[Taxacom] Long distance oceanic dispersal
John Grehan
calabar.john at gmail.com
Sun Jun 3 15:05:12 CDT 2018
where do fairy tales begin and end? Have we finally reached non-science?
On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 3:57 PM, Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Bart,
>
> But in that tangled mass of Nothofagus trees there would be plenty
> of them upside down with roots above the ocean surface. Are you saying
> that none of those fungal symbionts could have survived the voyage in that
> manner?
>
> ---------------Ken
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Bart BUYCK <bart.buyck at mnhn.fr>
> Sent: Sunday, June 3, 2018 2:44 PM
> To: Kenneth Kinman
> Cc: Les Watling; Cc: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Long distance oceanic dispersal
>
> "but it only would take one Nothofagus fruit to establish the species at
> the end of the voyage"
>
> oh no.... not at all....there you are completelty wrong...
> botanists hardly ever seem to realize that plants do not exist without
> their mycorrhizal symbionts
> and Nothofagus is ectomycorrhizal.. which means it needs specific fungal
> symbionts if a germinating seed wants to develop into a young plant
> so... all Nothofagus in Tasmania and Oceania share the same fungal
> symbionts and also the same fungal parasites... meaning that everything
> points to vicariance.
>
> bart
>
>
>
> ----- Mail original -----
> De: "Kenneth Kinman" <kinman at hotmail.com>
> À: "Les Watling" <watling at hawaii.edu>, "Cc: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu" <
> taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Envoyé: Dimanche 3 Juin 2018 21:22:12
> Objet: Re: [Taxacom] Long distance oceanic dispersal
>
> Hi Les,
>
> But I envisage a huge raft of dozens or even hundreds of trees
> tangled together in a sort of a small temporary island. It's true that
> lots of Nothofagus fruits could eventually get spoiled by salt water, but
> it only would take one Nothofagus fruit to establish the species at the end
> of the voyage. And if a tsunami was the cause, that voyage could have been
> abnormally short. Rain water could have also helped wash salt water off
> whatever other hitchhikers were riding on this temporary "island".
>
> In any case, many authors have concluded that these two Nothofagus
> invasions of New Zealand were too late to have been the result of
> vicariance. At first I thought dispersal by birds was a possibility, but
> then decided rafting was probably more likely. I would recommend reading
> the following article:
>
> http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article/file?id=
> 10.1371/journal.pbio.0030014&type=printable
>
>
> ---------------------Ken
>
> ________________________________
> From: Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu> on behalf of Les
> Watling <watling at hawaii.edu>
> Sent: Sunday, June 3, 2018 1:22 PM
> To: Cc: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Long distance oceanic dispersal
>
> I would suggest that it is one thing for marine species to raft across the
> ocean, and for shallow or beach wrack species that might be reasonably
> possible, but for terrestrial species to make it.... well that is another
> thing unless there is positive evidence for salt water tolerance, as in the
> case of coconuts.
>
> Having spent some time in storms in the southern ocean, I would think there
> is no way, even for 20,000 instances of drift initiated by a tsunami, that
> a plant or animal with low tolerance to salt water could make it in
> sufficient form to colonize some other shore. Usually these storms at the
> southern end of the earth produce swells and spilling waves of 5-20 m
> height, depending on location, so anything in the water is going to get
> tumbled. Put a fruit of Nothofagus in sea water for a couple of months and
> then let us know whether it will germinate. Same with mites, mosses, and
> the like.
>
> For Nothofagus, I suspect this is the least likeliest explanation for their
> distribution. Drifting land masses keeps things out of the salt!
>
> Best,
>
> Les Watling
> Professor, Dept. of Biology
> 216 Edmondson Hall
> University of Hawaii at Manoa
> Honolulu, HI 96822
> Ph. 808-956-8621
> Cell: 808-772-9563
> e-mail: watling at hawaii.edu
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 1:00 PM, <taxacom-request at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> wrote:
>
> > Daily News from the Taxacom Mailing List
> >
> > When responding to a message, please do not copy the entire digest into
> > your reply.
> > ____________________________________
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> > 1. Please ignore test POST (bayshark at exemail.com.au)
> > 2. Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of Nothofagus
> > species (Kenneth Kinman)
> > 3. Re: Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of Nothofagus
> > species (Stephen Thorpe)
> > 4. Workplace gender quotas in science and elsewhere (Stephen Thorpe)
> > 5. Re: Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of Nothofagus
> > species (Michael Heads)
> > 6. Re: Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of Nothofagus
> > species (Kenneth Kinman)
> > 7. Re: Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of Nothofagus
> > species (John Grehan)
> > 8. Re: Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of Nothofagus
> > species (Barry OConnor)
> > 9. Re: Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of Nothofagus
> > species (John Grehan)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2018 09:18:47 +1000
> > From: <bayshark at exemail.com.au>
> > To: "'taxacom'" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> > Subject: [Taxacom] Please ignore test POST
> > Message-ID: <9D276EBC40DE4F4FBEC791FE607A04AC at RicardoPC>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >
> > Because I am receiving recently my post twice in a few days
> >
> > Vratislav
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2018 01:51:08 +0000
> > From: Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com>
> > To: Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com>
> > Cc: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> > Subject: [Taxacom] Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of
> > Nothofagus species
> > Message-ID:
> > <CY4PR11MB14801083F5BA1FC595E60745C1610 at CY4PR11MB1480.
> > namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
> >
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> > Hi all,
> > The recent thread got me thinking about a debate that some of us
> > were having on taxacom almost 12 years ago. Namely whether long-distance
> > oceanic dispersal (by rafting) was a significant factor in the geographic
> > distribution of some species of Nothofagus (sensu lato).
> > My hypothesis was that large rafts of dislodged Nothofagus trees
> > (due to tsunami or other massive flooding event) could have held some of
> > their fruit above the ocean surface and rafted from Tasmania to New
> > Zealand, where one or more new species could evolve (due to founder
> > effect). This would be a relatively short rafting event compared to the
> > much longer driftwood oceanic rafting that happened from South America to
> > Tasmania: Barber, 1959, in the journal Nature; "Transport of Driftwood
> from
> > South America to Tasmania". Is there other evidence that such dispersal
> of
> > Nothofagus could have happened? Could certain insects, mosses, or other
> > organisms have hitched a ride on such a Nothofagus raft?
> > --------------Ken Kinman
> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/pipermail/taxacom/2006-December/108385.html
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2018 01:59:31 +0000 (UTC)
> > From: Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
> > To: Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com>
> > Cc: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of
> > Nothofagus species
> > Message-ID: <967563807.8135822.1527991171054 at mail.yahoo.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> >
> > "Could certain insects, mosses, or other organisms have hitched a ride on
> > such a Nothofagus raft?"
> >
> > Impossible to rule out just about anything that doesn't constantly
> require
> > running freshwater. If it happened during summer, there could be a
> > desiccating effect, but at other times the amount of freshwater dampness
> > could remain at acceptable levels.
> >
> > The problem though, as I see it, is that these dispersion events are
> > entirely random and unpredictable, so it is hard to base much in the way
> of
> > science on it.
> >
> > Stephen
> >
> > --------------------------------------------
> > On Sun, 3/6/18, Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Subject: [Taxacom] Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of
> > Nothofagus species
> > To: "Kenneth Kinman" <kinman at hotmail.com>
> > Cc: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> > Received: Sunday, 3 June, 2018, 1:51 PM
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > The recent thread got me thinking about a debate that some
> > of us were having on taxacom almost 12 years ago. Namely
> > whether long-distance oceanic dispersal (by rafting) was a
> > significant factor in the geographic distribution of some
> > species of Nothofagus (sensu lato).
> >
> > My hypothesis was that large rafts of dislodged Nothofagus
> > trees (due to tsunami or other massive flooding event) could
> > have held some of their fruit above the ocean surface and
> > rafted from Tasmania to New Zealand, where one or more new
> > species could evolve (due to founder effect). This would
> > be a relatively short rafting event compared to the much
> > longer driftwood oceanic rafting that happened from South
> > America to Tasmania: Barber, 1959, in the journal Nature;
> > "Transport of Driftwood from South America to
> > Tasmania". Is there other evidence that such dispersal
> > of Nothofagus could have happened? Could certain insects,
> > mosses, or other organisms have hitched a ride on such a
> > Nothofagus raft?
> >
> > --------------Ken Kinman
> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/pipermail/taxacom/2006-December/108385.html
> > _______________________________________________
> > Taxacom Mailing List
> > Send
> > Taxacom mailing list submissions to: Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> >
> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be
> > searched at: http://taxacom.markmail.org
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the Web, visit:
> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > You can reach the person managing the list at:
> > taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> >
> > Nurturing Nuance while
> > Assaulting Ambiguity for 31 Some Years, 1987-2018.
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2018 02:22:47 +0000 (UTC)
> > From: Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
> > To: <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> > Subject: [Taxacom] Workplace gender quotas in science and elsewhere
> > Message-ID: <1779694158.8141044.1527992567102 at mail.yahoo.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> >
> > This subject is perhaps a bit off-topic for Taxacom, but workplace gender
> > quotas may be applied to taxonomic jobs as much as any other, so I
> thought
> > it might be worth highlighting a most ridiculous spin being put on
> research
> > to defend workplace gender quotas against the objection they are
> > unmeritocratic (=candidates of high merit may miss out just because they
> > are yet another male).
> >
> > https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/workplace-
> > gender-quotas-incompetence-efficiency-business-
> > organisations-london-school-economics-lse-a7797061.html
> >
> > The argument seems to be that far from being unmeritocratic, workplace
> > gender quotas actually weed out men of mediocre/low merit (competence),
> so
> > it is all good!
> >
> > Quite apart from the fact that "Those with higher incomes were deemed
> more
> > competent", which is itself laughable for fairly obvious (I hope!)
> reasons,
> > the real killer in this argument is this, I suggest:
> >
> > With a quota in place, what are you going to do? (A) Replace the most
> > competent men with women; or (B) Replace the least competent men with
> > women? It is a bit of a no-brainer (to say the least!) to opt for (B), so
> > of course workplace gender quotas weed out men of mediocre/low
> competence!
> >
> > Given that "Those with higher incomes were deemed more competent" and
> > higher income=more senior role, all that is happening is that women are
> > being selected for the less senior roles in order to keep the more senior
> > roles male dominated!
> >
> > Although this doesn't paint a good picture of workplace sexism, my main
> > point is that the study actually does nothing to counter the objection
> that
> > workplace gender quotas are unmeritocratic, even though that is how it is
> > being spun! Sure, if you define competence in terms of income and somehow
> > link it to the concept of "merit", men of lower competence ("merit") are
> > being "weeded out", but this does nothing to counter the objection that
> men
> > who would otherwise be hired on merit miss out simply due to the fact
> that
> > they are men, and I would call that gender discrimination against men!
> > Worse, it is quite consistent with a less competent woman being hired
> > instead of a more competent man, however you define competency, if the
> male
> > quota is already filled.
> >
> > I am quite alarmed by the subversive and misleading nature of some
> > so-called "research" in this area!
> >
> > Stephen
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 5
> > Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2018 17:20:34 +1200
> > From: Michael Heads <m.j.heads at gmail.com>
> > To: Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com>
> > Cc: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of
> > Nothofagus species
> > Message-ID:
> > <CAF_uauDCQL0mfbHP0Mw39ep4N27V2dZMRecMBrifWvYvDGza+Q at mail.gmail.
> > com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> >
> > even one-in-a-thousand-years tsunamis would have occurred 20 000 times in
> > the Neogene alone, so you then have to explain why dispersal occurred
> only
> > once. And why the same pattern has occurred in many other groups. Of
> > course, that isn't a problem with chance dispersal, which can explain any
> > distribution at all.
> >
> > On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 1:51 PM, Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi all,
> > > The recent thread got me thinking about a debate that some of us
> > > were having on taxacom almost 12 years ago. Namely whether
> long-distance
> > > oceanic dispersal (by rafting) was a significant factor in the
> geographic
> > > distribution of some species of Nothofagus (sensu lato).
> > > My hypothesis was that large rafts of dislodged Nothofagus trees
> > > (due to tsunami or other massive flooding event) could have held some
> of
> > > their fruit above the ocean surface and rafted from Tasmania to New
> > > Zealand, where one or more new species could evolve (due to founder
> > > effect). This would be a relatively short rafting event compared to
> the
> > > much longer driftwood oceanic rafting that happened from South America
> to
> > > Tasmania: Barber, 1959, in the journal Nature; "Transport of Driftwood
> > from
> > > South America to Tasmania". Is there other evidence that such dispersal
> > of
> > > Nothofagus could have happened? Could certain insects, mosses, or other
> > > organisms have hitched a ride on such a Nothofagus raft?
> > > --------------Ken Kinman
> > > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/pipermail/taxacom/2006-December/108385.html
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Taxacom Mailing List
> > > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > >
> > > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > > The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched at:
> > > http://taxacom.markmail.org
> > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the Web, visit:
> > > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > > You can reach the person managing the list at:
> > > taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > >
> > > Nurturing Nuance while Assaulting Ambiguity for 31 Some Years,
> 1987-2018.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Dunedin, New Zealand.
> >
> > My books:
> >
> > *Biogeography and evolution in New Zealand. *Taylor and Francis/CRC, Boca
> > Raton FL. 2017.
> > https://www.routledge.com/Biogeography-and-Evolution-in-
> > New-Zealand/Heads/p/book/9781498751872
> >
> >
> > *Biogeography of Australasia: A molecular analysis*. Cambridge
> University
> > Press, Cambridge. 2014. www.cambridge.org/9781107041028<http://www.
> cambridge.org/9781107041028<http://www.cambridge.org/9781107041028<
> http://www.cambridge.org/9781107041028>>
> >
> >
> > *Molecular panbiogeography of the tropics. *University of California
> Press,
> > Berkeley. 2012. www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520271968<http://www.
> ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520271968<http://www.
> ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520271968<http://www.
> ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520271968>>
> >
> >
> > *Panbiogeography: Tracking the history of life*. Oxford University Press,
> > New York. 1999. (With R. Craw and J. Grehan).
> > http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=Bm0_QQ3Z6GUC
> > <http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=Bm0_QQ3Z6GUC&dq=
> > panbiogeography&source=gbs_navlinks_s>
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 6
> > Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2018 12:38:12 +0000
> > From: Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com>
> > To: Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
> > Cc: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of
> > Nothofagus species
> > Message-ID:
> > <CY4PR11MB1480E18ABE5835F633E440D6C1600 at CY4PR11MB1480.
> > namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
> >
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> > Hi Stephen,
> >
> > But it could be somewhat scientifically testable if some organisms
> > (mostly likely insects) have the same odd distribution in New Zealand and
> > Tasmania (or adjacent Australia). So I am hoping that some entomologist
> > might know of insects that fit the bill. And if there were more than one
> > such organism, the more likely this dispersal scenario would become.
> >
> > And note that I cited two different Nothofagus species groups with
> > the same odd distribution (one in subgenus Lophozonia and the other in
> > subgenus Fuscospora). And those two dispersals could have happened at
> > different times. So that already increases the probability of dispersal.
> > Anyway, at least Fred understood what I was suggesting:
> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/pipermail/taxacom/2006-December/108388.html
> >
> >
> > -----------------Ken
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
> > Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2018 8:59 PM
> > To: Kenneth Kinman
> > Cc: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of
> > Nothofagus species
> >
> > "Could certain insects, mosses, or other organisms have hitched a ride on
> > such a Nothofagus raft?"
> >
> > Impossible to rule out just about anything that doesn't constantly
> require
> > running freshwater. If it happened during summer, there could be a
> > desiccating effect, but at other times the amount of freshwater dampness
> > could remain at acceptable levels.
> >
> > The problem though, as I see it, is that these dispersion events are
> > entirely random and unpredictable, so it is hard to base much in the way
> of
> > science on it.
> >
> > Stephen
> >
> > --------------------------------------------
> > On Sun, 3/6/18, Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Subject: [Taxacom] Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of
> > Nothofagus species
> > To: "Kenneth Kinman" <kinman at hotmail.com>
> > Cc: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> > Received: Sunday, 3 June, 2018, 1:51 PM
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > The recent thread got me thinking about a debate that some
> > of us were having on taxacom almost 12 years ago. Namely
> > whether long-distance oceanic dispersal (by rafting) was a
> > significant factor in the geographic distribution of some
> > species of Nothofagus (sensu lato).
> >
> > My hypothesis was that large rafts of dislodged Nothofagus
> > trees (due to tsunami or other massive flooding event) could
> > have held some of their fruit above the ocean surface and
> > rafted from Tasmania to New Zealand, where one or more new
> > species could evolve (due to founder effect). This would
> > be a relatively short rafting event compared to the much
> > longer driftwood oceanic rafting that happened from South
> > America to Tasmania: Barber, 1959, in the journal Nature;
> > "Transport of Driftwood from South America to
> > Tasmania". Is there other evidence that such dispersal
> > of Nothofagus could have happened? Could certain insects,
> > mosses, or other organisms have hitched a ride on such a
> > Nothofagus raft?
> >
> > --------------Ken Kinman
> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/pipermail/taxacom/2006-December/108385.html
> > _______________________________________________
> > Taxacom Mailing List
> > Send
> > Taxacom mailing list submissions to: Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> >
> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be
> > searched at: http://taxacom.markmail.org
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the Web, visit:
> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > You can reach the person managing the list at:
> > taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> >
> > Nurturing Nuance while
> > Assaulting Ambiguity for 31 Some Years, 1987-2018.
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 7
> > Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2018 10:46:22 -0400
> > From: John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
> > To: Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com>
> > Cc: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of
> > Nothofagus species
> > Message-ID:
> > <CADN0ud3yeaD2==LcQApvDpFNQqZ7vJUfq05D9u-rKNjpwVvwhg at mail.
> > gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> >
> > Ken,
> >
> > Its not a testable notion in any real sense any more than attributing the
> > connection to UFO's. Further, it is not an 'odd' distribution, but one
> that
> > is very even (meaning standard). One can invoke any number of imaginary
> > events to toss plants and animals from one side of the Tasman to the
> other,
> > or even just place them there by an Act of God, but there is no empirical
> > imperative to do so for this any more than imagining a tsunami to toss
> > frogs from Vancouver to New Zealand.
> >
> > John Grehan
> >
> > On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 8:38 AM, Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Stephen,
> > >
> > > But it could be somewhat scientifically testable if some
> organisms
> > > (mostly likely insects) have the same odd distribution in New Zealand
> and
> > > Tasmania (or adjacent Australia). So I am hoping that some
> entomologist
> > > might know of insects that fit the bill. And if there were more than
> one
> > > such organism, the more likely this dispersal scenario would become.
> > >
> > > And note that I cited two different Nothofagus species groups
> with
> > > the same odd distribution (one in subgenus Lophozonia and the other in
> > > subgenus Fuscospora). And those two dispersals could have happened at
> > > different times. So that already increases the probability of
> dispersal.
> > > Anyway, at least Fred understood what I was suggesting:
> > > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/pipermail/taxacom/2006-December/108388.html
> > >
> > >
> > > -----------------Ken
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
> > > Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2018 8:59 PM
> > > To: Kenneth Kinman
> > > Cc: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of
> > > Nothofagus species
> > >
> > > "Could certain insects, mosses, or other organisms have hitched a ride
> on
> > > such a Nothofagus raft?"
> > >
> > > Impossible to rule out just about anything that doesn't constantly
> > require
> > > running freshwater. If it happened during summer, there could be a
> > > desiccating effect, but at other times the amount of freshwater
> dampness
> > > could remain at acceptable levels.
> > >
> > > The problem though, as I see it, is that these dispersion events are
> > > entirely random and unpredictable, so it is hard to base much in the
> way
> > of
> > > science on it.
> > >
> > > Stephen
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------
> > > On Sun, 3/6/18, Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Subject: [Taxacom] Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of
> > > Nothofagus species
> > > To: "Kenneth Kinman" <kinman at hotmail.com>
> > > Cc: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> > > Received: Sunday, 3 June, 2018, 1:51 PM
> > >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > The recent thread got me thinking about a debate that some
> > > of us were having on taxacom almost 12 years ago. Namely
> > > whether long-distance oceanic dispersal (by rafting) was a
> > > significant factor in the geographic distribution of some
> > > species of Nothofagus (sensu lato).
> > >
> > > My hypothesis was that large rafts of dislodged Nothofagus
> > > trees (due to tsunami or other massive flooding event) could
> > > have held some of their fruit above the ocean surface and
> > > rafted from Tasmania to New Zealand, where one or more new
> > > species could evolve (due to founder effect). This would
> > > be a relatively short rafting event compared to the much
> > > longer driftwood oceanic rafting that happened from South
> > > America to Tasmania: Barber, 1959, in the journal Nature;
> > > "Transport of Driftwood from South America to
> > > Tasmania". Is there other evidence that such dispersal
> > > of Nothofagus could have happened? Could certain insects,
> > > mosses, or other organisms have hitched a ride on such a
> > > Nothofagus raft?
> > >
> > > --------------Ken Kinman
> > > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/pipermail/taxacom/2006-December/108385.html
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Taxacom Mailing List
> > > Send
> > > Taxacom mailing list submissions to: Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > >
> > > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > > The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be
> > > searched at: http://taxacom.markmail.org
> > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the Web, visit:
> > > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > > You can reach the person managing the list at:
> > > taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > >
> > > Nurturing Nuance while
> > > Assaulting Ambiguity for 31 Some Years, 1987-2018.
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Taxacom Mailing List
> > > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > >
> > > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > > The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched at:
> > > http://taxacom.markmail.org
> > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the Web, visit:
> > > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > > You can reach the person managing the list at:
> > > taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > >
> > > Nurturing Nuance while Assaulting Ambiguity for 31 Some Years,
> 1987-2018.
> > >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 8
> > Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2018 11:02:15 -0400
> > From: Barry OConnor <bmoc at umich.edu>
> > To: John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
> > Cc: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of
> > Nothofagus species
> > Message-ID:
> > <CAC+ZtPdcUBJAkPUV70J0gz3aHzDo91=KxSWs1PmZQEzRzHWVdg at mail.gmail.
> > com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> >
> > A mite originally described from beach wrack in the Russian far east
> turned
> > up in beach wrack on the Oregon coast after the big Japanese
> > earthquake/tsunami. Could have always been there, just never discovered
> > until later. Given all the Asian stuff found on beaches in the Pacific
> > northwest after the tsunami, either way it's a possibility that its
> > distribution was affected by tsunamis at some point. As John points out,
> > however, neither scenario is testable without historical data, which is
> > absent.
> > All the best! - Barry
> >
> > On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 10:46 AM, John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Ken,
> > >
> > > Its not a testable notion in any real sense any more than attributing
> the
> > > connection to UFO's. Further, it is not an 'odd' distribution, but one
> > that
> > > is very even (meaning standard). One can invoke any number of imaginary
> > > events to toss plants and animals from one side of the Tasman to the
> > other,
> > > or even just place them there by an Act of God, but there is no
> empirical
> > > imperative to do so for this any more than imagining a tsunami to toss
> > > frogs from Vancouver to New Zealand.
> > >
> > > John Grehan
> > >
> > > On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 8:38 AM, Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi Stephen,
> > > >
> > > > But it could be somewhat scientifically testable if some
> > organisms
> > > > (mostly likely insects) have the same odd distribution in New Zealand
> > and
> > > > Tasmania (or adjacent Australia). So I am hoping that some
> > entomologist
> > > > might know of insects that fit the bill. And if there were more than
> > one
> > > > such organism, the more likely this dispersal scenario would become.
> > > >
> > > > And note that I cited two different Nothofagus species groups
> > with
> > > > the same odd distribution (one in subgenus Lophozonia and the other
> in
> > > > subgenus Fuscospora). And those two dispersals could have happened
> at
> > > > different times. So that already increases the probability of
> > dispersal.
> > > > Anyway, at least Fred understood what I was suggesting:
> > > > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/pipermail/taxacom/2006-
> December/108388.html
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----------------Ken
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
> > > > Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2018 8:59 PM
> > > > To: Kenneth Kinman
> > > > Cc: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > > > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of
> > > > Nothofagus species
> > > >
> > > > "Could certain insects, mosses, or other organisms have hitched a
> ride
> > on
> > > > such a Nothofagus raft?"
> > > >
> > > > Impossible to rule out just about anything that doesn't constantly
> > > require
> > > > running freshwater. If it happened during summer, there could be a
> > > > desiccating effect, but at other times the amount of freshwater
> > dampness
> > > > could remain at acceptable levels.
> > > >
> > > > The problem though, as I see it, is that these dispersion events are
> > > > entirely random and unpredictable, so it is hard to base much in the
> > way
> > > of
> > > > science on it.
> > > >
> > > > Stephen
> > > >
> > > > --------------------------------------------
> > > > On Sun, 3/6/18, Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Subject: [Taxacom] Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of
> > > > Nothofagus species
> > > > To: "Kenneth Kinman" <kinman at hotmail.com>
> > > > Cc: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> > > > Received: Sunday, 3 June, 2018, 1:51 PM
> > > >
> > > > Hi all,
> > > >
> > > > The recent thread got me thinking about a debate that some
> > > > of us were having on taxacom almost 12 years ago. Namely
> > > > whether long-distance oceanic dispersal (by rafting) was a
> > > > significant factor in the geographic distribution of some
> > > > species of Nothofagus (sensu lato).
> > > >
> > > > My hypothesis was that large rafts of dislodged Nothofagus
> > > > trees (due to tsunami or other massive flooding event) could
> > > > have held some of their fruit above the ocean surface and
> > > > rafted from Tasmania to New Zealand, where one or more new
> > > > species could evolve (due to founder effect). This would
> > > > be a relatively short rafting event compared to the much
> > > > longer driftwood oceanic rafting that happened from South
> > > > America to Tasmania: Barber, 1959, in the journal Nature;
> > > > "Transport of Driftwood from South America to
> > > > Tasmania". Is there other evidence that such dispersal
> > > > of Nothofagus could have happened? Could certain insects,
> > > > mosses, or other organisms have hitched a ride on such a
> > > > Nothofagus raft?
> > > >
> > > > --------------Ken Kinman
> > > > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/pipermail/taxacom/2006-
> December/108385.html
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Taxacom Mailing List
> > > > Send
> > > > Taxacom mailing list submissions to: Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > > >
> > > > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > > > The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be
> > > > searched at: http://taxacom.markmail.org
> > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the Web, visit:
> > > > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > > > You can reach the person managing the list at:
> > > > taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > > >
> > > > Nurturing Nuance while
> > > > Assaulting Ambiguity for 31 Some Years, 1987-2018.
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Taxacom Mailing List
> > > > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > > >
> > > > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > > > The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched at:
> > > > http://taxacom.markmail.org
> > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the Web, visit:
> > > > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > > > You can reach the person managing the list at:
> > > > taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > > >
> > > > Nurturing Nuance while Assaulting Ambiguity for 31 Some Years,
> > 1987-2018.
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Taxacom Mailing List
> > > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > >
> > > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > > The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched at:
> > > http://taxacom.markmail.org
> > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the Web, visit:
> > > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > > You can reach the person managing the list at:
> > > taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > >
> > > Nurturing Nuance while Assaulting Ambiguity for 31 Some Years,
> 1987-2018.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > -So many mites, so little time!
> > Barry M. OConnor
> > Professor & Curator
> > Department of Ecology & Evolutionary Biology
> > Research Museums Center
> > University of Michigan phone: 734-763-4354
> > 3600 Varsity Drive fax: 734-763-4080
> > Ann Arbor, MI 48108-2228 e-mail: bmoc at umich.edu
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 9
> > Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2018 11:17:29 -0400
> > From: John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
> > To: Barry OConnor <bmoc at umich.edu>
> > Cc: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of
> > Nothofagus species
> > Message-ID:
> > <CADN0ud30i3CatTHDK5s4K1qS=VMZuyEg=iWST2NPO-4jCzdD0Q@
> > mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> >
> > There is not doubt that some organism drift around, either frequently or
> > infrequently. But its a big leap to just say this is how endemic taxa
> arise
> > in different locations. Bit like when Darwin found that snails (or
> seeds, I
> > forget which) could survive for considerable time in seawater and
> therefore
> > they did and this was sufficient to explain disjunctive origins. Chance
> > dispersal has been widely promoted under molecular clock theory but its a
> > chimera resulting from the misrepresentation of molecular dating. Chance
> > dispersal continues to hold a very visceral appeal for evolutionary
> > biologists and perhaps this is not so surprising as we see plants (or
> their
> > propagules) and animals drifting about every day. But its the kind of
> > reasoning that gives a bad name to the science of evolution.
> >
> > John Grehan
> >
> > On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 11:02 AM, Barry OConnor <bmoc at umich.edu> wrote:
> >
> > > A mite originally described from beach wrack in the Russian far east
> > > turned up in beach wrack on the Oregon coast after the big Japanese
> > > earthquake/tsunami. Could have always been there, just never discovered
> > > until later. Given all the Asian stuff found on beaches in the Pacific
> > > northwest after the tsunami, either way it's a possibility that its
> > > distribution was affected by tsunamis at some point. As John points
> out,
> > > however, neither scenario is testable without historical data, which is
> > > absent.
> > > All the best! - Barry
> > >
> > > On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 10:46 AM, John Grehan <calabar.john at gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >> Ken,
> > >>
> > >> Its not a testable notion in any real sense any more than attributing
> > the
> > >> connection to UFO's. Further, it is not an 'odd' distribution, but one
> > >> that
> > >> is very even (meaning standard). One can invoke any number of
> imaginary
> > >> events to toss plants and animals from one side of the Tasman to the
> > >> other,
> > >> or even just place them there by an Act of God, but there is no
> > empirical
> > >> imperative to do so for this any more than imagining a tsunami to toss
> > >> frogs from Vancouver to New Zealand.
> > >>
> > >> John Grehan
> > >>
> > >> On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 8:38 AM, Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > Hi Stephen,
> > >> >
> > >> > But it could be somewhat scientifically testable if some
> > organisms
> > >> > (mostly likely insects) have the same odd distribution in New
> Zealand
> > >> and
> > >> > Tasmania (or adjacent Australia). So I am hoping that some
> > entomologist
> > >> > might know of insects that fit the bill. And if there were more
> than
> > >> one
> > >> > such organism, the more likely this dispersal scenario would become.
> > >> >
> > >> > And note that I cited two different Nothofagus species groups
> > >> with
> > >> > the same odd distribution (one in subgenus Lophozonia and the other
> in
> > >> > subgenus Fuscospora). And those two dispersals could have happened
> at
> > >> > different times. So that already increases the probability of
> > >> dispersal.
> > >> > Anyway, at least Fred understood what I was suggesting:
> > >> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/pipermail/taxacom/2006-
> December/108388.html
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > -----------------Ken
> > >> >
> > >> > ________________________________
> > >> > From: Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
> > >> > Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2018 8:59 PM
> > >> > To: Kenneth Kinman
> > >> > Cc: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > >> > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of
> > >> > Nothofagus species
> > >> >
> > >> > "Could certain insects, mosses, or other organisms have hitched a
> ride
> > >> on
> > >> > such a Nothofagus raft?"
> > >> >
> > >> > Impossible to rule out just about anything that doesn't constantly
> > >> require
> > >> > running freshwater. If it happened during summer, there could be a
> > >> > desiccating effect, but at other times the amount of freshwater
> > dampness
> > >> > could remain at acceptable levels.
> > >> >
> > >> > The problem though, as I see it, is that these dispersion events are
> > >> > entirely random and unpredictable, so it is hard to base much in the
> > >> way of
> > >> > science on it.
> > >> >
> > >> > Stephen
> > >> >
> > >> > --------------------------------------------
> > >> > On Sun, 3/6/18, Kenneth Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > Subject: [Taxacom] Long-distance oceanic dispersal (rafting) of
> > >> > Nothofagus species
> > >> > To: "Kenneth Kinman" <kinman at hotmail.com>
> > >> > Cc: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> > >> > Received: Sunday, 3 June, 2018, 1:51 PM
> > >> >
> > >> > Hi all,
> > >> >
> > >> > The recent thread got me thinking about a debate that some
> > >> > of us were having on taxacom almost 12 years ago. Namely
> > >> > whether long-distance oceanic dispersal (by rafting) was a
> > >> > significant factor in the geographic distribution of some
> > >> > species of Nothofagus (sensu lato).
> > >> >
> > >> > My hypothesis was that large rafts of dislodged Nothofagus
> > >> > trees (due to tsunami or other massive flooding event) could
> > >> > have held some of their fruit above the ocean surface and
> > >> > rafted from Tasmania to New Zealand, where one or more new
> > >> > species could evolve (due to founder effect). This would
> > >> > be a relatively short rafting event compared to the much
> > >> > longer driftwood oceanic rafting that happened from South
> > >> > America to Tasmania: Barber, 1959, in the journal Nature;
> > >> > "Transport of Driftwood from South America to
> > >> > Tasmania". Is there other evidence that such dispersal
> > >> > of Nothofagus could have happened? Could certain insects,
> > >> > mosses, or other organisms have hitched a ride on such a
> > >> > Nothofagus raft?
> > >> >
> > >> > --------------Ken Kinman
> > >> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/pipermail/taxacom/2006-
> > December/108385.html
> > >> > _______________________________________________
> > >> > Taxacom Mailing List
> > >> > Send
> > >> > Taxacom mailing list submissions to: Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > >> >
> > >> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > >> > The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be
> > >> > searched at: http://taxacom.markmail.org
> > >> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the Web, visit:
> > >> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > >> > You can reach the person managing the list at:
> > >> > taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > >> >
> > >> > Nurturing Nuance while
> > >> > Assaulting Ambiguity for 31 Some Years, 1987-2018.
> > >> >
> > >> > _______________________________________________
> > >> > Taxacom Mailing List
> > >> > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to:
> Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > >> >
> > >> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > >> > The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched at:
> > >> > http://taxacom.markmail.org
> > >> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the Web, visit:
> > >> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > >> > You can reach the person managing the list at:
> > >> > taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > >> >
> > >> > Nurturing Nuance while Assaulting Ambiguity for 31 Some Years,
> > >> 1987-2018.
> > >> >
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Taxacom Mailing List
> > >> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > >>
> > >> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > >> The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched at:
> > >> http://taxacom.markmail.org
> > >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the Web, visit:
> > >> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > >> You can reach the person managing the list at:
> > >> taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > >>
> > >> Nurturing Nuance while Assaulting Ambiguity for 31 Some Years,
> > 1987-2018.
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > -So many mites, so little time!
> > > Barry M. OConnor
> > > Professor & Curator
> > > Department of Ecology & Evolutionary Biology
> > > Research Museums Center
> > > University of Michigan phone: 734-763-4354
> > > 3600 Varsity Drive
> > > <https://maps.google.com/?q=3600+Varsity+Drive&entry=gmail&source=g>
> > > fax: 734-763-4080
> > > Ann Arbor, MI 48108-2228 e-mail: bmoc at umich.edu
> > >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Subject: Digest Footer
> >
> > Taxacom Mailing List
> > Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched at:
> > http://taxacom.markmail.org
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the Web, visit:
> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > You can reach the person managing the list at:
> > taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> >
> > Nurturing Nuance while Assaulting Ambiguity for 31 Some Years, 1987-2018.
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > End of Taxacom Digest, Vol 146, Issue 3
> > ***************************************
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Taxacom Mailing List
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>
> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
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> http://taxacom.markmail.org
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the Web, visit:
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> You can reach the person managing the list at:
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>
> Nurturing Nuance while Assaulting Ambiguity for 31 Some Years, 1987-2018.
> _______________________________________________
> Taxacom Mailing List
> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
>
> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
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> http://taxacom.markmail.org
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the Web, visit:
> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> You can reach the person managing the list at:
> taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
>
> Nurturing Nuance while Assaulting Ambiguity for 31 Some Years, 1987-2018.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Taxacom Mailing List
> Send Taxacom mailing list submissions to: Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
>
> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be searched at:
> http://taxacom.markmail.org
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the Web, visit:
> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> You can reach the person managing the list at:
> taxacom-owner at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
>
> Nurturing Nuance while Assaulting Ambiguity for 31 Some Years, 1987-2018.
>
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