Pavel

On Sun, 18 Jun 2023, 03:49 Jill Oberski via Taxacom, <taxacom at lists.ku.edu>
wrote:

> Longtime reader, first time writer, jumping into the fire to point out 
> the
> following:
>
> An old white man insisting that his definition for “woke” is the right 
> one, combined with his statements about how women in science are 
> overly concerned about their minority status, is the very picture of 
> why taxonomy is largely a stale, outdated, and intensely homogenous 
> community of scientists. There are two women on the ICZN of 27 
> commissioners. Put another way: 7%.
>
> On the topic at hand: Do I think we should change existing patronyms?
> No. But are small  changes a slippery slope towards the destruction of 
> a stable taxonomic system? Also no.
>
> The reality (i.e., that senior scientists are still complaining about 
> these issues in writing, with an audience, and creating a hostile 
> environment for everyone outside their exact demographic) is far more 
> absurd than the “silly” possibility that someone may overturn a 
> species epithet honoring Adolf Hitler.
>
> It is 2023. Do better.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Jill Oberski, Ph.D.
> University of California Davis
> Dept. of Entomology and Nematology
> On Jun 17, 2023 at 15:49 -0700, Stephen Thorpe via Taxacom < 
> taxacom at lists.ku.edu>, wrote:
> > Well, I'm happy to use another suitable term instead of woke, but, 
> > to
> me, a term means whatever people use it to mean, not necessarily what 
> it meant originally. Although hardly 100% reliable as a source, 
> Wikipedia usually gives a good idea of what terms mean, and the first 
> paragraph of the WP article for woke states:
> > Woke is an adjective derived from African-American Vernacular 
> > English
> (AAVE) meaning "alert to racial prejudice and discrimination". 
> Beginning in the 2010s, it came to encompass a broader awareness of 
> social inequalities, such as sexism, and has also been used as 
> shorthand for some ideas of the American Left involving identity 
> politics and social justice, such as white privilege and slavery reparations for African Americans.
> >
> > The semantic issue is however, not really the point. I agree with 
> > you
> that the idea of changing or policing of patronyms or other epithets 
> is silly, but there are a number of moderately influential people 
> pushing hard for it, in the peer reviewed scientific literature. The 
> silly can happen, if we are not careful. Here is an example of the 
> pushback against some of these ideas, specifically objecting to 
> replacing established names with indigenous counterparts: doi 
> 10.1080/0028825X.2021.2011752
> > Quite where all this is heading, I'm not sure. Hopefully, the
> potentially disruptive proposals will fail to gain much more traction, 
> but I have known university academics who are very focussed on these 
> sorts of issues, such as, for example, women scientists who are more 
> interested in the issue of women in science than they are with the science itself.
> > Stephen
> > On Sunday, 18 June 2023 at 10:29:21 am NZST, Michael A. Ivie <
> mivie at montana.edu> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Wrong in the second sentence.  Woke is not about social justice, it 
> > is
> about personal growth and increasing awareness.  From there, empathy 
> can expand, and everything goes from there.  It is not what you 
> describe, that is what the right wants to hijack the term for.
> >
> > The idea of changing or policing patronyms and other names is not
> involved with woke.  It is just silly.  You can't attack every kid 
> named Adolf.  Stop misuing WOKE.
> >
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > On 6/17/2023 4:16 PM, Stephen Thorpe wrote:
> >
> >
> > **External Sender**
> > I'm not sure that there has been any misuse of the term woke at all. 
> > The
> basic idea of woke is social justice, but you can't police how broadly 
> or narrowly the term can be used. I was talking specifically about the 
> woke agenda, specifically as it relates to biological nomenclature and taxonomy.
> So, you can use some term other than woke if you like, but the actual 
> issue under discussion here is whether or not it would be sensible to 
> place social justice requirements on nomenclature and taxonomy? Would 
> it actually serve any useful function, in the name of social justice, 
> to retrospectively cancel and replace patronyms for people who are 
> seen as having been socially unjust? Hitler would be the paradigm 
> example. However, the existence of clear and easily agreed cases 
> doesn't imply that all cases are clear. For example, Roger Waters is 
> seen by some as a champion of social justice, for speaking up for the 
> human rights of Palestinians, but is seen by some others as an 
> antisemite/Nazi, for speaking up for the human rights of Palestinians! 
> Which is it? Biological nomenclature has global scope, so there will 
> be a lot of very different sociopolitical views in the mix. Note also 
> that it is only a small step from cancelling patronyms to cancelling 
> the entire body of work by a taxonomist who is seen (by some) as 
> having been socially unjust. Some taxonomists will very 
> enthusiastically embrace the opportunity to do a lot of superficial 
> renaming of taxa. There will be a mixture of views on this issue even 
> within the taxonomic community. The ICZN has shown itself to be not 
> all that good at dealing with issues of a broadly political nature, 
> what with the ongoing herpetological chaos resulting from the Hoser 
> problem. I'm hoping that the social justice issue doesn't gain 
> traction in taxonomy and add to the chaos! Don't forget, we have 
> already had some university academics (Shane
> Wright) publishing proposals to replace the taxonomic names of iconic 
> New Zealand native species to better reflect indigenous values, e.g. 
> Agathis australis to Agathis kauri.
> > Stephen
> > On Sunday, 18 June 2023 at 08:51:40 am NZST, Michael A. Ivie via 
> > Taxacom
> <taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
> >
> > Matt, Leslie and others,
> >
> > Let a 68 year old white US male explain Woke to those who do not 
> > seem to get it.  My father grew up so poor his parents put him out 
> > with relatives as a farm hand to earn room and board at 8.  My 
> > mother was from a family of share croppers and worked as a maid. 
> > Both did get to go to school, up to 13 for my mom, and high school 
> > for my dad.  After my dad served in WWII, my parents married, and my 
> > dad used the GI Bill to get a teaching degree and buy a house. That 
> > was the total beginning of the middle class life and 
> > inter-generational wealth I grew up thinking was normal.
> >
> > I grew up in California, no Jim Crow bull for us, we were morally 
> > superior!  I gave one day's lunch money each week to civil rights 
> > workers in the South.  In high school, I first met black kids. About 
> > 20% of my high school was black, and we had classes, choir, gym and 
> > social events together, made friends and knew each other. Many of 
> > their fathers were also WWII vets, but they almost all (OK, all) 
> > lived in poorer areas and many if not most rented.  I really never 
> > thought about it.  Good people who lived differently is what my mom 
> > told me.  During that period California Hwy 99 was made into a 
> > freeway through the city where my high school was, and in digging out the route and accesses, several "bad"
> > neighborhoods were "cleaned up" (i.e. removed).  I had no idea where 
> > the displaced people went, they did not go anywhere near me.
> >
> > NOWHERE in any of my background did I know that the veteran fathers 
> > of the black kids did not get the GI Bill benefits my dad got.  I 
> > had no idea that the areas where they lived had been red lined so 
> > that GI Bill loans were not available there.  No one ever told me 
> > that the economics of my family were based on educational attainment 
> > and property ownership not available to my friends' fathers, or that 
> > the higher salaries and home value increases financed our upward 
> > mobility.  I did not know that the freeway route was not chosen 
> > because it was the best route but because it was cheap land and 
> > those living there did not have the political clout to have a voice.
> >
> > We were not bad because of our families progress, but we did not 
> > really understand the role privilege had in the different outcomes 
> > for my friends.  We didn't deny it, we didn't even think about it to deny it.
> > We did nothing to keep others down, but did not have a basis for 
> > understanding how to lift other up beyond charity.  My ignorance was 
> > not by choice, it just was.  We knew all about slavery, Jim Crow and 
> > Martin Luther King, but the knowledge was very superficial, and we 
> > thought that was all in the past, or being fixed for the future.
> >
> > Not until late in life did I really start to learn about why this 
> > difference existed.  How institutional but hidden (from normal white
> > people) factors rigged the system in our favor, and to the detriment 
> > of people with the theoretically same rights but who just did not make it.
> > I was always progressive in my views, as were my parents, but did 
> > not even know the background for the disparities I spoke against.  
> > Only more recently have I been awakened to how the situation occurred.
> >
> > There you have it, I have been made aware, awakened, I WOKE UP!
> >
> > That is WOKE, and I am proud of it.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > On 6/16/2023 6:38 PM, Matthew Medeiros via Taxacom wrote:
> > > **External Sender**
> > >
> > > After years of reading these posts passively, I've never been 
> > > moved to
> post
> > > here before, but YES, thank you Les, and Kristina as well.  The 
> > > misuse
> of
> > > the term "woke" on this list over the last couple days, and the 
> > > lack of understanding, has been a huge bummer.  I could not have 
> > > said it better than Les.
> > >
> > > -Matt
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, Jun 16, 2023 at 5:29 PM Kristina LEMSON via Taxacom < 
> > > taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hear hear Leslie Watling, and thankyou for your post.
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at lists.ku.edu> on behalf of Leslie
> Watling
> > > > via Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu>
> > > > Sent: Friday, June 16, 2023 11:36:06 PM
> > > > To: taxacom at lists.ku.edu <taxacom at lists.ku.edu>
> > > > Subject: Taxacom: policing the scientific lexicon and misuse of 
> > > > the
> term
> > > > woke
> > > >
> > > > EXTERNAL EMAIL - Be careful with links and attachments.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >   From all the messages and replies in this thread, it seems to 
> > > > me
> the term
> > > > woke has been adopted as a pejorative, which is not the true 
> > > > meaning
> of the
> > > > term. The word "woke" arose in the Black community in the US as 
> > > > a
> way to
> > > > talk about seeing others with understanding and compassion. The 
> > > > right wingers have usurped the word  and made it sound bad, 
> > > > evil,
> something to be
> > > > stamped out, which could be nothing further from the truth.
> > > >
> > > > So, unless you agree with the right-wingers, please stop using 
> > > > the
> term
> > > > "woke" to label ideas and statements you don't agree with. But 
> > > > also,
> if you
> > > > can, be "woke" to the ills of others less fortunate than you.
> > > >
> > > > Best,
> > > > Les
> > > >
> > > > Les Watling
> > > > Professor Emeritus
> > > > School of Life Sciences
> > > > University of Hawaii
> > > >
> > > > Professor Emeritus
> > > > School of Marine Sciences
> > > > University of Maine
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Matthew J. Medeiros, Ph.D.
> > > Pacific Biosciences Research Center, UH Mānoa, Honolulu, HI 96822 
> > > (postdoctoral scholar) School of Life Sciences, UNLV, Las Vegas, 
> > > NV 89154 (research associate) https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmattjmedeiros.com%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cf807480d635345a57ff808db6fe64aa0%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638226807106961885%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=fAG3LXPt8XDwSbwZCFIrGLgZjp4t1gcA%2FcK1E58Kv3A%3D&reserved=0 
> > > https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.yewlab.com%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cf807480d635345a57ff808db6fe64aa0%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638226807106961885%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=O3L%2FXk87QKQJLRacm88fRZYNd6Z%2BCAHXojvkouaSpEU%3D&reserved=0 https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fdonpricelab.wordpress.com%2Fpeople%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cf807480d635345a57ff808db6fe64aa0%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638226807106961885%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=zSKB%2BKntyW5r%2BtCAOSdPm3eaKR7VAnVKfnSe7vKc22U%3D&reserved=0
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Taxacom Mailing List
> > >
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> > >
> > > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity and admiring 
> > > alliteration
> for about 36 years, 1987-2023.
> >
> > --
> > __________________________________________________
> >
> > Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
> >
> > NOTE: two addresses with different Zip Codes depending on carriers
> >
> > US Post Office Address:
> > Montana Entomology Collection
> > Marsh Labs, Room 50
> > PO Box 173145
> > Montana State University
> > Bozeman, MT 59717
> > USA
> >
> > UPS, FedEx, DHL Address:
> > Montana Entomology Collection
> > Marsh Labs, Room 50
> > 1911 West Lincoln Street
> > Montana State University
> > Bozeman, MT 59718
> > USA
> >
> >
> > (406) 994-4610 (voice)
> > (406) 994-6029 (FAX)
> > mivie at montana.edu
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Taxacom Mailing List
> >
> > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu For 
> > list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
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> > The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
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> >
> > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity and admiring alliteration 
> > for
> about 36 years, 1987-2023.
> >
> > --
> > __________________________________________________
> >
> > Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
> >
> > NOTE: two addresses with different Zip Codes depending on carriers
> >
> > US Post Office Address:
> > Montana Entomology Collection
> > Marsh Labs, Room 50
> > PO Box 173145
> > Montana State University
> > Bozeman, MT 59717
> > USA
> >
> > UPS, FedEx, DHL Address:
> > Montana Entomology Collection
> > Marsh Labs, Room 50
> > 1911 West Lincoln Street
> > Montana State University
> > Bozeman, MT 59718
> > USA
> >
> >
> > (406) 994-4610 (voice)
> > (406) 994-6029 (FAX)
> > mivie at montana.edu
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Taxacom Mailing List
> >
> > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu For 
> > list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
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> > The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
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> >
> > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity and admiring alliteration 
> > for
> about 36 years, 1987-2023.
> _______________________________________________
> Taxacom Mailing List
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>
> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity and admiring alliteration 
> for about 36 years, 1987-2023.
>
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Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity and admiring alliteration for about 36 years, 1987-2023.