[Taxacom] Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of Nothofagus species
John Grehan
calabar.john at gmail.com
Sun Jun 3 20:06:07 CDT 2018
Ken,
Sorry I did not word the question sufficiently precise. So - what do you
purport to be the evidence "that the crown group of Nothofagus originated
well after vicariance would have been possible."
John Grehan
On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 9:02 PM, Michael Heads <m.j.heads at gmail.com> wrote:
> the four extant genera (all known from the Cretaceous) *are *the crown
> group.
>
> On Mon, Jun 4, 2018 at 12:19 PM, Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Michael,
> >
> > You're right. I should have said the crown group of Nothofagus
> > originated much later (after the break up of Gondwana). But i'm sure
> John
> > will continue to attack the evidence that the crown group of Nothofagus
> > originated well after vicariance would have been possible.
> >
> > ------------------------------
> > *From:* Michael Heads <m.j.heads at gmail.com>
> > *Sent:* Sunday, June 3, 2018 7:10 PM
> > *To:* Kenneth Kinman
> > *Cc:* John Grehan; taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> >
> > *Subject:* Re: [Taxacom] Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of
> > Nothofagus species
> >
> > Ken
> >
> > You say 'Nothofagus evolved much later (after the break up Gondwana)',
> > but fossils are known back to the Cretaceous (early Campanian). All four
> > extant subgenera have Cretaceous fossils. The actual age of the clades
> may
> > be older than this, of course.
> >
> > On Mon, Jun 4, 2018 at 11:08 AM, Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > John,
> >
> > Well, you tossing out such red herrings will not dissuade me.
> > Including the scientific one about frogs. The two primitive frog
> families
> > originated way back in the Paleozoic when the world map was much
> different
> > (Gondwanaland still largely intact). No long-distance dispersal
> > necessary. Vicariance explains that case quite nicely. Nothofagus
> evolved
> > much later (after the break up Gondwana), so I don't know why you tossed
> > out that red herring. And comparing my hypothesis to UFOs or an Act of
> > God could be interpreted as a bit insulting. And in your second post
> > saying that "Chance dispersal continues to hold a very visceral appeal
> for
> > evolutionary biologists", seems to indicate to me that many
> > panbiogeographers tend to overstate the importance of vicariance and too
> > often either ignore or attack evidence for chance dispersal when it is
> > presented. I suspect that is what will happen if any evidence is found
> to
> > support my hypothesis. One thing is certain---we won't find such
> evidence
> > if we don't look for it.
> >
> > -------------Ken
> >
> > P.S. Your latest comment about "fairy tales" was a bit rude. I don't
> see
> > why the explanation I put forward and question I asked of Bart should be
> > characterized as fairy tales.
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
> > Sent: Sunday, June 3, 2018 9:46 AM
> > To: Kenneth Kinman
> > Cc: Stephen Thorpe; taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of
> > Nothofagus species
> >
> > Ken,
> >
> > Its not a testable notion in any real sense any more than attributing the
> > connection to UFO's. Further, it is not an 'odd' distribution, but one
> that
> > is very even (meaning standard). One can invoke any number of imaginary
> > events to toss plants and animals from one side of the Tasman to the
> other,
> > or even just place them there by an Act of God, but there is no empirical
> > imperative to do so for this any more than imagining a tsunami to toss
> > frogs from Vancouver to New Zealand.
> >
> > John Grehan
> >
> > On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 8:38 AM, Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com
> <mailto:
> > kinman at hotmail.com>> wrote:
> > Hi Stephen,
> >
> > But it could be somewhat scientifically testable if some organisms
> > (mostly likely insects) have the same odd distribution in New Zealand and
> > Tasmania (or adjacent Australia). So I am hoping that some entomologist
> > might know of insects that fit the bill. And if there were more than one
> > such organism, the more likely this dispersal scenario would become.
> >
> > And note that I cited two different Nothofagus species groups with
> > the same odd distribution (one in subgenus Lophozonia and the other in
> > subgenus Fuscospora). And those two dispersals could have happened at
> > different times. So that already increases the probability of dispersal.
> > Anyway, at least Fred understood what I was suggesting:
> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/pipermail/taxacom/2006-December/108388.html
> >
> >
> > -----------------Ken
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz<mailto:
> > stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>>
> > Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2018 8:59 PM
> > To: Kenneth Kinman
> > Cc: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of
> > Nothofagus species
> >
> > "Could certain insects, mosses, or other organisms have hitched a ride on
> > such a Nothofagus raft?"
> >
> > Impossible to rule out just about anything that doesn't constantly
> require
> > running freshwater. If it happened during summer, there could be a
> > desiccating effect, but at other times the amount of freshwater dampness
> > could remain at acceptable levels.
> >
> > The problem though, as I see it, is that these dispersion events are
> > entirely random and unpredictable, so it is hard to base much in the way
> of
> > science on it.
> >
> > Stephen
> >
> > --------------------------------------------
> > On Sun, 3/6/18, Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com<mailto:kin
> > man at hotmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > Subject: [Taxacom] Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of
> > Nothofagus species
> > To: "Kenneth Kinman" <kinman at hotmail.com<mailto:kinman at hotmail.com>>
> > Cc: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>" <
> > taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>>
> > Received: Sunday, 3 June, 2018, 1:51 PM
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > The recent thread got me thinking about a debate that some
> > of us were having on taxacom almost 12 years ago. Namely
> > whether long-distance oceanic dispersal (by rafting) was a
> > significant factor in the geographic distribution of some
> > species of Nothofagus (sensu lato).
> >
> > My hypothesis was that large rafts of dislodged Nothofagus
> > trees (due to tsunami or other massive flooding event) could
> > have held some of their fruit above the ocean surface and
> > rafted from Tasmania to New Zealand, where one or more new
> > species could evolve (due to founder effect). This would
> > be a relatively short rafting event compared to the much
> > longer driftwood oceanic rafting that happened from South
> > America to Tasmania: Barber, 1959, in the journal Nature;
> > "Transport of Driftwood from South America to
> > Tasmania". Is there other evidence that such dispersal
> > of Nothofagus could have happened? Could certain insects,
> > mosses, or other organisms have hitched a ride on such a
> > Nothofagus raft?
> >
> > --------------Ken Kinman
> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/pipermail/taxacom/2006-December/108385.html
> > _______________________________________________
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> >
> > Nurturing Nuance while
> > Assaulting Ambiguity for 31 Some Years, 1987-2018.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> >
> > Nurturing Nuance while Assaulting Ambiguity for 31 Some Years, 1987-2018.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> > Nurturing Nuance while Assaulting Ambiguity for 31 Some Years, 1987-2018.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Dunedin, New Zealand.
> >
> > My books:
> >
> > *Biogeography and evolution in New Zealand. *Taylor and Francis/CRC, Boca
> > Raton FL. 2017. https://www.routledge.com/
> Biogeography-and-Evolution-in-
> > New-Zealand/Heads/p/book/9781498751872
> >
> >
> > *Biogeography of Australasia: A molecular analysis*. Cambridge
> > University Press, Cambridge. 2014. www.cambridge.org/9781107041028
> >
> >
> > *Molecular panbiogeography of the tropics. *University of California
> > Press, Berkeley. 2012. www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520271968
> >
> >
> > *Panbiogeography: Tracking the history of life*. Oxford University Press,
> > New York. 1999. (With R. Craw and J. Grehan). http://books.google.
> > co.nz/books?id=Bm0_QQ3Z6GUC
> > <http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=Bm0_QQ3Z6GUC&dq=
> panbiogeography&source=gbs_navlinks_s>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Dunedin, New Zealand.
>
> My books:
>
> *Biogeography and evolution in New Zealand. *Taylor and Francis/CRC, Boca
> Raton FL. 2017.
> https://www.routledge.com/Biogeography-and-Evolution-in-
> New-Zealand/Heads/p/book/9781498751872
>
>
> *Biogeography of Australasia: A molecular analysis*. Cambridge University
> Press, Cambridge. 2014. www.cambridge.org/9781107041028
>
>
> *Molecular panbiogeography of the tropics. *University of California Press,
> Berkeley. 2012. www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520271968
>
>
> *Panbiogeography: Tracking the history of life*. Oxford University Press,
> New York. 1999. (With R. Craw and J. Grehan).
> http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=Bm0_QQ3Z6GUC
> <http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=Bm0_QQ3Z6GUC&dq=
> panbiogeography&source=gbs_navlinks_s>
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> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the Web, visit:
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>
> Nurturing Nuance while Assaulting Ambiguity for 31 Some Years, 1987-2018.
>
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