Taxacom: "Early Permian" angiosperms... real or not real taxa/names?

[Michael Heads]

Hi Tony, yes, the dates are hypothetical. But so are identifications of
fossils.

On Fri, Jun 3, 2022 at 11:12 AM Tony Rees <tonyrees49 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Michael, yes but unless I am mistaken, these are only hypothetical
> dates based on suggestions from molecular evidence. So far as I am aware
> there are still no "accepted" pre-Cretaceous angiosperm fossils. Were
> Mr/Dr Wachtler's "Early Permian angiosperms" to be authenticated by other
> workers the results would be a paleobotanical sensation, which is I suspect
> why they have been published outside the mainstream literature, more than
> likely without peer review...
>
> I still wonder what it is he is describing, though...
>
> Tony Rees, New South Wales, Australia
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fabout.me%2FTonyRees&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cea755b1c75c2445000b008da4523ea5e%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637898317971662007%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=VGEsYLRFTGtJcgw7PEl5tede%2BkVV66e2pHDVugRRGRU%3D&reserved=0
>
>
> On Fri, 3 Jun 2022 at 07:10, Michael Heads <m.j.heads at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Tony,
>>
>> Dates for angiosperms in recent studies include:
>> Triassic to Late Permian (Beaulieu et al., 2015); Triassic-Permian
>> (Zhang et al., 2020); Triassic-Carboniferous (Salomo et al., 2017), and
>> Permian (Yang et al., 2020).
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 3, 2022 at 8:09 AM Tony Rees via Taxacom <
>> taxacom at lists.ku.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Taxacomers,
>>>
>>> As some of you will be aware, with IRMNG (the Interim Register of Marine
>>> and Nonmarine Genera) I attempt to compile a synoptic list of published
>>> genus names, arranged in a "management classification" (an attempt at
>>> synthesis of what seems to be current practise in the literature), for
>>> all
>>> life i.e. animals, plants and more (including the most obscure
>>> microfossils, viruses and prokaryotes).
>>>
>>> Currently I am attempting to back fill some gaps in recently published
>>> fossil plant names and came across this work and some of its associated
>>> publications: "The Evolution of the First Flowers Early Permian
>>> Angiosperms" by Michael Wachtler, apparently more or less self published
>>> by
>>> the Dolomythos Museum, Italy, see
>>>
>>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fprofile%2FWachtler-Michael%2Fpublication%2F341323347_The_Evolution_of_the_First_Flowers_-_Early_Permian_Angiosperms%2Flinks%2F5ebac7e392851c11a8620fbc%2FThe-Evolution-of-the-First-Flowers-Early-Permian-Angiosperms.pdf&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cea755b1c75c2445000b008da4523ea5e%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637898317971662007%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=i2NLNkeSEN76VcFTNunlk0nlsXyluL3UbHWb%2B15GNRY%3D&reserved=0
>>> , in which he establishes a number of new genera and species for what he
>>> insists are new Permian angiosperm flowers, a contention carried through
>>> to
>>> a number of other, similar works.
>>>
>>> Since otherwise, the earliest accepted angiosperm fossils do not appear
>>> until the Cretaceous (refer e.g. Herendeen et al. 2017,
>>>
>>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nature.com%2Farticles%2Fnplants201715&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cea755b1c75c2445000b008da4523ea5e%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637898317971662007%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=DYOXQxVhPBElDS9Sps0LWhwOSU1aDJ%2BeIxUSXi8yW0g%3D&reserved=0),
>>> one is forced to the
>>> conclusion that either Wachtler's fossils are not angiosperms, or not
>>> Permian, or perhaps not either, although they do look like flowers from
>>> his
>>> pictures. Perhaps the dating is wrong - I am no specialist in such
>>> matters;
>>> but in any case there is at least a 150 million year difference between
>>> the
>>> start of the Permian and the start of the Cretaceous periods (with all of
>>> the Triassic and Jurassic between), so something is badly amiss...
>>>
>>> Nevertheless, I am wondering whether Wachtler's published names should
>>> stand, from a nomenclatural point of view, irrespective of the
>>> "challenging" ages ascribed to them, or whether they do not merit
>>> inclusion
>>> in my system on the basis of possibly invalid publication (which does not
>>> seem to be the case) or other considerations. I note of interest, that
>>> Wachtler's publications do seem to be cited by no-one but himself, which
>>> does raise a bit of a red flag...
>>>
>>> Your opinions welcome!
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance - Tony
>>>
>>> Tony Rees, New South Wales, Australia
>>>
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>>>
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>>> Nurturing nuance while assailing ambiguity for about 35 years, 1987-2022.
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Dunedin, New Zealand.
>>
>> My books:
>>
>> *Biogeography and evolution in New Zealand. *Taylor and Francis/CRC,
>> Boca Raton FL. 2017.
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.routledge.com%2FBiogeography-and-Evolution-in-New-Zealand%2FHeads%2Fp%2Fbook%2F9781498751872&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cea755b1c75c2445000b008da4523ea5e%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637898317971662007%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=yog%2ByQ4q0391rFp9kUdIt5w1DRMgG%2BnaZyzW%2B0G66%2Fk%3D&reserved=0
>>
>>
>> *Biogeography of Australasia:  A molecular analysis*. Cambridge
>> University Press, Cambridge. 2014. https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cambridge.org%2F9781107041028&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cea755b1c75c2445000b008da4523ea5e%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637898317971662007%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=4UaqGkKJjUcXp7BJU2Vo2TG51FmbKCMKA6U7GfXznA8%3D&reserved=0
>>
>>
>> *Molecular panbiogeography of the tropics. *University of California
>> Press, Berkeley. 2012. https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ucpress.edu%2Fbook.php%3Fisbn%3D9780520271968&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cea755b1c75c2445000b008da4523ea5e%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637898317971662007%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=nhmJnBb%2B2v6kW1wR%2Fk6mmSDgu1liA3KWOu1ENYvsiRE%3D&reserved=0
>>
>>
>> *Panbiogeography: Tracking the history of life*. Oxford University
>> Press, New York. 1999. (With R. Craw and J. Grehan).
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbooks.google.co.nz%2Fbooks%3Fid%3DBm0_QQ3Z6GUC&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cea755b1c75c2445000b008da4523ea5e%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637898317971662007%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=kcxRE1DUuUbssBQNmLjlhGp9Rfk6K2%2Fagjuw4wgMlWo%3D&reserved=0
>> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbooks.google.co.nz%2Fbooks%3Fid%3DBm0_QQ3Z6GUC%26dq%3Dpanbiogeography%26source%3Dgbs_navlinks_s&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cea755b1c75c2445000b008da4523ea5e%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637898317971662007%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=wt3ildpt5oGTL9UE02J%2BRq%2BwOfJdvvFEJNlZs3OAlKE%3D&reserved=0>
>>
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-- 
Dunedin, New Zealand.

My books:

*Biogeography and evolution in New Zealand. *Taylor and Francis/CRC, Boca
Raton FL. 2017.
https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.routledge.com%2FBiogeography-and-Evolution-in-New-Zealand%2FHeads%2Fp%2Fbook%2F9781498751872&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cea755b1c75c2445000b008da4523ea5e%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637898317971662007%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=yog%2ByQ4q0391rFp9kUdIt5w1DRMgG%2BnaZyzW%2B0G66%2Fk%3D&reserved=0


*Biogeography of Australasia:  A molecular analysis*. Cambridge University
Press, Cambridge. 2014. https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cambridge.org%2F9781107041028&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cea755b1c75c2445000b008da4523ea5e%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637898317971662007%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=4UaqGkKJjUcXp7BJU2Vo2TG51FmbKCMKA6U7GfXznA8%3D&reserved=0


*Molecular panbiogeography of the tropics. *University of California Press,
Berkeley. 2012. https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ucpress.edu%2Fbook.php%3Fisbn%3D9780520271968&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cea755b1c75c2445000b008da4523ea5e%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637898317971662007%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=nhmJnBb%2B2v6kW1wR%2Fk6mmSDgu1liA3KWOu1ENYvsiRE%3D&reserved=0


*Panbiogeography: Tracking the history of life*. Oxford University Press,
New York. 1999. (With R. Craw and J. Grehan).
https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbooks.google.co.nz%2Fbooks%3Fid%3DBm0_QQ3Z6GUC&data=05%7C01%7Ctaxacom%40lists.ku.edu%7Cea755b1c75c2445000b008da4523ea5e%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637898317971662007%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=kcxRE1DUuUbssBQNmLjlhGp9Rfk6K2%2Fagjuw4wgMlWo%3D&reserved=0
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