Taxacom: type versus description (was Re: Minimalist revision of Mesochorus)

Thu Aug 31 12:51:20 CDT 2023

As it should be negotiating with museums for the opportunity to fo
destructive sampling of a type is not easy. Like many others I have not
always received a yes to that and in for example the paper where I sampled
19 types we actually sampled 20 and asked for about 26. One failed we think
because it was boiled in WWII the others were denied. For reasons Doug
alluded to no where in that paper do we say we were told no. One thing that
does need to happen though I think with advancing tech the intellectual
property of types should belong to the museum holding them. This way DNA
sequences will be supplied on condition of the sampling and the museum can
provide these to subsequent requests if they are the same genes. After all,
it's best if each type is only tampered with minimally. If it's done once
properly, the DNA sequence and left over tissues will negate the need for
it to be done again.

Also remember that many specimens are collected as part of a series, even
if not given any type status these additional specimens are often suitable
for destructive sampling for DNA,

Cheers Scott

On Thu, Aug 31, 2023 at 2:36 PM Richard Pyle via Taxacom <
taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:

> Ah!  Good, point, Doug!  I never thought of it that way before.  While
> it's not a direct provision of the Code, it's an indirect consequence of
> taxonomists following a mismatched description without examining the type,
> at least in some cases where:
>
> - Name established with name-bearing type and description
> - Description is not consistent with the type
> - Broader taxonomic community consistently applies the name to organisms
> matching the description, rather than the type
> - Via prevailing usage, the indirect consequence of the description
> mismatch ends in favor of the description
>
> As you note, however, the same applies (and probably more frequently) when
> the type and the description agree with each other, but the broader
> taxonomic community nevertheless established a prevailing usage situation
> where the application of the name did not accord with either the type or
> the description (and/or the description was sufficiently vague that it
> applied equally to both the type and to members of another taxon).
>
> But I agree there are a subset of situations where a description can
> (indirectly, through its effect on prevailing usage) come into alignment
> with the name, to the exclusion of the original name-bearing type.  Even in
> that situation, the remedy is to establish a neotype, in which case the
> name-bearing type re-acquires its supremacy.
>
> Aloha,
> Rich
>
>
>
> Richard L. Pyle, PhD
> Senior Curator of Ichthyology | Director of XCoRE
> Bernice Pauahi Bishop Museum
> 1525 Bernice Street, Honolulu, HI 96817-2704
> Office: (808) 848-4115;  Fax: (808) 847-8252
> eMail: deepreef at bishopmuseum.org
> BishopMuseum.org
> Our Mission: Bishop Museum inspires our community and visitors through the
> exploration and celebration of the extraordinary history, culture, and
> environment of Hawaiʻi and the Pacific.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at lists.ku.edu> On Behalf Of Douglas
> > Yanega via Taxacom
> > Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2023 4:49 AM
> > To: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> > Subject: Taxacom: type versus description (was Re: Minimalist revision of
> > Mesochorus)
> >
> > On 8/30/23 6:59 PM, Richard Pyle via Taxacom wrote:
> > > In this context, the latter requirement (description or definition)
> has no real
> > "function" (at least not one that is necessarily useful) in the business
> of
> > nomenclature.  It certainly serves an extremely important function for
> > *taxonomy*, and indeed a lot of the difference between "good" taxonomy
> > and "bad" taxonomy boils down to how robust and accurate this description
> > or definition is. But it serves almost no function for nomenclature sensu
> > stricto.  The closest function it might serve for nomenclature is as a
> "backup"
> > to the name-bearing type (when the latter is not accessible or is lost),
> and
> > similarly as a guide for selecting a neotype or lectotype.  But even
> then, there
> > are no rules in the Code that leverage the description or definition in
> this
> > way.
> >
> > This is not *always* the case, however. There is one Article in the Code
> > where a description MIGHT override a type: Article 75.6.
> >
> > "When an author discovers that the existing name-bearing type of a
> nominal
> > species-group taxon is not in taxonomic accord with the prevailing usage
> of
> > names and stability or universality is threatened thereby, he or she
> should
> > maintain prevailing usage [Art. 82] and request the Commission to set
> aside
> > under its plenary power [Art. 81] the existing name-bearing type and
> > designate a neotype."
> >
> > While there are several ways such a discrepancy might arise, there IS a
> subset
> > of these cases where the description conforms to the taxon known by a
> > name, but the type does not, so the type has to be replaced.
> >
> > Peace,
> >
> > --
> > Doug Yanega      Dept. of Entomology       Entomology Research Museum
> > Univ. of California, Riverside, CA 92521-0314     skype: dyanega
> > phone: (951) 827-4315 (disclaimer: opinions are mine, not UCR's)
> >               https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ffaculty.ucr.edu%2F~heraty%2Fyanega.html&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ca5434343d1644d57431c08dbaa4ae8e0%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638291010933520327%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Srki9mrOLBIU%2FedfA8TldtKoZxVzVeo%2BTY7EFbe8EQs%3D&reserved=0
> >    "There are some enterprises in which a careful disorderliness
> >          is the true method" - Herman Melville, Moby Dick, Chap. 82
> > _______________________________________________
> > Taxacom Mailing List
> >
> > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu For list
> > information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> > https://lists.ku.edu/listinfo/taxacom
> > You can reach the person managing the list at:
> taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
> > The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> > https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ca5434343d1644d57431c08dbaa4ae8e0%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638291010933520327%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=hcp9RJjE49E5XllSp%2B36mDzQ62rNLaE7hbkCwpJtlG0%3D&reserved=0
> >
> > Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity and admiring alliteration for
> > about 36 years, 1987-2023.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Taxacom Mailing List
>
> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: taxacom at lists.ku.edu
> For list information; to subscribe or unsubscribe, visit:
> https://lists.ku.edu/listinfo/taxacom
> You can reach the person managing the list at: taxacom-owner at lists.ku.edu
> The Taxacom email archive back to 1992 can be searched at:
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftaxacom.markmail.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ca5434343d1644d57431c08dbaa4ae8e0%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638291010933520327%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=hcp9RJjE49E5XllSp%2B36mDzQ62rNLaE7hbkCwpJtlG0%3D&reserved=0
>
> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity and admiring alliteration for
> about 36 years, 1987-2023.
>

-- 
Scott Thomson

Centro de Estudos dos Quelônios da Amazônia - CEQUA
Petrópolis, Manaus
State of Amazonas, 69055-010
Brasil

https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.carettochelys.com%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ca5434343d1644d57431c08dbaa4ae8e0%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638291010933520327%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=tJg8jjCs9XMMLIxiGo7%2FpGybnU75LjpahnlK%2BSqpMMs%3D&reserved=0
ORCID: https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Forcid.org%2F0000-0003-1279-2722&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ca5434343d1644d57431c08dbaa4ae8e0%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638291010933520327%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=qiBGtRAai%2BRGz9zCi0itHmdlgSvKk5s4WNjEX8pQIAM%3D&reserved=0
Lattes: *https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flattes.cnpq.br%2F0323517916624728*&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ca5434343d1644d57431c08dbaa4ae8e0%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638291010933677013%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=5PpN%2BF0wQy2FgmUbI%2FqBJLPdFOqRJ6S8gkK8hCSVqGU%3D&reserved=0
<https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwwws.cnpq.br%2Fcvlattesweb%2FPKG_MENU.menu%3Ff_cod%3D1E409F4BF37BFC4AD13FD58CDB7AA5FD%23&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ca5434343d1644d57431c08dbaa4ae8e0%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638291010933677013%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=6xI8t7uC8lwEXIFeQdwGs6NBF2NY0Vigycy7qs%2FG96Q%3D&reserved=0>
Skype: Faendalimas
Mobile Phone Brasil: +55 11 98178 7270
Whatsapp: +55 11 98178 7270