[Taxacom] Long distance oceanic dispersal
Stephen Thorpe
stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz
Sun Jun 3 17:32:31 CDT 2018
There are a couple of issues here. Very occasionally, entire chunks of intact ecosystem could be dislodged and dispersed over the ocean (i.e. "floating islands"). This might actually be testable to some extent as one might expect more than one species to disperse simultaneously to the same new location.
Secondly, bear in mind the interplay between chance dispersal and continental drift. The closer two landmasses are to each other, the higher likelihood of successful chance dispersal.
Stephen
--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 4/6/18, Les Watling <watling at hawaii.edu> wrote:
Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Long distance oceanic dispersal
To: "Cc: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
Received: Monday, 4 June, 2018, 6:22 AM
I would suggest that it is one thing for
marine species to raft across the
ocean, and for shallow or beach wrack
species that might be reasonably
possible, but for terrestrial species
to make it.... well that is another
thing unless there is positive evidence
for salt water tolerance, as in the
case of coconuts.
Having spent some time in storms in the
southern ocean, I would think there
is no way, even for 20,000 instances of
drift initiated by a tsunami, that
a plant or animal with low tolerance to
salt water could make it in
sufficient form to colonize some other
shore. Usually these storms at the
southern end of the earth produce
swells and spilling waves of 5-20 m
height, depending on location, so
anything in the water is going to get
tumbled. Put a fruit of Nothofagus in
sea water for a couple of months and
then let us know whether it will
germinate. Same with mites, mosses, and
the like.
For Nothofagus, I suspect this is the
least likeliest explanation for their
distribution. Drifting land masses
keeps things out of the salt!
Best,
Les Watling
Professor, Dept. of Biology
216 Edmondson Hall
University of Hawaii at Manoa
Honolulu, HI 96822
Ph. 808-956-8621
Cell: 808-772-9563
e-mail: watling at hawaii.edu
On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 1:00 PM, <taxacom-request at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
wrote:
> Daily News from the Taxacom
Mailing List
>
> When responding to a message,
please do not copy the entire digest into
> your reply.
>
____________________________________
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Please ignore test
POST (bayshark at exemail.com.au)
> 2. Long-distance
oceanic dispersal (rafting) of Nothofagus
> species
(Kenneth Kinman)
> 3. Re: Long-distance
oceanic dispersal (rafting) of Nothofagus
> species
(Stephen Thorpe)
> 4. Workplace gender
quotas in science and elsewhere (Stephen Thorpe)
> 5. Re: Long-distance
oceanic dispersal (rafting) of Nothofagus
> species
(Michael Heads)
> 6. Re: Long-distance
oceanic dispersal (rafting) of Nothofagus
> species
(Kenneth Kinman)
> 7. Re: Long-distance
oceanic dispersal (rafting) of Nothofagus
> species (John
Grehan)
> 8. Re: Long-distance
oceanic dispersal (rafting) of Nothofagus
> species
(Barry OConnor)
> 9. Re: Long-distance
oceanic dispersal (rafting) of Nothofagus
> species (John
Grehan)
>
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2018 09:18:47
+1000
> From: <bayshark at exemail.com.au>
> To: "'taxacom'" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Subject: [Taxacom] Please ignore
test POST
> Message-ID: <9D276EBC40DE4F4FBEC791FE607A04AC at RicardoPC>
> Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="us-ascii"
>
> Because I am receiving recently my
post twice in a few days
>
> Vratislav
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2018 01:51:08
+0000
> From: Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com>
> To: Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com>
> Cc: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
<taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Subject: [Taxacom] Long-distance
oceanic dispersal (rafting) of
>
Nothofagus species
> Message-ID:
> <CY4PR11MB14801083F5BA1FC595E60745C1610 at CY4PR11MB1480.
> namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Hi all,
> The recent
thread got me thinking about a debate that some of us
> were having on taxacom almost 12
years ago. Namely whether long-distance
> oceanic dispersal (by rafting) was
a significant factor in the geographic
> distribution of some species of
Nothofagus (sensu lato).
> My
hypothesis was that large rafts of dislodged Nothofagus
trees
> (due to tsunami or other massive
flooding event) could have held some of
> their fruit above the ocean
surface and rafted from Tasmania to New
> Zealand, where one or more
new species could evolve (due to founder
> effect). This would be a
relatively short rafting event compared to the
> much longer driftwood oceanic
rafting that happened from South America to
> Tasmania: Barber, 1959, in the
journal Nature; "Transport of Driftwood from
> South America to Tasmania". Is
there other evidence that such dispersal of
> Nothofagus could have happened?
Could certain insects, mosses, or other
> organisms have hitched a ride on
such a Nothofagus raft?
>
--------------Ken Kinman
> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/pipermail/taxacom/2006-December/108385.html
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2018 01:59:31
+0000 (UTC)
> From: Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
> To: Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com>
> Cc: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
<taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom]
Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of
>
Nothofagus species
> Message-ID: <967563807.8135822.1527991171054 at mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=UTF-8
>
> "Could certain insects, mosses, or
other organisms have hitched a ride on
> such a Nothofagus raft?"
>
> Impossible to rule out just about
anything that doesn't constantly require
> running freshwater. If it happened
during summer, there could be a
> desiccating effect, but at other
times the amount of freshwater dampness
> could remain at acceptable
levels.
>
> The problem though, as I see it,
is that these dispersion events are
> entirely random and unpredictable,
so it is hard to base much in the way of
> science on it.
>
> Stephen
>
>
--------------------------------------------
> On Sun, 3/6/18, Kenneth Kinman
<kinman at hotmail.com>
wrote:
>
> Subject: [Taxacom]
Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of
> Nothofagus species
> To: "Kenneth Kinman" <kinman at hotmail.com>
> Cc: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
<taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Received: Sunday, 3 June,
2018, 1:51 PM
>
> Hi all,
>
> The recent thread got me
thinking about a debate that some
> of us were having on taxacom
almost 12 years ago. Namely
> whether long-distance
oceanic dispersal (by rafting) was a
> significant factor in the
geographic distribution of some
> species of Nothofagus (sensu
lato).
>
> My hypothesis was that
large rafts of dislodged Nothofagus
> trees (due to tsunami or
other massive flooding event) could
> have held some of their
fruit above the ocean surface and
> rafted from Tasmania to New
Zealand, where one or more new
> species could evolve (due to
founder effect). This would
> be a relatively short
rafting event compared to the much
> longer driftwood oceanic
rafting that happened from South
> America to Tasmania: Barber,
1959, in the journal Nature;
> "Transport of Driftwood from
South America to
> Tasmania". Is there other
evidence that such dispersal
> of Nothofagus could have
happened? Could certain insects,
> mosses, or other organisms
have hitched a ride on such a
> Nothofagus raft?
>
>
--------------Ken Kinman
> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/pipermail/taxacom/2006-December/108385.html
>
_______________________________________________
> Taxacom Mailing List
> Send
> Taxacom mailing list
submissions to: Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
>
> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> The Taxacom Archive back to
1992 may be
> searched at: http://taxacom.markmail.org
> To subscribe or unsubscribe
via the Web, visit:
> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> You can reach the person
managing the list at:
> taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
>
> Nurturing Nuance while
> Assaulting Ambiguity for 31
Some Years, 1987-2018.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2018 02:22:47
+0000 (UTC)
> From: Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
> To: <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Subject: [Taxacom] Workplace
gender quotas in science and elsewhere
> Message-ID: <1779694158.8141044.1527992567102 at mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=UTF-8
>
> This subject is perhaps a bit
off-topic for Taxacom, but workplace gender
> quotas may be applied to taxonomic
jobs as much as any other, so I thought
> it might be worth highlighting a
most ridiculous spin being put on research
> to defend workplace gender quotas
against the objection they are
> unmeritocratic (=candidates of
high merit may miss out just because they
> are yet another male).
>
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/workplace-
>
gender-quotas-incompetence-efficiency-business-
>
organisations-london-school-economics-lse-a7797061.html
>
> The argument seems to be that far
from being unmeritocratic, workplace
> gender quotas actually weed out
men of mediocre/low merit (competence), so
> it is all good!
>
> Quite apart from the fact that
"Those with higher incomes were deemed more
> competent", which is itself
laughable for fairly obvious (I hope!) reasons,
> the real killer in this argument
is this, I suggest:
>
> With a quota in place, what are
you going to do? (A) Replace the most
> competent men with women; or (B)
Replace the least competent men with
> women? It is a bit of a no-brainer
(to say the least!) to opt for (B), so
> of course workplace gender quotas
weed out men of mediocre/low competence!
>
> Given that "Those with higher
incomes were deemed more competent" and
> higher income=more senior role,
all that is happening is that women are
> being selected for the less senior
roles in order to keep the more senior
> roles male dominated!
>
> Although this doesn't paint a good
picture of workplace sexism, my main
> point is that the study actually
does nothing to counter the objection that
> workplace gender quotas are
unmeritocratic, even though that is how it is
> being spun! Sure, if you define
competence in terms of income and somehow
> link it to the concept of "merit",
men of lower competence ("merit") are
> being "weeded out", but this does
nothing to counter the objection that men
> who would otherwise be hired on
merit miss out simply due to the fact that
> they are men, and I would call
that gender discrimination against men!
> Worse, it is quite consistent with
a less competent woman being hired
> instead of a more competent man,
however you define competency, if the male
> quota is already filled.
>
> I am quite alarmed by the
subversive and misleading nature of some
> so-called "research" in this
area!
>
> Stephen
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2018 17:20:34
+1200
> From: Michael Heads <m.j.heads at gmail.com>
> To: Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com>
> Cc: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
<taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom]
Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of
>
Nothofagus species
> Message-ID:
>
<CAF_uauDCQL0mfbHP0Mw39ep4N27V2dZMRecMBrifWvYvDGza+Q at mail.gmail.
> com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="UTF-8"
>
> even one-in-a-thousand-years
tsunamis would have occurred 20 000 times in
> the Neogene alone, so you then
have to explain why dispersal occurred only
> once. And why the same pattern has
occurred in many other groups. Of
> course, that isn't a problem with
chance dispersal, which can explain any
> distribution at all.
>
> On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 1:51 PM,
Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com>
wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> > The
recent thread got me thinking about a debate that some of
us
> > were having on taxacom almost
12 years ago. Namely whether long-distance
> > oceanic dispersal (by
rafting) was a significant factor in the geographic
> > distribution of some species
of Nothofagus (sensu lato).
> > My
hypothesis was that large rafts of dislodged Nothofagus
trees
> > (due to tsunami or other
massive flooding event) could have held some of
> > their fruit above the ocean
surface and rafted from Tasmania to New
> > Zealand, where one or
more new species could evolve (due to founder
> > effect). This would be
a relatively short rafting event compared to the
> > much longer driftwood oceanic
rafting that happened from South America to
> > Tasmania: Barber, 1959, in
the journal Nature; "Transport of Driftwood
> from
> > South America to Tasmania".
Is there other evidence that such dispersal
> of
> > Nothofagus could have
happened? Could certain insects, mosses, or other
> > organisms have hitched a ride
on such a Nothofagus raft?
> >
--------------Ken
Kinman
> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/pipermail/taxacom/2006-December/108385.html
> >
_______________________________________________
> > Taxacom Mailing List
> > Send Taxacom mailing list
submissions to: Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> >
> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > The Taxacom Archive back to
1992 may be searched at:
> > http://taxacom.markmail.org
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe
via the Web, visit:
> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > You can reach the person
managing the list at:
> > taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> >
> > Nurturing Nuance while
Assaulting Ambiguity for 31 Some Years, 1987-2018.
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Dunedin, New Zealand.
>
> My books:
>
> *Biogeography and evolution in New
Zealand. *Taylor and Francis/CRC, Boca
> Raton FL. 2017.
> https://www.routledge.com/Biogeography-and-Evolution-in-
>
New-Zealand/Heads/p/book/9781498751872
>
>
> *Biogeography of
Australasia: A molecular analysis*. Cambridge
University
> Press, Cambridge. 2014.
www.cambridge.org/9781107041028
>
>
> *Molecular panbiogeography of the
tropics. *University of California Press,
> Berkeley. 2012.
www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520271968
>
>
> *Panbiogeography: Tracking the
history of life*. Oxford University Press,
> New York. 1999. (With R. Craw and
J. Grehan).
> http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=Bm0_QQ3Z6GUC
> <http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=Bm0_QQ3Z6GUC&dq=
>
panbiogeography&source=gbs_navlinks_s>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2018 12:38:12
+0000
> From: Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com>
> To: Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
> Cc: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
<taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom]
Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of
>
Nothofagus species
> Message-ID:
> <CY4PR11MB1480E18ABE5835F633E440D6C1600 at CY4PR11MB1480.
> namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Hi Stephen,
>
> But it could
be somewhat scientifically testable if some organisms
> (mostly likely insects) have the
same odd distribution in New Zealand and
> Tasmania (or adjacent
Australia). So I am hoping that some entomologist
> might know of insects that fit the
bill. And if there were more than one
> such organism, the more likely
this dispersal scenario would become.
>
> And
note that I cited two different Nothofagus species groups
with
> the same odd distribution (one in
subgenus Lophozonia and the other in
> subgenus Fuscospora). And
those two dispersals could have happened at
> different times. So that
already increases the probability of dispersal.
> Anyway, at least Fred understood
what I was suggesting:
> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/pipermail/taxacom/2006-December/108388.html
>
>
> -----------------Ken
>
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
> Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2018 8:59
PM
> To: Kenneth Kinman
> Cc: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom]
Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of
> Nothofagus species
>
> "Could certain insects, mosses, or
other organisms have hitched a ride on
> such a Nothofagus raft?"
>
> Impossible to rule out just about
anything that doesn't constantly require
> running freshwater. If it happened
during summer, there could be a
> desiccating effect, but at other
times the amount of freshwater dampness
> could remain at acceptable
levels.
>
> The problem though, as I see it,
is that these dispersion events are
> entirely random and unpredictable,
so it is hard to base much in the way of
> science on it.
>
> Stephen
>
>
--------------------------------------------
> On Sun, 3/6/18, Kenneth Kinman
<kinman at hotmail.com>
wrote:
>
> Subject: [Taxacom]
Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of
> Nothofagus
species
> To: "Kenneth Kinman" <kinman at hotmail.com>
> Cc: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
<taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Received: Sunday, 3 June,
2018, 1:51 PM
>
> Hi all,
>
> The recent thread got me
thinking about a debate that some
> of us were having on taxacom
almost 12 years ago. Namely
> whether long-distance
oceanic dispersal (by rafting) was a
> significant factor in the
geographic distribution of some
> species of Nothofagus (sensu
lato).
>
> My hypothesis was that
large rafts of dislodged Nothofagus
> trees (due to tsunami or
other massive flooding event) could
> have held some of their
fruit above the ocean surface and
> rafted from Tasmania to New
Zealand, where one or more new
> species could evolve (due to
founder effect). This would
> be a relatively short
rafting event compared to the much
> longer driftwood oceanic
rafting that happened from South
> America to Tasmania: Barber,
1959, in the journal Nature;
> "Transport of Driftwood from
South America to
> Tasmania". Is there other
evidence that such dispersal
> of Nothofagus could have
happened? Could certain insects,
> mosses, or other organisms
have hitched a ride on such a
> Nothofagus raft?
>
>
--------------Ken Kinman
> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/pipermail/taxacom/2006-December/108385.html
>
_______________________________________________
> Taxacom Mailing List
> Send
> Taxacom mailing list
submissions to: Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
>
> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> The Taxacom Archive back to
1992 may be
> searched at: http://taxacom.markmail.org
> To subscribe or unsubscribe
via the Web, visit:
> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> You can reach the person
managing the list at:
> taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
>
> Nurturing Nuance while
> Assaulting Ambiguity for 31
Some Years, 1987-2018.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2018 10:46:22
-0400
> From: John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
> To: Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com>
> Cc: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
<taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom]
Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of
>
Nothofagus species
> Message-ID:
>
<CADN0ud3yeaD2==LcQApvDpFNQqZ7vJUfq05D9u-rKNjpwVvwhg at mail.
> gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="UTF-8"
>
> Ken,
>
> Its not a testable notion in any
real sense any more than attributing the
> connection to UFO's. Further, it
is not an 'odd' distribution, but one that
> is very even (meaning standard).
One can invoke any number of imaginary
> events to toss plants and animals
from one side of the Tasman to the other,
> or even just place them there by
an Act of God, but there is no empirical
> imperative to do so for this any
more than imagining a tsunami to toss
> frogs from Vancouver to New
Zealand.
>
> John Grehan
>
> On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 8:38 AM,
Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com>
wrote:
>
> > Hi Stephen,
> >
> > But it
could be somewhat scientifically testable if some organisms
> > (mostly likely insects) have
the same odd distribution in New Zealand and
> > Tasmania (or adjacent
Australia). So I am hoping that some entomologist
> > might know of insects that
fit the bill. And if there were more than one
> > such organism, the more
likely this dispersal scenario would become.
> >
> >
And note that I cited two different Nothofagus species
groups with
> > the same odd distribution
(one in subgenus Lophozonia and the other in
> > subgenus Fuscospora).
And those two dispersals could have happened at
> > different times. So
that already increases the probability of dispersal.
> > Anyway, at least Fred
understood what I was suggesting:
> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/pipermail/taxacom/2006-December/108388.html
> >
> >
> > -----------------Ken
> >
> >
________________________________
> > From: Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
> > Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2018
8:59 PM
> > To: Kenneth Kinman
> > Cc: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > Subject: Re: [Taxacom]
Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of
> > Nothofagus species
> >
> > "Could certain insects,
mosses, or other organisms have hitched a ride on
> > such a Nothofagus raft?"
> >
> > Impossible to rule out just
about anything that doesn't constantly
> require
> > running freshwater. If it
happened during summer, there could be a
> > desiccating effect, but at
other times the amount of freshwater dampness
> > could remain at acceptable
levels.
> >
> > The problem though, as I see
it, is that these dispersion events are
> > entirely random and
unpredictable, so it is hard to base much in the way
> of
> > science on it.
> >
> > Stephen
> >
> >
--------------------------------------------
> > On Sun, 3/6/18, Kenneth
Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com>
wrote:
> >
> > Subject: [Taxacom]
Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of
> > Nothofagus
species
> > To: "Kenneth Kinman"
<kinman at hotmail.com>
> > Cc: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
<taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> > Received: Sunday, 3
June, 2018, 1:51 PM
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > The recent thread got
me thinking about a debate that some
> > of us were having on
taxacom almost 12 years ago. Namely
> > whether long-distance
oceanic dispersal (by rafting) was a
> > significant factor in
the geographic distribution of some
> > species of Nothofagus
(sensu lato).
> >
> > My hypothesis was that
large rafts of dislodged Nothofagus
> > trees (due to tsunami
or other massive flooding event) could
> > have held some of their
fruit above the ocean surface and
> > rafted from Tasmania to
New Zealand, where one or more new
> > species could evolve
(due to founder effect). This would
> > be a relatively short
rafting event compared to the much
> > longer driftwood
oceanic rafting that happened from South
> > America to Tasmania:
Barber, 1959, in the journal Nature;
> > "Transport of Driftwood
from South America to
> > Tasmania". Is there
other evidence that such dispersal
> > of Nothofagus could
have happened? Could certain insects,
> > mosses, or other
organisms have hitched a ride on such a
> > Nothofagus raft?
> >
> >
--------------Ken
Kinman
> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/pipermail/taxacom/2006-December/108385.html
> >
_______________________________________________
> > Taxacom Mailing List
> > Send
> > Taxacom mailing list
submissions to: Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> >
> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > The Taxacom Archive
back to 1992 may be
> > searched at: http://taxacom.markmail.org
> > To subscribe or
unsubscribe via the Web, visit:
> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > You can reach the
person managing the list at:
> > taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> >
> > Nurturing Nuance while
> > Assaulting Ambiguity
for 31 Some Years, 1987-2018.
> >
> >
_______________________________________________
> > Taxacom Mailing List
> > Send Taxacom mailing list
submissions to: Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> >
> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > The Taxacom Archive back to
1992 may be searched at:
> > http://taxacom.markmail.org
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe
via the Web, visit:
> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > You can reach the person
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> > taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> >
> > Nurturing Nuance while
Assaulting Ambiguity for 31 Some Years, 1987-2018.
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2018 11:02:15
-0400
> From: Barry OConnor <bmoc at umich.edu>
> To: John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
> Cc: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
<taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom]
Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of
>
Nothofagus species
> Message-ID:
>
<CAC+ZtPdcUBJAkPUV70J0gz3aHzDo91=KxSWs1PmZQEzRzHWVdg at mail.gmail.
> com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="UTF-8"
>
> A mite originally described from
beach wrack in the Russian far east turned
> up in beach wrack on the Oregon
coast after the big Japanese
> earthquake/tsunami. Could have
always been there, just never discovered
> until later. Given all the Asian
stuff found on beaches in the Pacific
> northwest after the tsunami,
either way it's a possibility that its
> distribution was affected by
tsunamis at some point. As John points out,
> however, neither scenario is
testable without historical data, which is
> absent.
> All the best! - Barry
>
> On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 10:46 AM,
John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Ken,
> >
> > Its not a testable notion in
any real sense any more than attributing the
> > connection to UFO's. Further,
it is not an 'odd' distribution, but one
> that
> > is very even (meaning
standard). One can invoke any number of imaginary
> > events to toss plants and
animals from one side of the Tasman to the
> other,
> > or even just place them there
by an Act of God, but there is no empirical
> > imperative to do so for this
any more than imagining a tsunami to toss
> > frogs from Vancouver to New
Zealand.
> >
> > John Grehan
> >
> > On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 8:38
AM, Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Stephen,
> > >
> > > But
it could be somewhat scientifically testable if some
> organisms
> > > (mostly likely insects)
have the same odd distribution in New Zealand
> and
> > > Tasmania (or adjacent
Australia). So I am hoping that some
> entomologist
> > > might know of insects
that fit the bill. And if there were more than
> one
> > > such organism, the more
likely this dispersal scenario would become.
> > >
> > >
And note that I cited two different Nothofagus
species groups
> with
> > > the same odd
distribution (one in subgenus Lophozonia and the other in
> > > subgenus
Fuscospora). And those two dispersals could have
happened at
> > > different times.
So that already increases the probability of
> dispersal.
> > > Anyway, at least Fred
understood what I was suggesting:
> > > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/pipermail/taxacom/2006-December/108388.html
> > >
> > >
> > > -----------------Ken
> > >
> > >
________________________________
> > > From: Stephen Thorpe
<stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
> > > Sent: Saturday, June 2,
2018 8:59 PM
> > > To: Kenneth Kinman
> > > Cc: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > > Subject: Re: [Taxacom]
Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of
> > > Nothofagus species
> > >
> > > "Could certain insects,
mosses, or other organisms have hitched a ride
> on
> > > such a Nothofagus
raft?"
> > >
> > > Impossible to rule out
just about anything that doesn't constantly
> > require
> > > running freshwater. If
it happened during summer, there could be a
> > > desiccating effect, but
at other times the amount of freshwater
> dampness
> > > could remain at
acceptable levels.
> > >
> > > The problem though, as I
see it, is that these dispersion events are
> > > entirely random and
unpredictable, so it is hard to base much in the
> way
> > of
> > > science on it.
> > >
> > > Stephen
> > >
> > >
--------------------------------------------
> > > On Sun, 3/6/18, Kenneth
Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com>
wrote:
> > >
> > > Subject: [Taxacom]
Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of
> > > Nothofagus
species
> > > To: "Kenneth
Kinman" <kinman at hotmail.com>
> > > Cc: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
<taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> > > Received: Sunday,
3 June, 2018, 1:51 PM
> > >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > The recent thread
got me thinking about a debate that some
> > > of us were having
on taxacom almost 12 years ago. Namely
> > > whether
long-distance oceanic dispersal (by rafting) was a
> > > significant factor
in the geographic distribution of some
> > > species of
Nothofagus (sensu lato).
> > >
> > > My hypothesis was
that large rafts of dislodged Nothofagus
> > > trees (due to
tsunami or other massive flooding event) could
> > > have held some of
their fruit above the ocean surface and
> > > rafted from
Tasmania to New Zealand, where one or more new
> > > species could
evolve (due to founder effect). This would
> > > be a relatively
short rafting event compared to the much
> > > longer driftwood
oceanic rafting that happened from South
> > > America to
Tasmania: Barber, 1959, in the journal Nature;
> > > "Transport of
Driftwood from South America to
> > > Tasmania". Is
there other evidence that such dispersal
> > > of Nothofagus
could have happened? Could certain insects,
> > > mosses, or other
organisms have hitched a ride on such a
> > > Nothofagus raft?
> > >
> > >
--------------Ken
Kinman
> > > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/pipermail/taxacom/2006-December/108385.html
> > >
_______________________________________________
> > > Taxacom Mailing
List
> > > Send
> > > Taxacom mailing
list submissions to: Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > >
> > > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > > The Taxacom
Archive back to 1992 may be
> > > searched at: http://taxacom.markmail.org
> > > To subscribe or
unsubscribe via the Web, visit:
> > > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > > You can reach the
person managing the list at:
> > > taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > >
> > > Nurturing Nuance
while
> > > Assaulting
Ambiguity for 31 Some Years, 1987-2018.
> > >
> > >
_______________________________________________
> > > Taxacom Mailing List
> > > Send Taxacom mailing
list submissions to: Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > >
> > > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > > The Taxacom Archive back
to 1992 may be searched at:
> > > http://taxacom.markmail.org
> > > To subscribe or
unsubscribe via the Web, visit:
> > > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > > You can reach the person
managing the list at:
> > > taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > >
> > > Nurturing Nuance while
Assaulting Ambiguity for 31 Some Years,
> 1987-2018.
> > >
> >
_______________________________________________
> > Taxacom Mailing List
> > Send Taxacom mailing list
submissions to: Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> >
> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > The Taxacom Archive back to
1992 may be searched at:
> > http://taxacom.markmail.org
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe
via the Web, visit:
> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > You can reach the person
managing the list at:
> > taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> >
> > Nurturing Nuance while
Assaulting Ambiguity for 31 Some Years, 1987-2018.
> >
>
>
>
> --
> -So many mites, so little time!
> Barry M. OConnor
> Professor & Curator
> Department of Ecology &
Evolutionary Biology
> Research Museums Center
> University of Michigan
phone: 734-763-4354
> 3600 Varsity Drive
fax: 734-763-4080
> Ann Arbor, MI 48108-2228
e-mail: bmoc at umich.edu
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2018 11:17:29
-0400
> From: John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
> To: Barry OConnor <bmoc at umich.edu>
> Cc: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
<taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom]
Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of
>
Nothofagus species
> Message-ID:
>
<CADN0ud30i3CatTHDK5s4K1qS=VMZuyEg=iWST2NPO-4jCzdD0Q@
> mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="UTF-8"
>
> There is not doubt that some
organism drift around, either frequently or
> infrequently. But its a big leap
to just say this is how endemic taxa arise
> in different locations. Bit like
when Darwin found that snails (or seeds, I
> forget which) could survive for
considerable time in seawater and therefore
> they did and this was sufficient
to explain disjunctive origins. Chance
> dispersal has been widely promoted
under molecular clock theory but its a
> chimera resulting from the
misrepresentation of molecular dating. Chance
> dispersal continues to hold a very
visceral appeal for evolutionary
> biologists and perhaps this is not
so surprising as we see plants (or their
> propagules) and animals drifting
about every day. But its the kind of
> reasoning that gives a bad name to
the science of evolution.
>
> John Grehan
>
> On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 11:02 AM,
Barry OConnor <bmoc at umich.edu>
wrote:
>
> > A mite originally described
from beach wrack in the Russian far east
> > turned up in beach wrack on
the Oregon coast after the big Japanese
> > earthquake/tsunami. Could
have always been there, just never discovered
> > until later. Given all the
Asian stuff found on beaches in the Pacific
> > northwest after the tsunami,
either way it's a possibility that its
> > distribution was affected by
tsunamis at some point. As John points out,
> > however, neither scenario is
testable without historical data, which is
> > absent.
> > All the best! - Barry
> >
> > On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 10:46
AM, John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Ken,
> >>
> >> Its not a testable notion
in any real sense any more than attributing
> the
> >> connection to UFO's.
Further, it is not an 'odd' distribution, but one
> >> that
> >> is very even (meaning
standard). One can invoke any number of imaginary
> >> events to toss plants and
animals from one side of the Tasman to the
> >> other,
> >> or even just place them
there by an Act of God, but there is no
> empirical
> >> imperative to do so for
this any more than imagining a tsunami to toss
> >> frogs from Vancouver to
New Zealand.
> >>
> >> John Grehan
> >>
> >> On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at
8:38 AM, Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Hi Stephen,
> >> >
> >> >
But it could be somewhat scientifically testable if some
> organisms
> >> > (mostly likely
insects) have the same odd distribution in New Zealand
> >> and
> >> > Tasmania (or
adjacent Australia). So I am hoping that some
> entomologist
> >> > might know of
insects that fit the bill. And if there were more
than
> >> one
> >> > such organism, the
more likely this dispersal scenario would become.
> >> >
> >> >
And note that I cited two different Nothofagus
species groups
> >> with
> >> > the same odd
distribution (one in subgenus Lophozonia and the other in
> >> > subgenus
Fuscospora). And those two dispersals could have
happened at
> >> > different
times. So that already increases the probability of
> >> dispersal.
> >> > Anyway, at least
Fred understood what I was suggesting:
> >> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/pipermail/taxacom/2006-December/108388.html
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
-----------------Ken
> >> >
> >> >
________________________________
> >> > From: Stephen Thorpe
<stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
> >> > Sent: Saturday, June
2, 2018 8:59 PM
> >> > To: Kenneth Kinman
> >> > Cc: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> >> > Subject: Re:
[Taxacom] Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of
> >> > Nothofagus species
> >> >
> >> > "Could certain
insects, mosses, or other organisms have hitched a ride
> >> on
> >> > such a Nothofagus
raft?"
> >> >
> >> > Impossible to rule
out just about anything that doesn't constantly
> >> require
> >> > running freshwater.
If it happened during summer, there could be a
> >> > desiccating effect,
but at other times the amount of freshwater
> dampness
> >> > could remain at
acceptable levels.
> >> >
> >> > The problem though,
as I see it, is that these dispersion events are
> >> > entirely random and
unpredictable, so it is hard to base much in the
> >> way of
> >> > science on it.
> >> >
> >> > Stephen
> >> >
> >> >
--------------------------------------------
> >> > On Sun, 3/6/18,
Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com>
wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Subject:
[Taxacom] Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of
> >> > Nothofagus
species
> >> > To: "Kenneth
Kinman" <kinman at hotmail.com>
> >> > Cc: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
<taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> >> > Received:
Sunday, 3 June, 2018, 1:51 PM
> >> >
> >> > Hi all,
> >> >
> >> > The recent
thread got me thinking about a debate that some
> >> > of us were
having on taxacom almost 12 years ago. Namely
> >> > whether
long-distance oceanic dispersal (by rafting) was a
> >> > significant
factor in the geographic distribution of some
> >> > species of
Nothofagus (sensu lato).
> >> >
> >> > My hypothesis
was that large rafts of dislodged Nothofagus
> >> > trees (due to
tsunami or other massive flooding event) could
> >> > have held some
of their fruit above the ocean surface and
> >> > rafted from
Tasmania to New Zealand, where one or more new
> >> > species could
evolve (due to founder effect). This would
> >> > be a
relatively short rafting event compared to the much
> >> > longer
driftwood oceanic rafting that happened from South
> >> > America to
Tasmania: Barber, 1959, in the journal Nature;
> >> > "Transport of
Driftwood from South America to
> >> > Tasmania". Is
there other evidence that such dispersal
> >> > of Nothofagus
could have happened? Could certain insects,
> >> > mosses, or
other organisms have hitched a ride on such a
> >> > Nothofagus
raft?
> >> >
> >> >
--------------Ken
Kinman
> >> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/pipermail/taxacom/2006-
> December/108385.html
> >> >
_______________________________________________
> >> > Taxacom
Mailing List
> >> > Send
> >> > Taxacom
mailing list submissions to: Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> >> >
> >> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> >> > The Taxacom
Archive back to 1992 may be
> >> > searched at:
http://taxacom.markmail.org
> >> > To subscribe
or unsubscribe via the Web, visit:
> >> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> >> > You can reach
the person managing the list at:
> >> > taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> >> >
> >> > Nurturing
Nuance while
> >> > Assaulting
Ambiguity for 31 Some Years, 1987-2018.
> >> >
> >> >
_______________________________________________
> >> > Taxacom Mailing
List
> >> > Send Taxacom mailing
list submissions to: Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> >> >
> >> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> >> > The Taxacom Archive
back to 1992 may be searched at:
> >> > http://taxacom.markmail.org
> >> > To subscribe or
unsubscribe via the Web, visit:
> >> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> >> > You can reach the
person managing the list at:
> >> > taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> >> >
> >> > Nurturing Nuance
while Assaulting Ambiguity for 31 Some Years,
> >> 1987-2018.
> >> >
> >>
_______________________________________________
> >> Taxacom Mailing List
> >> Send Taxacom mailing list
submissions to: Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> >>
> >> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> >> The Taxacom Archive back
to 1992 may be searched at:
> >> http://taxacom.markmail.org
> >> To subscribe or
unsubscribe via the Web, visit:
> >> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> >> You can reach the person
managing the list at:
> >> taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> >>
> >> Nurturing Nuance while
Assaulting Ambiguity for 31 Some Years,
> 1987-2018.
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > -So many mites, so little
time!
> > Barry M. OConnor
> > Professor &
Curator
> > Department of Ecology &
Evolutionary Biology
> > Research Museums Center
> > University of Michigan
phone: 734-763-4354
> > 3600 Varsity Drive
> > <https://maps.google.com/?q=3600+Varsity+Drive&entry=gmail&source=g>
> >
fax: 734-763-4080
> > Ann Arbor, MI
48108-2228 e-mail: bmoc at umich.edu
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
> Taxacom Mailing List
> Send Taxacom mailing list
submissions to taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> The Taxacom Archive back to 1992
may be searched at:
> http://taxacom.markmail.org
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via
the Web, visit:
> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> You can reach the person managing
the list at:
> taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
>
> Nurturing Nuance while Assaulting
Ambiguity for 31 Some Years, 1987-2018.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of Taxacom Digest, Vol 146,
Issue 3
>
***************************************
>
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