[Taxacom] Type localities (was: Bionomina 13 published)

Sat Dec 29 14:53:48 CST 2018

Stephen,
I totally agree, such a scenario does create a problem. Do you have a better suggestion how to deal with problem?
Lena

Dr. Elena Kupriyanova
Senior Research Scientist
Marine Invertebrates

Associate Editor,
Records of the Australian Museum

Australian Museum Research Institute
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-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen Thorpe [mailto:stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz]
Sent: Sunday, 30 December 2018 7:16 AM
To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu; Elena Kupriyanova <Elena.Kupriyanova at austmus.gov.au>
Subject: RE: [Taxacom] Type localities (was: Bionomina 13 published)

You seem to have skirted around the main problem I suggested, which was 2 or more candidate species in sympatry at the type locality. It is a very real possibility. If you associated a name with a species, based on the type locality, then you assume that the stated type locality is correct and that there is one and only one candidate species present at the type locality! For a real example, a recent revision of the genus Sagola is interesting in that only males can be identified morphologically, but many old types are females. Nevertheless, the authors (Park & Carlton) somehow managed to associate every unique female holotype with a species, based on stated type localities, despite the fact that distributions are very imperfectly known, sympatry is common in the genus, and so many species are known from so few specimens that further new species are very likely (in sympatry with known species). Hence, effectively all the authors did was to make decisions as to which names referred to which species, taking type localities into account, but they might as well have just considered those old (female based) names to be nomina dubia. The level of uncertainty associated with their approach is such that some of the old female based species might not even occur in their assigned type localities, and there is probably in many cases no way to confirm or refute that anyway (it could lead, for example, to a scenario in which the type locality, after more collecting, turns out to be an outlier in the distribution of the species, but then someone will probably suggest range contraction due to climate change!)

Stephen

--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 30/12/18, Elena Kupriyanova <Elena.Kupriyanova at austmus.gov.au> wrote:

 Subject: RE: [Taxacom] Type localities (was: Bionomina 13 published)
 To: "Stephen Thorpe" <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>, "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
 Received: Sunday, 30 December, 2018, 12:07 AM

 Dr. Elena Kupriyanova
 Senior Research Scientist
 Marine Invertebrates

 Associate Editor,
 Records of
 the Australian Museum

 Australian Museum Research Institute
 1 William Street Sydney NSW 2010 Australia  t 61 2 9320 6340   m 61402735679   f 61 2
 9320 6059
 Visit: https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.australianmuseum.net.au&data=02%7C01%7CElena.Kupriyanova%40austmus.gov.au%7C35d9ab42e3194872841008d66dca6516%7C6ee75868f5d64c8cb4cda3ddce30cfd6%7C0%7C0%7C636817113393360695&sdata=V9KcnWtQwtd92OmR719yPtcPJrG23tHT%2BuOPC0okyU8%3D&reserved=0
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 Inspiring the exploration of nature and  cultures

 -----Original Message-----
 From: Stephen Thorpe [mailto:stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz]
 Sent: Friday, 28 December 2018 3:07 PM
 To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu;
 Elena Kupriyanova <Elena.Kupriyanova at austmus.gov.au>
 Subject: RE: [Taxacom] Type localities (was:
 Bionomina 13 published)

 "to find what the name bearing species
 actually is one needs to know the type locality"

 >I disagree! One simply
 needs some way to associate the name with one and only one  species in the complex. Very often, type localities are too  vague to be much use, might be completely wrong, or there  might be more than one species of the complex in the stated  type locality (especially if it is a vague/imprecise type  locality).

 Yes, and what is
 the above mentioned "some way" please?

 > I expect you are
 imagining a scenario in which, say, some previously  recognised species is now considered to be a complex of  ALLOPATRIC cryptic species

 Not necessarily. I think I clearly stated the  scenario I am not imagining, but am familiar with too well -  a huge species complex under a name of a species that is  assumed to be cosmopolitan for a no good reason other than  it  is assumed to be cosmopolitan

 >and you want to know which of those cryptic  species the original name belongs to.

 Yes, don't we all?

 >The type locality MIGHT be a guide (if it  is correct, and if it is precise enough), but it might not  be of any use.

 It is the
 best guide we have, but it MIGHT in some cases be incorrect  or not precise enough indeed

 >If it isn't of any use, then other
 means must be sought to associate the name with a species,  and there are several options.

 Ok, continue please, I really want to know  about those options

 > In
 theory, if you could sequence the holotype, then DNA  matching might do the trick.

 In theory? Have you tried this approach? Yes,  if it exists and if it was not fixed in formalin as most  marine inverts used to be fixed, this the best way.

 >At any rate, type
 localities are not of any major importance: they may be  helpful, but they may not. That's all I'm saying (in  the context of people like Alain Dubious giving them far too  much attention, IMHO)

 I
 cannot see where this (surely unexpected :) conclusion comes  from. If the holotype does not exist, you collect fresh  material as close as possible to the TYPE LOCALITY,  designate a neotype, describe and sequence it. If the  holotype exists, but cannot be sequenced, you collect fresh  material as close as possible to the TYPE LOCALITY,  re-descibe the species based on the type and the fresh  material and sequence the fresh topotypical material. If the  type locality is not precise enough, you make an educated  guess and see above. If you discover several cryptic  sympatric species the type locality, you take your pick  which one you consider as the name bearing species for the  complex. In all cases type locality is of paramount  importance. I am now looking forward to hearing about other  several options mentioned above

 Best,
 Lena

 --------------------------------------------
 On Fri, 28/12/18, Elena Kupriyanova <Elena.Kupriyanova at austmus.gov.au>
 wrote:

  Subject: RE:
 [Taxacom] Type localities (was: Bionomina 13 published)
  To: "Stephen Thorpe" <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>,  "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
 <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
  Received: Friday, 28 December, 2018, 4:22  PM

  Yes, of course,
 ultimately you
  need to know the
 distributions of the species in the  complex. But to figure  that out one has to start with the  distribution of the  name bearing species of the complex and  to find what the  name bearing species actually is one needs  to know the  type locality

  Dr. Elena Kupriyanova
  Senior
 Research Scientist
  Marine Invertebrates

  Associate Editor,
  Records of
  the Australian
 Museum

  Australian Museum
 Research Institute
  1 William Street Sydney
 NSW 2010 Australia  t 61 2 9320 6340   m 61402735679   f
 61 2
  9320 6059
  Visit: https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.australianmuseum.net.au&data=02%7C01%7CElena.Kupriyanova%40austmus.gov.au%7C35d9ab42e3194872841008d66dca6516%7C6ee75868f5d64c8cb4cda3ddce30cfd6%7C0%7C0%7C636817113393360695&sdata=V9KcnWtQwtd92OmR719yPtcPJrG23tHT%2BuOPC0okyU8%3D&reserved=0
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  Inspiring the exploration of nature and  cultures

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Stephen Thorpe [mailto:stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz]
  Sent: Friday, 28 December 2018 1:21 PM
  To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu;
  Elena Kupriyanova <Elena.Kupriyanova at austmus.gov.au>
  Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Type localities
 (was:
  Bionomina 13 published)

  Not
  quite!
 The type localities per se still aren't important  in  the situation you describe. What matters is the  distributions of the segregate species in the complex.

  Stephen

 --------------------------------------------
  On Fri, 28/12/18, Elena Kupriyanova <Elena.Kupriyanova at austmus.gov.au>
  wrote:

 Subject: Re:
  [Taxacom] Type localities
 (was: Bionomina 13 published)
   To:
 "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
  <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
   Received: Friday, 28 December, 2018, 3:15  PM

   > to answer
 your
  question, I wouldn't
   think type
  localities would
 be of much importance at all for  a  common, widespread  uniform species.

   Oh,
 really? Except for the most common

 situation in shallow-water marine

 invertebrates. Once one  actually bothers to look more or  less carefully at this  "common, widespread uniform  species" and discovers a huge  species complex  beyond  the façade of this "common" or even  "cosmopolitan species", the importance of the  type  localities somehow becomes crystal clear.

   Dr.
 Elena
  Kupriyanova
   Senior
 Research Scientist
   Marine
 Invertebrates

   Associate
 Editor,
   Records of
  the
 Australian Museum

  Australian Museum Research Institute
   1
  William Street Sydney NSW
 2010
   Australia
   t 61 2
 9320 6340   m

 61402735679   f 61 2 9320 6059
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