[Taxacom] Type localities (was: Bionomina 13 published)

Sat Dec 29 15:10:48 CST 2018

Lena,
Yes, I do have a better suggestion! If a taxonomist is ever faced with a situation in which they can only use type locality information to associate a name with a species, then they should simply refrain from doing so and declare the name to be a nomen dubium. The name can then be safely ignored, rather than risk using it for the wrong species.
Stephen

--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 30/12/18, Elena Kupriyanova <Elena.Kupriyanova at austmus.gov.au> wrote:

 Subject: RE: [Taxacom] Type localities (was: Bionomina 13 published)
 To: "Stephen Thorpe" <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>, "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
 Received: Sunday, 30 December, 2018, 9:53 AM

 Stephen,
 I
 totally agree, such a scenario does create a problem. Do you
 have a better suggestion how to deal with problem?
 Lena

 Dr. Elena Kupriyanova
 Senior
 Research Scientist
 Marine Invertebrates

 Associate Editor,
 Records of the Australian Museum

 Australian Museum Research
 Institute
 1 William Street Sydney NSW 2010
 Australia
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 61402735679   f 61 2 9320 6059
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 -----Original Message-----
 From: Stephen Thorpe [mailto:stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz]
 Sent: Sunday, 30 December 2018 7:16 AM
 To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu;
 Elena Kupriyanova <Elena.Kupriyanova at austmus.gov.au>
 Subject: RE: [Taxacom] Type localities (was:
 Bionomina 13 published)

 You
 seem to have skirted around the main problem I suggested,
 which was 2 or more candidate species in sympatry at the
 type locality. It is a very real possibility. If you
 associated a name with a species, based on the type
 locality, then you assume that the stated type locality is
 correct and that there is one and only one candidate species
 present at the type locality! For a real example, a recent
 revision of the genus Sagola is interesting in that only
 males can be identified morphologically, but many old types
 are females. Nevertheless, the authors (Park & Carlton)
 somehow managed to associate every unique female holotype
 with a species, based on stated type localities, despite the
 fact that distributions are very imperfectly known, sympatry
 is common in the genus, and so many species are known from
 so few specimens that further new species are very likely
 (in sympatry with known species). Hence, effectively all the
 authors did was to make decisions as to which names referred
 to which species, taking type localities into account, but
 they might as well have just considered those old (female
 based) names to be nomina dubia. The level of uncertainty
 associated with their approach is such that some of the old
 female based species might not even occur in their assigned
 type localities, and there is probably in many cases no way
 to confirm or refute that anyway (it could lead, for
 example, to a scenario in which the type locality, after
 more collecting, turns out to be an outlier in the
 distribution of the species, but then someone will probably
 suggest range contraction due to climate change!)

 Stephen

 --------------------------------------------
 On Sun, 30/12/18, Elena Kupriyanova <Elena.Kupriyanova at austmus.gov.au>
 wrote:

  Subject: RE:
 [Taxacom] Type localities (was: Bionomina 13 published)
  To: "Stephen Thorpe" <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>,
 "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
 <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
  Received: Sunday, 30 December, 2018, 12:07
 AM

  Dr. Elena Kupriyanova
  Senior Research Scientist

 Marine Invertebrates

 Associate Editor,
  Records of
  the Australian Museum

  Australian Museum Research Institute
  1 William Street Sydney NSW 2010 Australia  t
 61 2 9320 6340   m 61402735679   f 61 2

 9320 6059
  Visit: https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.australianmuseum.net.au&data=02%7C01%7CElena.Kupriyanova%40austmus.gov.au%7C35d9ab42e3194872841008d66dca6516%7C6ee75868f5d64c8cb4cda3ddce30cfd6%7C0%7C0%7C636817113393360695&sdata=V9KcnWtQwtd92OmR719yPtcPJrG23tHT%2BuOPC0okyU8%3D&reserved=0
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  Inspiring the exploration of nature and 
 cultures

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Stephen Thorpe [mailto:stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz]
  Sent: Friday, 28 December 2018 3:07 PM
  To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu;
  Elena Kupriyanova <Elena.Kupriyanova at austmus.gov.au>
  Subject: RE: [Taxacom] Type localities
 (was:
  Bionomina 13 published)

  "to find what the name
 bearing species
  actually is one needs to
 know the type locality"

  >I disagree! One simply

 needs some way to associate the name with one and only one 
 species in the complex. Very often, type localities are
 too  vague to be much use, might be completely wrong, or
 there  might be more than one species of the complex in the
 stated  type locality (especially if it is a
 vague/imprecise type  locality).

  Yes, and what is
  the above
 mentioned "some way" please?

  > I expect you are

 imagining a scenario in which, say, some previously 
 recognised species is now considered to be a complex of 
 ALLOPATRIC cryptic species

 Not necessarily. I think I clearly stated the  scenario I
 am not imagining, but am familiar with too well -  a huge
 species complex under a name of a species that is  assumed
 to be cosmopolitan for a no good reason other than  it  is
 assumed to be cosmopolitan

 >and you want to know which of those cryptic  species
 the original name belongs to.

  Yes, don't we all?

  >The type locality MIGHT be a guide (if
 it  is correct, and if it is precise enough), but it might
 not  be of any use.

  It is
 the
  best guide we have, but it MIGHT in
 some cases be incorrect  or not precise enough indeed

  >If it isn't of any
 use, then other
  means must be sought to
 associate the name with a species,  and there are several
 options.

  Ok, continue
 please, I really want to know  about those options

  > In

 theory, if you could sequence the holotype, then DNA 
 matching might do the trick.

  In theory? Have you tried this approach?
 Yes,  if it exists and if it was not fixed in formalin as
 most  marine inverts used to be fixed, this the best
 way.

  >At any rate,
 type
  localities are not of any major
 importance: they may be  helpful, but they may not.
 That's all I'm saying (in  the context of people
 like Alain Dubious giving them far too  much attention,
 IMHO)

  I

 cannot see where this (surely unexpected :) conclusion
 comes  from. If the holotype does not exist, you collect
 fresh  material as close as possible to the TYPE
 LOCALITY,  designate a neotype, describe and sequence it.
 If the  holotype exists, but cannot be sequenced, you
 collect fresh  material as close as possible to the TYPE
 LOCALITY,  re-descibe the species based on the type and the
 fresh  material and sequence the fresh topotypical
 material. If the  type locality is not precise enough, you
 make an educated  guess and see above. If you discover
 several cryptic  sympatric species the type locality, you
 take your pick  which one you consider as the name bearing
 species for the  complex. In all cases type locality is of
 paramount  importance. I am now looking forward to hearing
 about other  several options mentioned above

  Best,

 Lena

 --------------------------------------------
  On Fri, 28/12/18, Elena Kupriyanova <Elena.Kupriyanova at austmus.gov.au>
  wrote:

 Subject: RE:
  [Taxacom] Type localities
 (was: Bionomina 13 published)
   To:
 "Stephen Thorpe" <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>, 
 "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
  <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
   Received: Friday, 28 December, 2018, 4:22 
 PM

   Yes, of course,
  ultimately you
   need to know
 the
  distributions of the species in the 
 complex. But to figure  that out one has to start with
 the  distribution of the  name bearing species of the
 complex and  to find what the  name bearing species
 actually is one needs  to know the  type locality

   Dr. Elena
 Kupriyanova
   Senior

 Research Scientist
   Marine
 Invertebrates

   Associate
 Editor,
   Records of
   the
 Australian
  Museum

   Australian Museum
  Research
 Institute
   1 William Street Sydney
  NSW 2010 Australia  t 61 2 9320 6340   m
 61402735679   f
  61 2

 9320 6059
   Visit: https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.australianmuseum.net.au&data=02%7C01%7CElena.Kupriyanova%40austmus.gov.au%7C35d9ab42e3194872841008d66dca6516%7C6ee75868f5d64c8cb4cda3ddce30cfd6%7C0%7C0%7C636817113393360695&sdata=V9KcnWtQwtd92OmR719yPtcPJrG23tHT%2BuOPC0okyU8%3D&reserved=0
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   Inspiring the exploration of nature and 
 cultures

   -----Original
 Message-----
   From: Stephen Thorpe
 [mailto:stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz]
   Sent: Friday, 28 December 2018 1:21 PM
   To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu;
   Elena Kupriyanova <Elena.Kupriyanova at austmus.gov.au>
   Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Type localities
  (was:
   Bionomina 13
 published)

   Not
   quite!
  The type localities
 per se still aren't important  in  the situation you
 describe. What matters is the  distributions of the
 segregate species in the complex.

   Stephen

 --------------------------------------------
   On Fri, 28/12/18, Elena Kupriyanova <Elena.Kupriyanova at austmus.gov.au>
   wrote:

  Subject: Re:
   [Taxacom] Type
 localities
  (was: Bionomina 13 published)
    To:
  "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
   <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
    Received: Friday, 28 December, 2018, 3:15 
 PM

    > to answer
  your
   question, I
 wouldn't
    think type
   localities would
  be of much
 importance at all for  a  common, widespread  uniform
 species.

    Oh,
  really? Except for the most common

  situation in shallow-water
 marine

  invertebrates. Once
 one  actually bothers to look more or  less carefully at
 this  "common, widespread uniform  species" and
 discovers a huge  species complex  beyond  the façade of
 this "common" or even  "cosmopolitan
 species", the importance of the  type  localities
 somehow becomes crystal clear.

    Dr.

 Elena
   Kupriyanova

 Senior
  Research Scientist
    Marine
  Invertebrates

    Associate

 Editor,
    Records of

 the
  Australian Museum

   Australian Museum Research
 Institute
    1
   William
 Street Sydney NSW
  2010

 Australia
    t 61 2
  9320
 6340   m

 61402735679   f 61 2 9320 6059
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