Taxacom: "Early Permian" angiosperms... real or not real taxa/names?

[David Campbell]

The work in question seems to be validly published (though I am less
familiar with the rules of the botanical code).  The names thus probably
have nomenclatural validity.
https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.academia.edu%2F23423661%2FFossil_flora_and_stratigraphy_of_the_Terrigenous_Kungurian_beds_Lower_Permian_of_the_basin_of_the_Barda_River_Urals_Perm_krai_&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ce00c4006e33a425b331808da462e8de2%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637899463605690604%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=7XYhux8vHMb2WdRo1KA523yPckx2QTXkd8HEVEtTdh0%3D&reserved=0
is
a more conventional interpretation of flora from the area as gymnosperms.

Angara seems to have attached to other blocks as part of Pangea by the
Carboniferous, rather than being separate through the Triassic, although
there could have been some sort of biogeographic barrier.

I don't trust either the algorithms or the level of care taken in fossil
calibration for molecular clocks, myself, but as a paleontologist I'm
probably biased towards relying on the fossils themselves.

On Thu, Jun 2, 2022 at 4:09 PM Tony Rees via Taxacom <taxacom at lists.ku.edu>
wrote:

> Dear Taxacomers,
>
> As some of you will be aware, with IRMNG (the Interim Register of Marine
> and Nonmarine Genera) I attempt to compile a synoptic list of published
> genus names, arranged in a "management classification" (an attempt at
> synthesis of what seems to be current practise in the literature), for all
> life i.e. animals, plants and more (including the most obscure
> microfossils, viruses and prokaryotes).
>
> Currently I am attempting to back fill some gaps in recently published
> fossil plant names and came across this work and some of its associated
> publications: "The Evolution of the First Flowers Early Permian
> Angiosperms" by Michael Wachtler, apparently more or less self published by
> the Dolomythos Museum, Italy, see
>
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fprofile%2FWachtler-Michael%2Fpublication%2F341323347_The_Evolution_of_the_First_Flowers_-_Early_Permian_Angiosperms%2Flinks%2F5ebac7e392851c11a8620fbc%2FThe-Evolution-of-the-First-Flowers-Early-Permian-Angiosperms.pdf&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ce00c4006e33a425b331808da462e8de2%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637899463605690604%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=gtPoQxmOjbnhJNja%2Bq6EGPGlZapYdify6b%2FUckCf5%2BA%3D&reserved=0
> , in which he establishes a number of new genera and species for what he
> insists are new Permian angiosperm flowers, a contention carried through to
> a number of other, similar works.
>
> Since otherwise, the earliest accepted angiosperm fossils do not appear
> until the Cretaceous (refer e.g. Herendeen et al. 2017,
>
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nature.com%2Farticles%2Fnplants201715&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ce00c4006e33a425b331808da462e8de2%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637899463605690604%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=qCnEUpINAYNNPYjivpxymke5oS4Wd%2B4Ldp5Z9g%2FrJJI%3D&reserved=0),
> one is forced to the
> conclusion that either Wachtler's fossils are not angiosperms, or not
> Permian, or perhaps not either, although they do look like flowers from his
> pictures. Perhaps the dating is wrong - I am no specialist in such matters;
> but in any case there is at least a 150 million year difference between the
> start of the Permian and the start of the Cretaceous periods (with all of
> the Triassic and Jurassic between), so something is badly amiss...
>
> Nevertheless, I am wondering whether Wachtler's published names should
> stand, from a nomenclatural point of view, irrespective of the
> "challenging" ages ascribed to them, or whether they do not merit inclusion
> in my system on the basis of possibly invalid publication (which does not
> seem to be the case) or other considerations. I note of interest, that
> Wachtler's publications do seem to be cited by no-one but himself, which
> does raise a bit of a red flag...
>
> Your opinions welcome!
>
> Thanks in advance - Tony
>
> Tony Rees, New South Wales, Australia
>
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fabout.me%2FTonyRees&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Ce00c4006e33a425b331808da462e8de2%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637899463605690604%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=nS9W6Cfklnw%2BM2ToZy83XvroW1hK6XaDpzj4uhsFA5w%3D&reserved=0
>
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-- 
Dr. David Campbell
Associate Professor, Geology
Department of Natural Sciences
110 S Main St, #7270
Gardner-Webb University
Boiling Springs NC 28017