[Taxacom] fossil potato relative
Richard Zander
Richard.Zander at mobot.org
Mon Jun 18 08:33:31 CDT 2018
Somebody explain to me why splits are minimum dates. I know they are not exact or maximum dates. What about extinct taxa or lineages between the split and the extant taxa? The minimum date is for all species in the lineage, extant or extinct, assuming the method is okay. The actual date of speciation for the extant taxon may be last Thursday.
-------
Richard H. Zander
Missouri Botanical Garden – 4344 Shaw Blvd. – St. Louis – Missouri – 63110 – USA
richard.zander at mobot.org
Web sites: http://www.mobot.org/plantscience/bfna/bfnamenu.htm and http://www.mobot.org/plantscience/resbot/
-----Original Message-----
From: Taxacom [mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu] On Behalf Of John Grehan
Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2018 3:40 PM
To: Rocio Deanna
Cc: taxacom
Subject: Re: [Taxacom] fossil potato relative
More precise MINIMUM dates. Good luck.
John Grehan
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On Sun, Jun 17, 2018 at 4:36 PM, Rocio Deanna <rociodeanna at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Actually, Wilf's fossils (2017) are the best evidence within
> Solanaceae to estimate divergence times up to now. Previous used
> fossils were seeds and pollen, so this is the first fossil fruits
> within the family and, therefore, the only one with much more traits
> to place it in an specific clade. However, it would be probably placed
> in a deeper node of Solanaceae instead Physalis. I'm working on this
> divergence time estimation using molecular clocks and all these
> fossils. It requires much more effort by coding all the characters on
> extant taxa, but I think that including all the available evidence will help estimating more precise dates.
>
> Best,
>
> Rocio
>
> *Dr. Rocío Deanna*
> Instituto Multidisciplinario de Biología Vegetal (IMBIV, CONICET-UNC);
> Facultad de Ciencias Químicas, Universidad Nacional de Córdoba, Argentina.
> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Rocio_Deanna3
>
>
>
> 2018-06-15 1:24 GMT-06:00 Péter Poczai <peter.poczai at gmail.com>:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > The Wilf et al. (2017) 'Physalis' fossil is indeed interesting,
> > however, I'm more than suspicious about it since this is the only
> > (!) fossil
> record,
> > which stands out in Solanaceae pushing the dates back considerably
> > for
> the
> > family. There are 50 other fossil
> > <https://bmcevolbiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2148-13
> > -214
> >
> > records from Solanaceae, which are congruent with molecular studies
> > <https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.3732/ajb.0900346>
> > putting
> the
> > age of the family around 46-54 million years or a bit further.
> > Recently discovered Ipomoea fossils (58-55 MY) from Convolvulaceae
> > by Srivastava
> et
> > al. (2018) <https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29784796> also date
> > the split of the two sister families Convolvulaceae/Solanaceae in
> > Solanales before the Eocene in the Gondwana-derived continents. The
> > Wilf et al. (2017) fossil also contradicts the 36 fossils used to
> > calibrate the entire angiosperm tree by Bell et al. (2010)
> > <https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.3732/ajb.0900346>. If
> > it would be placed to that tree it would push back the age of all
> > angiosperms. To
> me
> > this doesn't look convincing, I think it is assigned to a wrong
> > group and it should be place somewhere deeper in the Solanaceae tree
> > than in Physalis. This record is either something really big, in
> > that case fossil records of the same age will be found at some
> > point, but currently it stands out from all other fossils.
> >
> > Cheers
> > Péter
> >
> > 2018-06-15 6:58 GMT+03:00 John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>:
> >
> > > Hi Ken,
> > >
> > > Some disagreement here. Not surprising. See below.
> > >
> > > “I would not treat ALL molecular divergence estimates as minimums.
> > > At least some clock estimates for the origin of primates
> > > apparently range
> > from
> > > 80-120 million years ago”.
> > >
> > > But the different dates are each minimums. So you have a minimum
> > > of 80
> > to a
> > > minimum of 120.
> > >
> > > “If primates actually originated in the Paleocene (as many primate
> > > paleontologists maintain), then 80-120 million years ago are
> > overestimates,
> > > not underestimated minimums.”
> > >
> > > Only if.
> > >
> > > “Molecular studies overseen by actual paleontologists probably
> > > tend to
> > weed
> > > out inaccurate interpretations and therefore tend to be more accurate.
> > But
> > > some molecular results are probably too often done by researchers
> > > who
> > have
> > > little or no paleontological experience.”
> > >
> > > One can only be as accurate about the fossil as the specialists say.
> And
> > > definitney agree with you that correct assignment of fossils can
> > > be problematic. I had experience of a case of a ‘monkey’ fossil in
> > > the Oligocene that had skull features of an ape. I and a primate
> > > specialist wrote a paper pointing that out, but the editor just
> > > gave it to the
> > authors
> > > of the monkey interpretation and of course they condemned it.
> > >
> > > “ Probably best to regard molecular divergence estimates as just
> > > crude estimates that can be inaccurate in BOTH directions.”
> > >
> > > But as they are all miniums they cannot go in different directions.
> > That’s
> > > the difference with tectonic calibrations which are indeed an
> > approximation
> > > of an actual date.
> > >
> > > “In particular, I would tend to trust the perspective and
> > > extensive experience of researchers like Goswami and Upchurch over
> > > either molecularists or panbiogeographers who couldn't identify
> > > the fossil primates in question if their lives depended on it.”
> > >
> > > The whole point of science publication is the publication of
> > > accurate information by which fossils are assigned. If these
> > > cannot be given as
> > much
> > > authority as the authors then science as a whole is down the drain?
> > >
> > > “Too often it seems that we probably have something like the tail
> trying
> > to
> > > wag the dog. “
> > >
> > > ???
> > >
> > > “Would you like it if Goswami and Upchurch were challenging your
> > > views
> on
> > > moth evolution? “
> > >
> > > Sorry? What planet are you on? That’s the whole point of science,
> > > beginning, middle, and end! At least on the planet I am on (sorry
> > > for
> the
> > > possibly misguided humor, but I am somewhat shocked that you could
> imply
> > > that I would object to being challenged by anyone on any of my work.
> This
> > > is supposed to be science after all).
> > >
> > > Cheers, John Grehan
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 11:35 PM, Kenneth Kinman
> > > <kinman at hotmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > John,
> > > >
> > > > I would not treat ALL molecular divergence estimates as
> minimums.
> > > At
> > > > least some clock estimates for the origin of primates apparently
> range
> > > from
> > > > 80-120 million years ago. If primates actually originated in
> > > > the
> > > Paleocene
> > > > (as many primate paleontologists maintain), then 80-120 million
> > > > years
> > ago
> > > > are overestimates, not underestimated minimums. Molecular
> > > > studies
> > > overseen
> > > > by actual paleontologists probably tend to weed out inaccurate
> > > > interpretations and therefore tend to be more accurate. But
> > > > some
> > > molecular
> > > > results are probably too often done by researchers who have
> > > > little or
> > no
> > > > paleontological experience. Probably best to regard molecular
> > divergence
> > > > estimates as just crude estimates that can be inaccurate in BOTH
> > > > directions.
> > > >
> > > > In particular, I would tend to trust the perspective and
> > extensive
> > > > experience of researchers like Goswami and Upchurch over either
> > > > molecularists or panbiogeographers who couldn't identify the
> > > > fossil primates in question if their lives depended on it. Too
> > > > often it
> seems
> > > > that we probably have something like the tail trying to wag the dog.
> > > Would
> > > > you like it if Goswami and Upchurch were challenging your views
> > > > on
> moth
> > > > evolution?
> > > >
> > > > --------------Ken
> > > > ------------------------------
> > > > *From:* Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> on behalf
> > > > of
> John
> > > > Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
> > > > *Sent:* Thursday, June 14, 2018 8:17 PM
> > > > *To:* Scott Thomson
> > > > *Cc:* taxacom
> > > > *Subject:* Re: [Taxacom] fossil potato relative
> > > >
> > > > Which illustrates well why to treat all molecular divergence
> estimates
> > as
> > > > minimums. That way at least one is not skewing history to fit
> > > > and not
> > so
> > > > critical if fossils are missed (which one would hope that a
> > > > proper
> > effort
> > > > was made in that regard).
> > > >
> > > > John Grehan
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 9:03 PM, Scott Thomson <
> > > scott.thomson321 at gmail.com
> > > > >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I have to say also I find the reliance on molecular dates in
> > > > > recent
> > > times
> > > > > disturbing. I have seen dates for groups of 23 mya, 35 mya,
> > > > > and 52
> > mya
> > > (3
> > > > > separate published papers) on a group that had an actual
> > > > > fossil, a
> > good
> > > > > one, that was well dated to over 100 mya. I also find the
> assumptions
> > > of
> > > > > molecular dates to be rather daring ones and a bit disturbing
> > > > > when
> I
> > > > > realise that in many cases the fossils used to calibrate such
> > > > > tests
> > are
> > > > > obtained by obtaining info from a quick perusal of
> > > > > Fossilworks. I
> > take
> > > > > molecular dates with a grain of salt.
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers Scott
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 8:54 PM, John Grehan <
> calabar.john at gmail.com
> > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Probably just being polite :)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Here is what they said in their article. Note the first
> > > > > > sentence
> in
> > > > > > particular.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Our results reinforce the emerging pattern wherein numerous
> > > > > > fossil plant taxa from Gondwanan Patagonia and Antarctica
> > > > > > are substantially older than their corresponding molecular
> > > > > > dates (26, 27), demonstrating Gondwanan history for groups
> > > > > > conjectured to have post-Gondwanan origins under entirely
> > > > > > different paleogeographic and paleoclimatic scenarios.
> > > > > > Likewise, the derived position of the newly identified
> > > > > > fossil species shows that the origins and diversification of
> > > > > > Solanaceae must have taken place at a much earlier time than
> > > > > > previously thought, considerably before final Gondwanan
> > > > > > breakup. Other regions of Gondwana are also likely to have
> > > > > > played prominent roles in Solanaceae evolution, especially
> > > > > > Antarctica, which has produced other important asterid
> > > > > > fossils (27). Moreover, the newly identified fossils
> > > > > > directly help to resolve temporal inconsistencies between
> > > > > > the evolutionary timing of Solanaceae and its herbivores and
> > > > > > mutualists (28). The large fossil berry strongly implicates
> > > > > > trophic associations with animals, as seen in extant
> > > > > > Physalis (29).
> > > > > > Today, Physalis inhabits South, Central, and North America,
> > > > > > and Mexico is its center of diversity (2). Thus, the fossils
> > > > > > establish a rare link to extant New World floras from
> > > > > > late-Gondwanan Patagonian assemblages, whose living
> > > > > > relatives are mostly concentrated in the Old World tropics
> > > > > > and subtropics."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 8:21 PM, David Campbell <
> > > pleuronaia at gmail.com>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > "The fossils underpin the need for researchers to be careful"
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Why not conclude "the fossils show that the molecular
> > > > > > > clock
> dates
> > > > were
> > > > > > > wrong"? Calibration, calculation, and interpretation of
> > molecular
> > > > > clocks
> > > > > > > all have serious problems - why use them?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 1:52 PM, John Grehan <
> > > calabar.john at gmail.com
> > > > >
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Not making any judgement about this one, but notice
> > > > > > > > comment
> on
> > > > > > molecular
> > > > > > > > clocks at the end.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > John Grehan
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > http://www.iflscience.com/plants-and-animals/
> > > > <http://www.iflscience.com/plants-and-animals/>
> > > > Plants and Animals | IFLScience
> > > > <http://www.iflscience.com/plants-and-animals/>
> > > > www.iflscience.com
> > > > Researchers find that the opah fish, which was the first fish
> > > > found
> to
> > be
> > > > fully warm-blooded, is act...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > 52millionyearold-fossil-
> > > > > > > > relative-to-the-potato-discovered-in-patagonia/
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Despite becoming ubiquitous in almost every corner of
> > > > > > > > the
> > world,
> > > > > > > > surprisingly little is known about the deep evolutionary
> > history
> > > of
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > group of plants that gave rise to potatoes, tomatoes,
> > > > > > > > and
> > > tobacco.
> > > > > > > > Now, researchers
> > > > > > > > have found
> > > > > > > > <http://phys.org/news/2017-01-south-american-fossil-
> > > > > > > > tomatillos-nightshades.html> just how far back these
> > > > > > > > organisms go, with the discovery of
> a
> > > > fossil
> > > > > > > > relative that dates back to 52 million years ago, tens
> > > > > > > > of
> > > millions
> > > > of
> > > > > > > years
> > > > > > > > older than previously thought.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The fossil belongs to a fragile berry of a plant known
> > > > > > > > as a
> > > > > tomatillo,
> > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > ground cherry. They form fruit that is often surrounded
> > > > > > > > by a
> > > thin,
> > > > > > papery
> > > > > > > > lantern, making it difficult for them to be fossilized
> > > > > > > > <http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-38511034>.
> > > Members
> > > > of
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > *Physalis* genus, they form a small branch of the
> > > > > > > > nightshade
> > > > family,
> > > > > > > which
> > > > > > > > in turn includes many commercially important crops, from
> > potatoes
> > > > > > > > and petunias to chillies and aubergines.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The only fossil fruits ever found from this family of
> > > > > > > > almost
> > > 2,000
> > > > > > > species
> > > > > > > > of plants, the two specimens were discovered in a
> > > > > > > > fossilized
> > > > > rainforest
> > > > > > > > that once grew across Patagonia in South America. With a
> > > > > > > > lack
> > of
> > > > > > > available
> > > > > > > > fossils for this group of plants, researchers have had
> > > > > > > > to
> rely
> > on
> > > > > > > molecular
> > > > > > > > dates for when the nightshade plants first evolved, and
> > > > > > > > had
> > > settled
> > > > > on
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > figure of around 35 to 51 million years old, while the
> > tomatillo
> > > > was
> > > > > > > > thought to be a relative newcomer at only 10 million
> > > > > > > > years
> old.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > This new discovery, however, completely changes this.
> > > > > > > > The
> > > fossils,
> > > > > > dating
> > > > > > > > to 52 million years ago, show that the ground cherries
> > > > > > > > are
> > > > actually a
> > > > > > > > relatively ancient branch of the nightshade family. “We
> > > > exhaustively
> > > > > > > > analyzed every detail of these fossils in comparison
> > > > > > > > with all
> > > > > potential
> > > > > > > > living relatives and there is no question that they
> > > > > > > > represent
> > the
> > > > > > world's
> > > > > > > > first physalis fossils and the first fossil fruits of
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > nightshade
> > > > > > > > family,” says
> > > > > > > > <http://phys.org/news/2017-01-south-american-fossil-
> > > > > > > > tomatillos-nightshades.html> Professor Peter Wilf, from
> > > > > > > > Pennsylvania State University.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The fossils underpin the need for researchers to be
> > > > > > > > careful
> > when
> > > > > > deducing
> > > > > > > > an organism's evolutionary age solely from molecular clocks.
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> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
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> > > >
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> > >
> > > Nurturing Nuance while Assaulting Ambiguity for 31 Some Years,
> 1987-2018.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Dr Péter Poczai, PhD
> > Curator, CITES Scientific Authority
> > Botany Unit, Finnish Museum of Natural History PO Box 7 University
> > of Helsinki
> > FI-00014 Helsinki
> > Finland
> > Cell.:+358-41-752-5158
> > https://tuhat.helsinki.fi/portal/en/person/poczai
> >
> > "*Vive memor nostri rigidi servator honesti*"
> > (Live, remember, you are the guardian of our honor)
> > _______________________________________________
> > Taxacom Mailing List
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> >
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> >
> > Nurturing Nuance while Assaulting Ambiguity for 31 Some Years, 1987-2018.
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Taxacom Mailing List
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>
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> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the Web, visit:
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>
> Nurturing Nuance while Assaulting Ambiguity for 31 Some Years, 1987-2018.
>
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