[Taxacom] [iczn-list] GENERAL CALL TO BATTLE

Wed Feb 10 14:18:03 CST 2021

Thank you, Scott, for capturing my own perspective on this perfectly!  You and I are very much in synch on this!

It’s tempting (and sometimes fun!) to exercise outrage, pound fists on desks and conduct all manner of arm-waving. And that sort of activity does have a legitimate role – mostly in the context of bringing attention to something that might otherwise be ignored.

But in my experience, real progress/action/improvement/problem solving only comes after the sort of rational discourse that Scott outlines in his email below.  It definitely worked for the “Governance of taxonomy” exercise (there has already been one major reconciliation paper to come from that, and at least 6 more are on the way).  What began as an intellectually adversarial debate led directly to real progress – EXACTLY the way that science is supposed to work!

So…  I think the first step in this process is to acknowledge that the people with whom you disagree with (even passionately disagree with) are *probably* not stupid.  (Note: probably, not definitely – a fair bit of genuine “stupid” does permeate our world – even in taxonomy, believe it or not!)  But in this particular discussion, I can say with confidence that arguments on both sides of the issue are coming from a place of understanding and insight, not ignorance.  There is definitely no “right” answer on this one, no matter how passionately proponents of each side believe in their own position.

Everything in life boils down to a cost-benefit analysis, and in cases where both the costs and benefits are large, and the nuances of the issues are very complex (both apply here), it’s not obvious where the optimal cost/benefit strategy lies.

Stepping off soapbox now…

Aloha,

Rich

Richard L. Pyle, PhD
Senior Curator of Ichthyology | Director of XCoRE

Bernice Pauahi Bishop Museum

1525 Bernice Street, Honolulu, HI 96817-2704

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From: iczn-list <iczn-list-bounces at afriherp.org> On Behalf Of Scott Thomson
Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2021 9:53 AM
To: Admin Admin <archilegt at gmail.com>
Cc: Thomas Pape <tpape at snm.ku.dk>; Taxacom <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>; iczn-list at afriherp.org
Subject: Re: [iczn-list] GENERAL CALL TO BATTLE

When Garnett and Christidis published their paper several years ago on taxonomic Governance there was a huge "up in arms" response by many people. A number of authors published quite scathing responses to their paper. Although they raised some valid points their tone and method achieved very little. Here on this list and the ICZN list we developed a different approach. 184 of us got together, including Thomas in this thread but many others too, and wrote a significant response, detailed, addressing the issues, correcting misconceptions etc. But what was also important was the tone of it. I am very grateful to Richard Pyle who helped me lead that paper.

In that paper we were conciliatory, we recognised their points, we valued their views and suggested alternatives, compromises, explanations of why they could or could not do aspects of what they had proposed. We kept it polite, I said to the co-authors at the time it's important to debate politely, present a viable alternative etc.

So what did that get us? It got cooperation, it got conciliation. It took the governance onus off taxonomy as we all wanted and placed it in a more appropriate place. The world is so fast now that somewhere there needed to be some control over the lists of species being used in what we all know is an environmental catastrophe. I do not think I actually remember the last time I saw an insect hit my windscreen. We developed the IUBS Working Group for Global Species Lists, Richard and I are both members as are Garnett and Christidis, we are now all working together. Because we did not attack.

Clearly in the oher discussion I had some issues with the paper under discussion. But I am not going to attack them. Anymore than I attack PhyloCode. I acknowledged at the end of that discussion that it was probably a useful technique particularly for mega diverse groups. To have a constructive conversation and move forwards to a viable solution means healthy and polite debate, compromise, and the building of good workable ideas in good faith. 

I suggest against any attempt to destroy opposing views you need to cooperate and amalgamate them into a single view. That can only be done with careful consideration and cooperation.

Cheers Scott

On Wed, Feb 10, 2021 at 4:18 PM Admin Admin <archilegt at gmail.com <mailto:archilegt at gmail.com> > wrote:

Dear Thomas,

I warned you a long time ago of what could happen, in person, and we discussed your views, in person. I know that your concern is " We are right now facing an alarming rate of destruction of our ecosystems". On the previous ICZN thread that brought the issue up, I also discussed and replied to the points that you raised right now, before you raised them. Maybe you missed that. I will repeat myself now:

1) I do not see that the ZooCode claims exclusivity over binomial names of animals. If molecular authors want to have binomial, pronounceable names, they can have them, just not under the ZooCode and not for the purposes of Zoological Nomenclature.

2) I do not see that there is any legal requirement telling that binomial names under the Code are the only ones to be applied as unique identifiers to operational taxonomic units worth of legal recognition and protection.

3) I do not see that studying ecological interactions among OTUs can only be done by using binomial names under the Code.

4) I do not see a problem with molecular authors anchoring species-rank taxonomic concepts, with specific epithets that are not Code-compliant, to genus-rank concepts which have a Code-compliant name.

In summary, and I am not screaming, WE CAN APPLY BINOMIAL NAMES TO SPECIES FOR "STOPPING THE ALARMING RATE OF DESTRUCTION OF OUR ECOSYSTEMS", JUST NOT UNDER THE CODE.

Cheers,

Carlos

On Wed, Feb 10, 2021 at 9:01 PM Thomas Pape <tpape at snm.ku.dk <mailto:tpape at snm.ku.dk> > wrote:

Dear Carlos,

I appreciate your enthusiasm and energy, but I find your wording excessively and unnecessarily divisive.

We are right now facing an alarming rate of destruction of our ecosystems, with dire consequences in terms of massive losses of species. We should welcome any honest and serious attempt at embracing new technologies to document what may soon be irrecoverably lost.

We probably all agree that species may somehow be delimited or recognized based on molecular data, and I am convinced that we all would be happy to see massive amounts of sequence data obtained from carefully prepared and meticulously documented voucher specimens.

We need an open discussion on how to align the way we name species with the strengths and shortcomings of molecular sequence data.
We need to be explicit and specific in which requirements we want for scientific names to be validly proposed. Can molecular sequence data in some form, but by themselves, be seen as "a description or definition that states in words characters that are purported to differentiate" an animal taxon? If not, what would be the minimal amount of elaboration needed to make sequence data Code-compliant? Or should molecular data not take any part in a Code-compliant "description or definition"?

We may never come to full agreement across the Taxasphere, but sharing our different views and suggestions is in my opinion a fruitful procedure. A battle is not.

/Thomas Pape

-----Original Message-----
From: Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu <mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> > On Behalf Of Carlos Alberto Martínez Muñoz via Taxacom
Sent: 10. februar 2021 17:34
To: Taxa com <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu <mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> >
Subject: [Taxacom] GENERAL CALL TO BATTLE

 ***GENERAL CALL TO BATTLE***
Calling all Zoological Taxonomists to Battle!
Dear friends and colleagues,
We are going to need as much help as possible to fight the attempts of Michael Sharkey, Daniel Janzen, Paul Herbert, and others to override the ZooCode and to overwrite 250+ years of Zoological Taxonomy.
If you are willing to contribute your arguments and expertise to a response paper, please contact me.
Those of you who might not be aware of this serious issue, please check:
1) Meierotto et al. (2019): A revolutionary protocol to describe understudied hyperdiverse taxa and overcome the taxonomic impediment.
Deutsche Entomologische Zeitschrift, 66 (2): 119-145.
https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdoi.org%2F10.3897%2Fdez.66.34683 <https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdoi.org%2F10.3897%2Fdez.66.34683&data=04%7C01%7Ctpape%40snm.ku.dk%7Cee5633a991a7482f6def08d8cde62cfe%7Ca3927f91cda14696af898c9f1ceffa91%7C0%7C0%7C637485735767274676%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=aeCRCezA5QrPbnGXNbetMjKOSnb%2Fjg5GU8yv0Xji9%2Fk%3D&reserved=0> &data=04%7C01%7Ctpape%40snm.ku.dk%7Cee5633a991a7482f6def08d8cde62cfe%7Ca3927f91cda14696af898c9f1ceffa91%7C0%7C0%7C637485735767274676%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=aeCRCezA5QrPbnGXNbetMjKOSnb%2Fjg5GU8yv0Xji9%2Fk%3D&reserved=0
2) Sharkey et al. (2021): Minimalist revision and description of 403 new species in 11 subfamilies of Costa Rican braconid parasitoid wasps, including host records for 219 species. ZooKeys, 1013: 1-665.
https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdoi.org%2F10.3897%2Fzookeys.1013.55600 <https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdoi.org%2F10.3897%2Fzookeys.1013.55600&data=04%7C01%7Ctpape%40snm.ku.dk%7Cee5633a991a7482f6def08d8cde62cfe%7Ca3927f91cda14696af898c9f1ceffa91%7C0%7C0%7C637485735767274676%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=MMqHYguA9UzpeDMnLfl9S%2Bl1GyYi38flhldM4ojPuII%3D&reserved=0> &data=04%7C01%7Ctpape%40snm.ku.dk%7Cee5633a991a7482f6def08d8cde62cfe%7Ca3927f91cda14696af898c9f1ceffa91%7C0%7C0%7C637485735767274676%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=MMqHYguA9UzpeDMnLfl9S%2Bl1GyYi38flhldM4ojPuII%3D&reserved=0
See also a reply to Meierotto et al. (2019):
3) Zamani et al. (2021): The omission of critical data in the pursuit of ‘revolutionary’ methods to accelerate the description of species.
Systematic Entomology, 46: 1-4. https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdoi.org%2F10.1111%2Fsyen.12444 <https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdoi.org%2F10.1111%2Fsyen.12444&data=04%7C01%7Ctpape%40snm.ku.dk%7Cee5633a991a7482f6def08d8cde62cfe%7Ca3927f91cda14696af898c9f1ceffa91%7C0%7C0%7C637485735767274676%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=JHx67qjPWUU7pXGuKWFIonf%2Bf4H1Bpk3ParCOlD4meo%3D&reserved=0> &data=04%7C01%7Ctpape%40snm.ku.dk%7Cee5633a991a7482f6def08d8cde62cfe%7Ca3927f91cda14696af898c9f1ceffa91%7C0%7C0%7C637485735767274676%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=JHx67qjPWUU7pXGuKWFIonf%2Bf4H1Bpk3ParCOlD4meo%3D&reserved=0
We need as much help as possible! Please, share widely and invite others to contribute! Let this be the hour when we draw swords together!

Carlos A. Martínez Muñoz
Zoological Museum, Biodiversity Unit
FI-20014 University of Turku
Finland
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