[Taxacom] fossil potato relative

Sun Jun 17 15:40:07 CDT 2018

More precise MINIMUM dates. Good luck.

John Grehan

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On Sun, Jun 17, 2018 at 4:36 PM, Rocio Deanna <rociodeanna at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Actually, Wilf's fossils (2017) are the best evidence within Solanaceae to
> estimate divergence times up to now. Previous used fossils were seeds and
> pollen, so this is the first fossil fruits within the family and,
> therefore, the only one with much more traits to place it in an specific
> clade. However, it would be probably placed in a deeper node of Solanaceae
> instead Physalis. I'm working on this divergence time estimation using
> molecular clocks and all these fossils. It requires much more effort by
> coding all the characters on extant taxa, but I think that including all
> the available evidence will help estimating more precise dates.
>
> Best,
>
> Rocio
>
> *Dr. Rocío Deanna*
> Instituto Multidisciplinario de Biología Vegetal (IMBIV, CONICET-UNC);
> Facultad de Ciencias Químicas, Universidad Nacional de Córdoba, Argentina.
> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Rocio_Deanna3
>
>
>
> 2018-06-15 1:24 GMT-06:00 Péter Poczai <peter.poczai at gmail.com>:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > The Wilf et al. (2017) 'Physalis' fossil is indeed interesting, however,
> > I'm more than suspicious about it since this is the only (!) fossil
> record,
> > which stands out in Solanaceae pushing the dates back considerably for
> the
> > family. There are 50 other fossil
> > <https://bmcevolbiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2148-13-214
> >
> > records from Solanaceae, which are congruent with molecular studies
> > <https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.3732/ajb.0900346> putting
> the
> > age of the family around 46-54 million years or a bit further. Recently
> > discovered Ipomoea fossils (58-55 MY) from Convolvulaceae by Srivastava
> et
> > al. (2018) <https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29784796> also date the
> > split of the two sister families  Convolvulaceae/Solanaceae in Solanales
> > before
> > the Eocene in the Gondwana-derived continents. The Wilf et al. (2017)
> > fossil also contradicts the 36 fossils used to calibrate the entire
> > angiosperm tree by Bell et al. (2010)
> > <https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.3732/ajb.0900346>. If it
> > would
> > be placed to that tree it would push back the age of all angiosperms. To
> me
> > this doesn't look convincing, I think it is assigned to a wrong group and
> > it should be place somewhere deeper in the Solanaceae tree than in
> > Physalis. This record is either something really big, in that case fossil
> > records of the same age will be found at some point, but currently it
> > stands out from all other fossils.
> >
> > Cheers
> > Péter
> >
> > 2018-06-15 6:58 GMT+03:00 John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>:
> >
> > > Hi Ken,
> > >
> > > Some disagreement here. Not surprising. See below.
> > >
> > > “I would not treat ALL molecular divergence estimates as minimums.  At
> > > least some clock estimates for the origin of primates apparently range
> > from
> > > 80-120 million years ago”.
> > >
> > > But the different dates are each minimums. So you have a minimum of 80
> > to a
> > > minimum of 120.
> > >
> > > “If primates actually originated in the Paleocene (as many primate
> > > paleontologists maintain), then 80-120 million years ago are
> > overestimates,
> > > not underestimated minimums.”
> > >
> > > Only if.
> > >
> > > “Molecular studies overseen by actual paleontologists probably tend to
> > weed
> > > out inaccurate interpretations and therefore tend to be more accurate.
> > But
> > > some molecular results are probably too often done by researchers who
> > have
> > > little or no paleontological experience.”
> > >
> > > One can only be as accurate about the fossil as the specialists say.
> And
> > > definitney agree with you that correct assignment of fossils can be
> > > problematic. I had experience of a case of a ‘monkey’ fossil in the
> > > Oligocene that had skull features of an ape. I and a primate specialist
> > > wrote a paper pointing that out, but the editor just gave it to the
> > authors
> > > of the monkey interpretation and of course they condemned it.
> > >
> > > “ Probably best to regard molecular divergence estimates as just crude
> > > estimates that can be inaccurate in BOTH directions.”
> > >
> > > But as they are all miniums they cannot go in different directions.
> > That’s
> > > the difference with tectonic calibrations which are indeed an
> > approximation
> > > of an actual date.
> > >
> > > “In particular, I would tend to trust the perspective and extensive
> > > experience of researchers like Goswami and Upchurch over either
> > > molecularists or panbiogeographers who couldn't identify the fossil
> > > primates in question if their lives depended on it.”
> > >
> > > The whole point of science publication is the publication of accurate
> > > information by which fossils are assigned. If these cannot be given as
> > much
> > > authority as the authors then science as a whole  is down the drain?
> > >
> > > “Too often it seems that we probably have something like the tail
> trying
> > to
> > > wag the dog. “
> > >
> > > ???
> > >
> > > “Would you like it if Goswami and Upchurch were challenging your views
> on
> > > moth evolution? “
> > >
> > > Sorry? What planet are you on? That’s the whole point of science,
> > > beginning, middle, and end! At least on the planet I am on (sorry for
> the
> > > possibly misguided humor, but I am somewhat shocked that you could
> imply
> > > that I would object to being challenged by anyone on any of my work.
> This
> > > is supposed to be science after all).
> > >
> > > Cheers, John Grehan
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 11:35 PM, Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > John,
> > > >
> > > >       I would not treat ALL molecular divergence estimates as
> minimums.
> > > At
> > > > least some clock estimates for the origin of primates apparently
> range
> > > from
> > > > 80-120 million years ago.  If primates actually originated in the
> > > Paleocene
> > > > (as many primate paleontologists maintain), then 80-120 million years
> > ago
> > > > are overestimates, not underestimated minimums.  Molecular studies
> > > overseen
> > > > by actual paleontologists probably tend to weed out inaccurate
> > > > interpretations and therefore tend to be more accurate.  But some
> > > molecular
> > > > results are probably too often done by researchers who have little or
> > no
> > > > paleontological experience.  Probably best to regard molecular
> > divergence
> > > > estimates as just crude estimates that can be inaccurate in BOTH
> > > > directions.
> > > >
> > > >       In particular, I would tend to trust the perspective and
> > extensive
> > > > experience of researchers like Goswami and Upchurch over either
> > > > molecularists or panbiogeographers who couldn't identify the fossil
> > > > primates in question if their lives depended on it.  Too often it
> seems
> > > > that we probably have something like the tail trying to wag the dog.
> > > Would
> > > > you like it if Goswami and Upchurch were challenging your views on
> moth
> > > > evolution?
> > > >
> > > >                                 --------------Ken
> > > > ------------------------------
> > > > *From:* Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> on behalf of
> John
> > > > Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
> > > > *Sent:* Thursday, June 14, 2018 8:17 PM
> > > > *To:* Scott Thomson
> > > > *Cc:* taxacom
> > > > *Subject:* Re: [Taxacom] fossil potato relative
> > > >
> > > > Which illustrates well why to treat all molecular divergence
> estimates
> > as
> > > > minimums. That way at least one is not skewing history to fit and not
> > so
> > > > critical if fossils are missed (which one would hope that a proper
> > effort
> > > > was made in that regard).
> > > >
> > > > John Grehan
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 9:03 PM, Scott Thomson <
> > > scott.thomson321 at gmail.com
> > > > >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I have to say also I find the reliance on molecular dates in recent
> > > times
> > > > > disturbing. I have seen dates for groups of 23 mya, 35 mya, and 52
> > mya
> > > (3
> > > > > separate published papers) on a group that had an actual fossil, a
> > good
> > > > > one, that was well dated to over 100 mya. I also find the
> assumptions
> > > of
> > > > > molecular dates to be rather daring ones and a bit disturbing when
> I
> > > > > realise that in many cases the fossils used to calibrate such tests
> > are
> > > > > obtained by obtaining info from a quick perusal of Fossilworks. I
> > take
> > > > > molecular dates with a grain of salt.
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers Scott
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 8:54 PM, John Grehan <
> calabar.john at gmail.com
> > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Probably just being polite :)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Here is what they said in their article. Note the first sentence
> in
> > > > > > particular.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Our results reinforce the emerging pattern
> > > > > > wherein numerous fossil plant taxa from Gondwanan
> > > > > > Patagonia and Antarctica are substantially
> > > > > > older than their corresponding molecular
> > > > > > dates (26, 27), demonstrating Gondwanan history
> > > > > > for groups conjectured to have post-Gondwanan
> > > > > > origins under entirely different paleogeographic
> > > > > > and paleoclimatic scenarios. Likewise, the derived
> > > > > > position of the newly identified fossil species
> > > > > > shows that the origins and diversification
> > > > > > of Solanaceae must have taken place at a much
> > > > > > earlier time than previously thought, considerably
> > > > > > before final Gondwanan breakup. Other
> > > > > > regions of Gondwana are also likely to have
> > > > > > played prominent roles in Solanaceae evolution,
> > > > > > especially Antarctica, which has produced
> > > > > > other important asterid fossils (27). Moreover,
> > > > > > the newly identified fossils directly help to
> > > > > > resolve temporal inconsistencies between the
> > > > > > evolutionary timing of Solanaceae and its herbivores
> > > > > > and mutualists (28). The large fossil
> > > > > > berry strongly implicates trophic associations
> > > > > > with animals, as seen in extant Physalis (29).
> > > > > > Today, Physalis inhabits South, Central, and
> > > > > > North America, and Mexico is its center of diversity
> > > > > > (2). Thus, the fossils establish a rare link
> > > > > > to extant New World floras from late-Gondwanan
> > > > > > Patagonian assemblages, whose living relatives
> > > > > > are mostly concentrated in the Old World tropics
> > > > > > and subtropics."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 8:21 PM, David Campbell <
> > > pleuronaia at gmail.com>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > "The fossils underpin the need for researchers to be careful"
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Why not conclude "the fossils show that the molecular clock
> dates
> > > > were
> > > > > > > wrong"?  Calibration, calculation, and interpretation of
> > molecular
> > > > > clocks
> > > > > > > all have serious problems - why use them?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 1:52 PM, John Grehan <
> > > calabar.john at gmail.com
> > > > >
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Not making any judgement about this one, but notice comment
> on
> > > > > > molecular
> > > > > > > > clocks at the end.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > John Grehan
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > http://www.iflscience.com/plants-and-animals/
> > > > <http://www.iflscience.com/plants-and-animals/>
> > > > Plants and Animals | IFLScience
> > > > <http://www.iflscience.com/plants-and-animals/>
> > > > www.iflscience.com
> > > > Researchers find that the opah fish, which was the first fish found
> to
> > be
> > > > fully warm-blooded, is act...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > 52millionyearold-fossil-
> > > > > > > > relative-to-the-potato-discovered-in-patagonia/
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Despite becoming ubiquitous in almost every corner of the
> > world,
> > > > > > > > surprisingly little is known about the deep evolutionary
> > history
> > > of
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > group of plants that gave rise to potatoes, tomatoes, and
> > > tobacco.
> > > > > > > > Now, researchers
> > > > > > > > have found
> > > > > > > > <http://phys.org/news/2017-01-south-american-fossil-
> > > > > > > > tomatillos-nightshades.html>
> > > > > > > >  just how far back these organisms go, with the discovery of
> a
> > > > fossil
> > > > > > > > relative that dates back to 52 million years ago, tens of
> > > millions
> > > > of
> > > > > > > years
> > > > > > > > older than previously thought.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The fossil belongs to a fragile berry of a plant known as a
> > > > > tomatillo,
> > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > ground cherry. They form fruit that is often surrounded by a
> > > thin,
> > > > > > papery
> > > > > > > > lantern, making it difficult for them to be fossilized
> > > > > > > > <http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-38511034>.
> > > Members
> > > > of
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > *Physalis* genus, they form a small branch of the nightshade
> > > > family,
> > > > > > > which
> > > > > > > > in turn includes many commercially important crops, from
> > potatoes
> > > > > > > > and petunias to chillies and aubergines.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The only fossil fruits ever found from this family of almost
> > > 2,000
> > > > > > > species
> > > > > > > > of plants, the two specimens were discovered in a fossilized
> > > > > rainforest
> > > > > > > > that once grew across Patagonia in South America. With a lack
> > of
> > > > > > > available
> > > > > > > > fossils for this group of plants, researchers have had to
> rely
> > on
> > > > > > > molecular
> > > > > > > > dates for when the nightshade plants first evolved, and had
> > > settled
> > > > > on
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > figure of around 35 to 51 million years old, while the
> > tomatillo
> > > > was
> > > > > > > > thought to be a relative newcomer at only 10 million years
> old.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > This new discovery, however, completely changes this. The
> > > fossils,
> > > > > > dating
> > > > > > > > to 52 million years ago, show that the ground cherries are
> > > > actually a
> > > > > > > > relatively ancient branch of the nightshade family. “We
> > > > exhaustively
> > > > > > > > analyzed every detail of these fossils in comparison with all
> > > > > potential
> > > > > > > > living relatives and there is no question that they represent
> > the
> > > > > > world's
> > > > > > > > first physalis fossils and the first fossil fruits of the
> > > > nightshade
> > > > > > > > family,” says
> > > > > > > > <http://phys.org/news/2017-01-south-american-fossil-
> > > > > > > > tomatillos-nightshades.html>
> > > > > > > >  Professor Peter Wilf, from Pennsylvania State University.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The fossils underpin the need for researchers to be careful
> > when
> > > > > > deducing
> > > > > > > > an organism's evolutionary age solely from molecular clocks.
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> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
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> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
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> > > >
> > > > >
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> > > Nurturing Nuance while Assaulting Ambiguity for 31 Some Years,
> 1987-2018.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Dr Péter Poczai, PhD
> > Curator, CITES Scientific Authority
> > Botany Unit, Finnish Museum of Natural History
> > PO Box 7 University of Helsinki
> > FI-00014 Helsinki
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> taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
>
> Nurturing Nuance while Assaulting Ambiguity for 31 Some Years, 1987-2018.
>