[Taxacom] Type localities (was: Bionomina 13 published)

[Stephen Thorpe]

Geoff, 
I disagree! It is never absolutely certain that a stated type locality is correct (or an inferred one, for that matter). Even if it were, my point is still that there could be two or more species present at the type locality, equally agreeing with the original description. Hence, further uncertainty.
Stephen

--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 28/12/18, Geoff Read <gread at actrix.gen.nz> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Type localities (was: Bionomina 13 published)
 To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
 Received: Friday, 28 December, 2018, 12:51 PM
 
 
 A point type locality is the geographic
 data point where it is absolutely
 certain a species occurs (or did
 occur). As such you can "do things with
 it", say in a biogeographic analysis of
 a genus, whereas other records
 will probably include misleading
 misidentifications. It's not
 nomenclatural, or not just
 nomenclatural or taxonomic.
 
 Geoff
 
 On Fri, December 28, 2018 8:58 am,
 Stephen Thorpe wrote:
 > "Type localities are much more
 important (and to more researchers) when it
 > comes to conservation or attempts
 to rediscover rare species"
 >
 > No, a nomenclatural concept like
 type locality is irrelevant to
 > conservation or attempts to
 rediscover rare species. All you need for that
 > are localities, not type
 localities per se. The only function of a type
 > locality is to establish a link
 between name and species in cases where
 > the holotype specimen and original
 description are both inadequate for
 > that purpose, but it only works
 when there is one and only one candidate
 > species present at the type
 locality. So, most of the time, type
 > localities are irrelevant.
 >
 > Stephen
 >
 >
 --------------------------------------------
 > On Fri, 28/12/18, Kenneth Kinman
 <kinman at hotmail.com>
 wrote:
 >
 >  Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Type
 localities (was: Bionomina 13 published)
 >  To: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
 <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>,
 "Stephen
 > Thorpe" <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
 >  Received: Friday, 28
 December, 2018, 4:31 AM
 >
 >
 >
 >  Hi Stephen,
 >
 >  Â  Â  Â  Â Well that
 is why I said that reason was just a
 >  "bit more important". 
 But if a type locality of
 >  a species or subspecies has
 something unusual in its
 >  environment, then it might
 not really be a separate taxon
 >  worthy of recognition. 
 For instance, something
 >   in the soil might affect
 the coloration of the local
 >  population that might not be
 known to someone comparing
 >  specimens in a museum
 (probably more important in the past,
 >  but less so today if you can
 do molecular testing). Or if a
 >  reviser of subspecies sees
 >   that the type localities of
 two subspecies are fairly close
 >  together (rather than in
 more distant areas of their
 >  distributions), that might
 be an indication that more
 >  collecting is necessary to
 see if they should probably be
 >  merged into a single
 subspecies. 
 >   But this would only be
 marginally important and probably
 >  just to that reviser. 
 Â  Â Â 
 >
 >  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â But
 that is just a minor quibble.  Type
 >  localities are much more
 important (and to more researchers)
 >  when it comes to
 conservation or attempts to rediscover rare
 >  species.  
 >
 >  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â 
 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â 
 >  -------------------Ken
 >
 >
 >
 >  From: Stephen Thorpe
 >  <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
 >
 >  Sent: Wednesday, December
 26, 2018 9:12 PM
 >
 >  To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu;
 Kenneth Kinman
 >
 >  Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Type
 localities (was:
 >  Bionomina 13 published)
 >  Â 
 >
 >
 >  Hi Ken,
 >
 >  Surely your reason why type
 localities may be important for
 >  variable species is actually
 only a reason why distributions
 >  are important? The type
 locality itself just doesn't
 >  seem to me to be very
 useful, except if the description is
 >  inadequate and then only
 >   if there is one and only
 one candidate species present at
 >  the type locality (i.e. then
 we can link the name with a
 >  species, but not with
 certainty due to the theoretical
 >  possibility of sympatry of
 equal candidates).
 >
 >  Cheers,
 >
 >  Stephen
 >
 >
 >
 > 
 --------------------------------------------
 >
 >  On Thu, 27/12/18, Kenneth
 Kinman <kinman at hotmail.com>
 >  wrote:
 >
 >
 >
 >  Â Subject: [Taxacom] Type
 localities (was: Bionomina 13
 >  published)
 >
 >  Â To: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
 >  <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
 >
 >  Â Received: Thursday, 27
 December, 2018, 3:36 PM
 >
 >  Â 
 >
 >  Â Hi Stephen,
 >
 >  Â Â  Â 
 >
 >  Â Â Â  I agree that
 some of this jargon is getting out of
 >  hand
 >
 >  Â (and not particularly
 useful).  Anyway, to answer your
 >
 >  Â question, I wouldn't
 think type localities would be
 >  of
 >
 >  Â much importance at all
 for a common, widespread uniform
 >
 >   species.  The type
 locality of the monarch butterfly
 >  was
 >
 >  Â just "America
 septentrionali".  The type
 >  locality
 >
 >  Â of the neotype is
 Kendall, New York, but who really
 >  cares
 >
 >  Â (except perhaps a
 reviser looking at all the synonyms)?
 >
 >  Â Â  Â  Â Â  Type
 localities are bit more
 >
 >  Â important for variable
 species (with lots of named
 >
 >   subspecies).  And
 even more so for very uncommon or
 >  rare
 >
 >  Â species with restricted
 ranges.  Not only for the
 >
 >  Â conservation of
 endangered species, but for the
 >  rediscovery
 >
 >  Â of species so rare that
 they have been considered
 >  extinct. 
 >
 >  Â However, in certain
 cases, publishing an exact type
 >  locality
 >
 >  Â might be
 counter-productive, especially if specimens
 >  could
 >
 >  Â be monetized (such as
 some rare vertebrates or dinosaur
 >
 >   bones).  In those
 cases, an exact type locality should
 >
 >  Â probably be on a "need
 to know" basis for
 >
 >  Â qualified collectors or
 conservationist scientists.  In
 >  any
 >
 >  Â case, I doubt that
 jargon like onymotopes, much less
 >
 >  Â lectonymotopes, is very
 useful (and more likely to just
 >
 >  Â cause confusion or
 consternation).
 >
 >  Â Â  Â  Â 
 >
 >  Â Â  Â  Â  Â  Â 
 Â  --------------------Ken
 >
 >   P.S.  A type locality
 was perhaps (?) of some
 >
 >  Â help in the rediscovery
 of Cicindela floridana:Â 
 >  https://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1692&context=insectamundi
 >
 >  Â 
 >
 > 
 Â ________________________________
 >
 >  Â From: Taxacom
 >  <taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
 >
 >  Â on behalf of Stephen
 Thorpe
 >  <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
 >
 >  Â Sent: Wednesday,
 December 26, 2018 3:34 PM
 >
 >  Â To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu;
 >
 >  Â Alain Dubois
 >
 >  Â Subject: Re: [Taxacom]
 >
 >  Â Bionomina 13 published
 >
 >  Â 
 >
 >  Â "Onymotopes in
 zoological nomenclature:
 >
 >  Â some additional terms,
 with fixation of a lectonymotope
 >  for
 >
 >  Â Xenopus petersii Bocage,
 1895 (Amphibia, Anura)"
 >
 >  Â 
 >
 >  Â The jargon is getting
 out of
 >
 >  Â hand! The utility of
 type localities
 >
 >  Â ("Onymotopes") only goes
 so far (and not very
 >
 >  Â far)! A type locality is
 just a place where you can go
 >  to
 >
 >  Â find typical specimens
 of a taxon (if they haven't
 >
 >  Â subsequently gone
 extinct there!) It may help to
 >  establish
 >
 >  Â the identity of a poorly
 described species, but it may
 >  not
 >
 >  Â if there are sympatric
 congeners at the locality, all
 >  of
 >
 >  Â which more or less agree
 with the description. The
 >
 >  Â possibility of
 mislabelling means that stated type
 >
 >  Â localities may be
 incorrect, and there may not be any way
 >  to
 >
 >  Â discover the
 mislabelling.
 >
 >  Â 
 >
 >  Â Granted that I haven't
 read the paper (it
 >
 >  Â is paywalled, and I
 don't have access right now),
 >  but
 >
 >  Â can someone please
 explain why type localities are
 >
 >  Â important?
 >
 >  Â 
 >
 >  Â Stephen
 >
 >  Â 
 >
 > 
 Â --------------------------------------------
 >
 >  Â On Thu, 27/12/18, Alain
 Dubois
 >  <adbionomina at gmail.com>
 >
 >  Â wrote:
 >
 >  Â 
 >
 >  Â  Subject: [Taxacom]
 >
 >  Â Bionomina 13 published
 >
 >  Â  To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
 >
 >  Â  Received: Thursday, 27
 December, 2018, 7:51
 >
 >  Â AM
 >
 >  Â 
 >
 >  Â  taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
 >
 >  Â 
 >
 >  Â  Dear Colleagues,
 >
 >  Â 
 >
 >  Â  This is to inform you
 of
 >
 >  Â the
 >
 >  Â  publication of volume
 13 of Bionomina
 >
 >  Â by
 >
 >  Â  Magnolia Press. Here is
 the table of
 >
 >  Â  contents of this
 issue:
 >
 >  Â 
 >
 >    1–27
 >
 >  Â  Familial nomina in
 >
 >  Â harvestmen
 >
 >  Â  (Arachnida, Opiliones)
 >
 >  Â  Adriano B. KURY
 >
 >  Â 
 >
 >    28–36
 >
 >  Â  Reflections on the
 >
 >  Â growing use of
 >
 >  Â  sounds in systematics
 and
 >
 >  Â synecology:
 >
 >  Â  why an acoustic signal
 cannot
 >
 >  Â become an
 >
 >  Â  onomatophore
 >
 >  Â 
 >
 >  Â Laure
 DESUTTER-GRANDCOLAS, Sylvain
 >
 >  Â  HUGEL,
 >
 >  Â Sandra GOUTTE &
 Tony
 >
 >  Â  ROBILLARD
 >
 >  Â 
 >
 >    37–50
 >
 >  Â 
 >
 >  Â Onymotopes in zoological
 nomenclature:
 >
 >  Â  some
 >
 >  Â additional terms, with
 fixation
 >
 >  Â  of a
 >
 >  Â lectonymotope for
 Xenopus petersii
 >
 >  Â  Bocage,
 >
 >  Â 1895 (Amphibia,
 >
 >  Â  Anura)
 >
 >  Â 
 >
 >   Thierry FRÉTEY,
 Maël DEWYNTER &
 >
 >  Â 
 >
 >  Â Annemarie OHLER
 >
 >  Â 
 >
 >    51–64
 >
 >  Â  The Relictus case: it
 is high time that
 >
 >  Â  taxonomists follow the
 Code’s
 >
 >  Â  requirements for
 nomenclatural
 >
 >  Â  availability and
 validity of new zoological
 >
 >  Â  nomina
 >
 >  Â  Alain DUBOIS, Thierry
 >
 >   FRÉTEY &
 >
 >  Â  Annemarie OHLER
 >
 >  Â 
 >
 >    65–68
 >
 >  Â  If
 >
 >  Â you choose not to decide
 you still
 >
 >  Â  have
 >
 >  Â made a choice
 >
 >  Â  Pedro H. PINNA, Daniel
 S.
 >
 >  Â FERNANDES
 >
 >  Â  & Paulo PASSOS
 >
 >  Â 
 >
 >    69–73
 >
 >  Â 
 >
 >  Â Natural history
 collecting and the
 >
 >  Â 
 >
 >  Â arrogance of the modern
 Ark researcher
 >
 >  Â 
 >
 >  Â Spartaco GIPPOLITI
 >
 >  Â 
 >
 >  Â  Best
 >
 >  Â wishes and Season's
 Greetings,
 >
 >  Â 
 >
 >  Â  Alain
 >
 >  Â 
 >
 > 
 Â ____________________________________
 >
 >  Â 
 >
 >  Â  Professeur
 Émérite Alain Dubois
 >
 >    Muséum National
 d'Histoire Naturelle
 >
 >  Â  Institut
 Systématique, Evolution,
 >
 >    Biodiversité (ISYEB)
 - UMR 7205
 >
 >  Â  Reptiles &
 Amphibiens
 >
 >  Â  CP
 >
 >  Â 30
 >
 >  Â  25 rue Cuvier
 >
 >  Â  75005
 >
 >  Â Paris
 >
 >  Â  France
 >
 >  Â 
 >
 >  Â  Adresses e-mail: <sapo421 at gmail.com>,
 >
 >  Â  <adbionomina at gmail.com>,
 >
 >  Â  <
 >
 >  Â  adpeerj at gmail.com>,
 >
 >  Â  <adubois at mnhn.fr>
 >
 >  Â 
 >
 >  Â  Blogs personnels:
 >
 >  Â  Sur Overblog:
 <lherbu.com>
 >
 >  Â  Sur Mediapart: <https://blogs.mediapart.fr/alaindubois-0/blog>
 >
 >  Â 
 >
 >  Â  President, Linz
 Zoocode
 >
 >  Â Committee
 >
 >  Â  <zoologos22 at gmail.com>
 >
 >  Â 
 >
 >  Â  Chief Editor,
 Bionomina
 >
 >  Â  <http://www.mapress.com/bionomina>
 >
 >  Â 
 >
 >  Â  Nomenclature Editor,
 >
 >  Â Zootaxa
 >
 >  Â  <http://www.mapress.com/zootaxa/>
 >
 >  Â 
 >
 >  Â  Academic Editor, PeerJ
 >
 >  Â  <https://peerj.com>
 >
 >  Â 
 >
 >  Â  Website of the journal
 >
 >  Â Alytes
 >
 >  Â  <https://www.alytes-journal.org>
 >
 >  Â 
 >
 >  Â  Website of the journal
 >
 >  Â Dumerilia
 >
 >  Â  <http://dumerilia.wifeo.com>
 >
 >  Â 
 ____________________________________
 >
 >  Â 
 >
 >    “La culture ce
 n’est pas
 >
 >  Â avoir le
 >
 >  Â  cerveau farci de dates,
 de noms ou
 >
 >  Â de
 >
 >    chiffres, c’est la
 qualité du
 >
 >  Â  jugement,
 l’exigence logique, l’appétit
 >
 >  Â de la
 >
 >  Â  preuve, la notion de la
 complexité
 >
 >  Â des
 >
 >  Â  choses et de
 l’arduité des
 >
 >    problèmes.
 C’est l’habitude du
 >
 >  Â  doute, le discernement
 dans la méfiance,
 >
 >  Â la
 >
 >  Â  modestie
 d’opinion, la patience
 >
 >    d’ignorer, la
 certitude qu’on n’a
 >
 >  Â jamais
 >
 >  Â  tout le vrai en
 partage; c’est
 >
 >  Â avoir
 >
 >    l’esprit ferme
 sans l’avoir
 >
 >  Â rigide,
 >
 >    c’est être
 armé contre le flou
 >
 >  Â et
 >
 >  Â  aussi contre la fausse
 précision,
 >
 >   c’est
 >
 >  Â  refuser tous les
 fanatismes et
 >
 >    jusqu’à ceux
 qui s’autorisent de la
 >
 >  Â raison;
 >
 >    c’est suspecter
 les
 >
 >  Â dogmatismes
 >
 >  Â  officiels mais sans
 profit pour
 >
 >  Â les
 >
 >    charlatans, c’est
 révérer le
 >
 >   génie
 >
 >  Â  mais sans en faire une
 idole,
 >
 >   c’est
 >
 >    toujours préférer
 ce qui est à 
 >
 >  Â ce
 >
 >    qu’on
 préférerait qui fût.”
 >
 >  Â  (Jean Rostand, Le droit
 d’être
 >
 >  Â  naturaliste, 1963).
 >
 >  Â 
 >
 > 
 Â ____________________________________
 >
 >  Â 
 >
 > 
 Â _______________________________________________
 >
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 >
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 >  Â 
 >
 >  Â  Nurturing Nuance while
 >
 >  Â Assaulting
 >
 >  Â  Ambiguity for 31 Some
 Years,
 >
 >  Â 1987-2018.
 >
 >  Â 
 >
 > 
 Â _______________________________________________
 >
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 to 1992 may be
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 31 Some Years, 1987-2018.
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 --
 Geoffrey B. Read, Ph.D.
 Wellington, NEW ZEALAND
 gread at actrix.gen.nz
 
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