Taxacom: Minimalist revision of Mesochorus Gravenhorst, 1829

Wed Aug 30 13:58:25 CDT 2023

Following this with interest. I've no time to write anything more than
address the lack of DNA lab technology most people have raised by Buz.

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If you can use the mail and have $40 for a kit, you can get DNA barcodes
for 4 specimens ($10 each). This is meant for citizens to use so it's
pretty accessible.

-Derek

On Wed, Aug 30, 2023 at 10:47 AM Buz Wilson via Taxacom <
taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:

> Taxacom, despite the long and sometimes tedious arguments, again serves
> up an interesting paper or issue facing systematists these days. The
> Sharkey et al (2023) inspired me (typically not posting on Taxacom) to
> comment because it shows how small fragments of mtDNA can be useful for
> research but how they also fail to provide "taxonomy". While I enjoyed
> Rod Page's perspective on the matter, I think that, rather than the
> traditional taxonomic practice, the inappropriate use of the taxonomic
> format is the problem. I add to Michael Ivie's post, having followed a
> similar path studying isopod crustaceans.
>
>      1. I agree with Sharkey et al. about the Dasch (1974) key as being
> not useful at all. Any key that uses "or" for two different states for
> the same couplet or undefined adverbs such as "very", as well as using
> difficult and idiosyncratic terminology, is immediately problematic. On
> a planet with literally billions of distinct evolutionary lineages
> (approx= species), a fraction of these included in a key to species in a
> speciose genus is not useful at all (as are single species descriptions
> but that's another issue). Phylogenetic relationships and evolutionary
> patterns of these distinct lineages are more useful to biological science.
>      2. The paper found morphologically distinct specimens whose COI
> fragments coded for identical amino acids. Collecting all such
> identified traits into a character list that was coded across all
> specimens studied could provide simple morphological diagnoses for each
> species. Had they done this for their diagnoses, the fieldworker would
> have the ability to sort their specimens into morphospecies more easily.
> Using a COI fragment as a "diagnosis" is not useful except for those who
> have a DNA lab on call.  (We are still a long way away from having a
> "Tricoder".)
>      3. mtDNA is useful for distinguishing species but may not be useful
> for describing species. My experience with COI and 16S data from a
> species complex of isopod crustaceans
> <
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dropbox.com%2Fscl%2Ffi%2Fog569epm9wc4rhwal290m%2FWilson_Humphrey_2020_Eophreatoicus_zt4854_modified_reduced.pdf%3Frlkey%3Dfobygx0r514jq1lut9nm9vmkh%26dl%3D0&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C552b5fdf01734d8919eb08dba98b1ec8%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638290187815556042%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=IcCqPR4icevFpiupqZ6Jw%2B752Vvwa1rKYzcEBWsqnuA%3D&reserved=0>
>
> (30+ species; NB: 6.9MB) shows that one can get not only sequences that
> code for the same amino acids but completely identical sequences
> (suggesting that the entire mitochondrion was identical) occur in
> populations of different morphological species. As a result, I am
> uncomfortable with the implication that unique "barcodes" equal unique
> species. Synonyms can occur in DNA "taxonomy", too.
>      4. Using the traditional taxonomic description format seems
> unnecessary as was the titular term "Revision". In this point, the aims
> of this scientific enterprise need to be more clearly stated. The paper
> identifies many possibly distinct putative species with detailed
> associated metadata. These data then can be used for ecological
> conservation, evolutionary and other biological inquiries, which should
> be the primary uses. Formal taxonomy is unnecessary since the species
> already have distinct labels associated with useful data.
>
> --
> George D.F. (Buz) Wilson, Ph.D.
> Saugatuck Natural History Laboratory, LLC
> website (currently offline): www snhlab com
> publications: www researchgate net/profile/George-Wilson-12
> email: gdfw at SNHLab com
>
> On 2023-08-30 12:06, Michael A. Ivie via Taxacom wrote:
> > While I am not a convert, can we restart this conversation by
> > recognizing we have a problem?  I have discovered (collected and
> > curated) a couple to several thousand new species of beetles and other
> > things in my career, but have managed to describe a couple dozen, and
> > colleagues have added a couple dozen more.  I suspect I am pretty
> > representative of 69 year old systematists with an active field
> > program.  If our goal is to distinguish and share information of the
> > type in this new paper, where they describe "158 new species and host
> > records for 129 species," the approach those who work like I do is
> > simply not going to work.  I will die with thousands of new species,
> > their associations and characteristics still hidden from the people of
> > the tropical countries where I obtained them.  Don't we have to
> > discuss how our current system is failing to achieve our goals?  Isn't
> > Sharkey et al challenging us to face this?  If we don't want to follow
> > their path, don't we have to propose something equally effective
> > rather than just blast them for not doing it our (admittingly failing)
> > way?  I suggest that for ever criticism, an alternative be proposed.
> >
> > Mike
> >
>
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> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity and admiring alliteration for
> about 36 years, 1987-2023.
>

-- 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
*Derek S. Sikes*, Curator of Insects, Professor of Entomology
University of Alaska Museum (UAM), University of Alaska Fairbanks
1962 Yukon Drive, Fairbanks, AK   99775-6960
dssikes at alaska.edu phone: 907-474-6278 he/him/his
University of Alaska Museum <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.uaf.edu%2Fmuseum%2Fcollections%2Fento%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C552b5fdf01734d8919eb08dba98b1ec8%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638290187815556042%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=HfrEdFdI3NJcgov%2FQnJDFQlw%2BEU8ALjjZXf%2FYYjOylw%3D&reserved=0>
-  search 393,654 digitized arthropod records
<https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Farctos.database.museum%2Fuam_ento&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7C552b5fdf01734d8919eb08dba98b1ec8%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C638290187815556042%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=jAEUuVKh7ziJ52IuFqG912dL6%2BYAiFSZNz5LtsefPR4%3D&reserved=0>
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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