[Taxacom] taxonomic "vandalism?"

Sun Oct 8 02:14:26 CDT 2017

No disagreement with that. What I disagree with is the argument that we shouldn't even try because it's always been like this.
Wolfgang

Sent from my iPad

On Oct 8, 2017, at 02:31, Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz> wrote:

>> Shouldn't the fact that this is a long-standing problem motivate us to find a solution?
>
> Perhaps, BUT many a dodgy agenda (e.g. to reserve everything for oneself and friends) has been pushed through under the pretext of "fixing" some "problem". In other words, the devil is in the details, i.e. it all depends on the exact details of the "solution". If it just makes you and your close colleagues more powerful, at the expense of others, then it isn't a good solution. The hard bit is to avoid collateral damage while trying to stop the likes of Hoser.
>
> Stephen
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Sat, 7/10/17, Wolfgang Wuster <w.wuster at bangor.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] taxonomic "vandalism?"
> To: "Michael A. Ivie" <mivie at montana.edu>, "Doug Yanega" <dyanega at ucr.edu>, "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Received: Saturday, 7 October, 2017, 10:20 AM
>
> Mike,
>
>
> Shouldn't the fact that this is a
> long-standing problem motivate us to find a solution?
>
>
> Wolfgang
>
>
> --
> Dr. Wolfgang Wüster  -
> Senior Lecturer
> School of Biological Sciences
> Bangor University
> Environment Centre Wales
> Bangor LL57  2UW
> Wales, UK
>
> Tel: +44 1248 382301
> Fax: +44 1248 382569
> E-mail: w.wuster at bangor.ac.uk
> http://mefgl.bangor.ac.uk/staff/wuster.php
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Michael A. Ivie <mivie at montana.edu>
> Sent: 06 October 2017 17:39
> To: Wolfgang Wuster; Doug Yanega; taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] taxonomic
> "vandalism?"
>
>
> Wolfgang,
>
>
> Of course I can see that what you
> describe is difficult to deal with, and something we should
> all try to avoid, but not that it is the end of the
> world.  Marice Pic described 38,000 species, mostly in
> his two privately published journals, with virtually never
> an illustration, the types in his personal collection
> (horribly curated), and descriptions of 2-6 lines, often
> without even mentioning what family they belonged to. So for
> shear scale, you have a minor problem relatively.  Yet,
> we deal with Pic's names.  And with Thomas Lincoln
> Casey's (same situation but with only 17,000 names and
> better descriptions).  Why is your situation so
> special?  Poor taxonomists are there so we have
> something to curse at the bar, but they will always be
> around.  You give him so much attention, I suspect it
> actually encourages him to be outrageous?
>
>
> Mike
>
> On 10/6/2017 10:05 AM, Wolfgang Wuster
> wrote:
> Mike,
>
> I don’t think you fully appreciate
> the multifaceted nature of the problem, which involves a
> complex interplay of different combinations of poor ethics,
> poor quality, and the sheer volume of material involved.
>
> First, there *have* been multiple
> instances of taxa being hastily “described” that others
> were intending to name, and where there was good reason to
> believe that they were. Examples include multiple species
> described based on published in-depth phylogeographic
> studies, often very shortly after publication of the
> phylogeographic study, and even cases where the aim of
> scooping someone else was expicitly stated. So there are
> certainly multiple instances of practices you term as
> “immoral in my view, and against the Recommendations that
> follow the Code”, although they make up a minority of the
> total number of names. To go back to your initial point when
> you started the topic, you could of course argue that
> publishing *any* phylogeographic study while leaving
> potential new species unnamed is careless or negligent.
> Personally, I cannot reconcile myself with the view that we
> should let fear of these unethical practices dictate how we
> write our papers or communicate in science.
>
> For the rest, the vandalism problem
> resides more in the (lack of) quality and the quantity of
> output.
>
> Of course we all use range maps and
> published phylogenies to direct our research- that’s what
> they are there for. Spot an allopatric distribution and
> think there might be something to it? Great – hit a
> museum, collect some samples, run some sequences –
> whatever – and write it up with due methods and materials
> and results. And if there is competition between researchers
> working at a reasonable level of quality, then the first in
> print wins - not ideal, but we’ve all seen it happen
> without it being a big deal or there being accusations of
> vandalism. Heck, I recently reviewed a manuscript describing
> a species I had planned to describe myself, but since the
> authors had gathered better material than I had access
> to and got on with it when I hadn’t, I cheered it on and
> it’s just been published – good on them. Believe it or
> not, I do live in the real world.
>
> At the risk of repeating the obvious at
> nauseam, in the contested cases, we see “descriptions”
> with the common feature of no M&M, a never-examined type
> randomly selected from a museum catalogue and entirely
> unsubstantiated claims of purported diagnostic characters.
> No actual sources of evidence, no specimens examined, and of
> course no DNA data. In other cases, every species in what
> was a single genus is given its own genus name, presumably
> in the expectation that one or other will eventually turn
> out to be available. And so on. Now multiply by many
> hundred. Those are not “taxonomic insights … later
> validated by re-examination of the data”, as you put it.
> And therefore, I do not accept that denouncing the de facto
> validation of these practices by the Code is simply a
> question of “being mad at someone for getting there
> first”, or, where it’s done on the industrial scale seen
> in herpetology, “a tempest in a teapot”.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Wolfgang
>
> --
> Dr. Wolfgang Wüster  -
> Senior Lecturer
> School of Biological Sciences
> Bangor University
> Environment Centre Wales
> Bangor LL57  2UW
> Wales, UK
>
> Tel: +44 1248 382301
> Fax: +44 1248 382569
> E-mail: w.wuster at bangor.ac.uk<mailto:w.wuster at bangor.ac.uk>
> http://mefgl.bangor.ac.uk/staff/wuster.php
>
> From: Michael A. Ivie [mailto:mivie at montana.edu]
> Sent: 06 October 2017 15:50
> To: Wolfgang Wuster <w.wuster at bangor.ac.uk><mailto:w.wuster at bangor.ac.uk>;
> Doug Yanega <dyanega at ucr.edu><mailto:dyanega at ucr.edu>;
> taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] taxonomic
> "vandalism?"
>
>
> Now Wolfgang, to your second
> point.  As I  have followed this issue over the
> last few years, it was my understanding that the "vandal"
> was taking published data and naming taxa that were shown in
> such things as phylogenies and distribution maps, and using
> them to name taxa that the original authors were intending
> to name with the same data.  What you describe is
> simply taxonomic insight leading to new names.  What
> you say is "Most" of what is done is what we all do - take a
> new look at data and describe the new stuff, where is the
> allegation of "theft" in this?   The fact that you say
> "some turn out to be the oldest available names when someone
> else later does the work leading to recognition of the taxon
> as valid" shows clearly that those taxonomic insights, at
> least, are later validated by reexamination of the
> data.    Being mad that someone got there first is
> just being ridiculous.
>
>
>
> Everyone in our business is somewhere
> on the scale of perfect to terrible when it comes to
> creating synonyms.  I certainly have named things that
> turned out to be synonyms, but (so far) no one has called me
> a "vandal."
>
>
>
> So, my original point was based on the
> apparent misunderstanding that this charge of "vandalism"
> was because of using published or publicized data that were
> going to be used for a later nomenclatural act to "scoop"
> the original authors.  This is immoral in my view, and
> against the Recommendations that follow the Code.  If
> this is not the case in the majority of cases, this is just
> a tempest in a teapot over a person who does not conform to
> our ideas of "best practices."
>
>
>
> Mike
>
> On 10/6/2017 1:16 AM, Wolfgang Wuster
> wrote:
>
> Two things:
>
>
>
> First, I don't think there is a neutral
> position here.
>
> To give an analogy: if I fall asleep in
> a public place with my wallet lying unsecured next to me,
> then I am doing something very stupid. However, if someone
> takes the wallet, criminal law would still consider them a
> thief, with all the usual penalties. The Code would let them
> keep the wallet. Neither of those is a neutral position.
>
>
>
> Second, I don't think it's fair to say
> that most of the contentious descriptions are based on data
> carelessly left lying around by herpetologists. Most of
> these "descriptions" were pre-emptive and based on things
> like allopatric distributions in field guides, mitochondrial
> phylogeographic studies (neither of which by themselves
> justify new species descriptions) or weakly supported nodes
> in major supermatrix phylogenies (for genera). Many of the
> resulting names are of course just synonyms, but some turn
> out to be the oldest available names when someone else later
> does the work leading to recognition of the taxon as valid.
> In most of these cases, there is no case to be made that
> earlier workers were negligent, or even overly slow, in
> naming something: the name preceded the evidence.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
>
> Wolfgang
>
>
> --
> Dr. Wolfgang Wüster  -
> Senior Lecturer
> School of Biological Sciences
> Bangor University
> Environment Centre Wales
> Bangor LL57  2UW
> Wales, UK
>
> Tel: +44 1248 382301
> Fax: +44 1248 382569
> E-mail: w.wuster at bangor.ac.uk<mailto:w.wuster at bangor.ac.uk>
> http://mefgl.bangor.ac.uk/staff/wuster.php
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu><mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> on behalf of Ivie, Michael <mivie at montana.edu><mailto:mivie at montana.edu>
> Sent: 06 October 2017 02:28
> To: Doug Yanega; taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] taxonomic
> "vandalism?"
>
>
> Not even close, Doug, what you quote
> out of context is not part of the Code, see the intro to the
> Appendeces.  The Code itself is neutral, and applies
> equally to any situation, immoral or not.
>
> Mike
> __________________________________________________
> Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
>
> NOTE: two addresses with different Zip
> Codes depending on carriers
>
> US Post Office Address:
> Montana Entomology Collection
> Marsh Labs, Room 50
> PO Box 173145
> Montana State University
> Bozeman, MT 59717
> USA
>
> UPS, FedEx, DHL Address:
> Montana Entomology Collection
> Marsh Labs, Room 50
> 1911 West Lincoln Street
> Montana State University
> Bozeman, MT 59718
> USA
>
> (406) 994-4610 (voice)
> (406) 994-6029 (FAX)
> mivie at montana.edu<mailto:mivie at montana.edu>
>
>
> ________________________________________
> From: Taxacom [taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>]
> on behalf of Doug Yanega [dyanega at ucr.edu<mailto:dyanega at ucr.edu>]
> Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2017 6:47
> PM
> To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] taxonomic
> "vandalism?"
>
> On 10/5/17 5:20 PM, Michael A. Ivie
> wrote:
>> Blaming the Code is equivalent to
> blaming the victim.  The Code is
>> equally available to both the
> "victim" and the "vandal."  It is
>> neutral and blameless.
>>
> Actually, no, the Code is not neutral
> about this; it does take a clear
> stance on this exact issue, in Appendix
> A:
>
> "2. A zoologist should not publish a
> new name if he or she has reason to
> believe that another person has already
> recognized the same taxon and
> intends to establish a name for it (or
> that the taxon is to be named in
> a posthumous work). A zoologist in such
> a position should communicate
> with the other person (or their
> representatives) and only feel free to
> establish a new name if that person has
> failed to do so in a reasonable
> period (not less than a year)."
>
> Stealing other's intellectual property
> may not make your name
> unavailable, but it DOES violate the
> explicit text of the Code, above.
> When we asked for opinions from the
> taxonomic community whether this
> passage and the others in Appendix A
> should be made part of the
> legislative text (e.g., replace the
> term "should not" with "must not",
> and make availability contingent upon
> compliance), we got a lukewarm
> response from a handful of people.
> Evidently, and counterintuitively,
> taxonomists don't care enough about
> intellectual property to WANT any
> rules protecting it (or, at least, not
> enough to write letters
> indicating their concern). Otherwise,
> they should have written letters
> to the Commission when we openly
> pleaded with them to do so, about this
> EXACT problem, just a few years ago.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> --
> Doug Yanega      Dept.
> of Entomology       Entomology Research
> Museum
> Univ. of California, Riverside, CA
> 92521-0314     skype: dyanega
> phone: (951) 827-4315 (disclaimer:
> opinions are mine, not UCR's)
>
>     http://cache.ucr.edu/~heraty/yanega.html<http://cache.ucr.edu/%7Eheraty/yanega.html>
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> California, Riverside<http://cache.ucr.edu/%7Eheraty/yanega.html>
> cache.ucr.edu
> Home of "Curious Scientific Names",
> along with assorted links to entomology, ecology,
> biodiversity, reference sites, utilities, and a little
> entertainment.
>
>
>
>    "There are some enterprises in
> which a careful disorderliness
>          is the
> true method" - Herman Melville, Moby Dick, Chap. 82
>
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>
>
> Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
>
>
>
> NOTE: two addresses with different Zip
> Codes depending on carriers
>
>
>
> US Post Office Address:
>
> Montana Entomology Collection
>
> Marsh Labs, Room 50
>
> PO Box 173145
>
> Montana State University
>
> Bozeman, MT 59717
>
> USA
>
>
>
> UPS, FedEx, DHL Address:
>
> Montana Entomology Collection
>
> Marsh Labs, Room 50
>
> 1911 West Lincoln Street
>
> Montana State University
>
> Bozeman, MT 59718
>
> USA
>
>
>
>
>
> (406) 994-4610 (voice)
>
> (406) 994-6029 (FAX)
>
> mivie at montana.edu<mailto:mivie at montana.edu>
>
>
>
> Rhif Elusen Gofrestredig 1141565 -
> Registered Charity No. 1141565
>
> Gall y neges e-bost hon, ac unrhyw
> atodiadau a anfonwyd gyda hi, gynnwys deunydd cyfrinachol ac
> wedi eu bwriadu i'w defnyddio'n unig gan y sawl y cawsant eu
> cyfeirio ato (atynt). Os ydych wedi derbyn y neges e-bost
> hon trwy gamgymeriad, rhowch wybod i'r anfonwr ar unwaith a
> dilewch y neges. Os na fwriadwyd anfon y neges atoch chi,
> rhaid i chi beidio a defnyddio, cadw neu ddatgelu unrhyw
> wybodaeth a gynhwysir ynddi. Mae unrhyw farn neu safbwynt yn
> eiddo i'r sawl a'i hanfonodd yn unig ac nid yw o anghenraid
> yn cynrychioli barn Prifysgol Bangor. Nid yw Prifysgol
> Bangor yn gwarantu bod y neges e-bost hon neu unrhyw
> atodiadau yn rhydd rhag firysau neu 100% yn ddiogel. Oni bai
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> e-bost, nid bwriad y neges e-bost hon yw ffurfio contract
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>
> This email and any attachments may
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> Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
>
> NOTE: two addresses with different Zip
> Codes depending on carriers
>
> US Post Office Address:
> Montana Entomology Collection
> Marsh Labs, Room 50
> PO Box 173145
> Montana State University
> Bozeman, MT 59717
> USA
>
> UPS, FedEx, DHL Address:
> Montana Entomology Collection
> Marsh Labs, Room 50
> 1911 West Lincoln Street
> Montana State University
> Bozeman, MT 59718
> USA
>
>
> (406) 994-4610 (voice)
> (406) 994-6029 (FAX)
> mivie at montana.edu<mailto:mivie at montana.edu>
>
>
>
>
> Rhif Elusen Gofrestredig 1141565 -
> Registered Charity No. 1141565
>
> Gall y neges e-bost hon, ac unrhyw
> atodiadau a anfonwyd gyda hi, gynnwys deunydd cyfrinachol ac
> wedi eu bwriadu i'w defnyddio'n unig gan y sawl y cawsant eu
> cyfeirio ato (atynt). Os ydych wedi derbyn y neges e-bost
> hon trwy gamgymeriad, rhowch wybod i'r anfonwr ar unwaith a
> dilewch y neges. Os na fwriadwyd anfon y neges atoch chi,
> rhaid i chi beidio a defnyddio, cadw neu ddatgelu unrhyw
> wybodaeth a gynhwysir ynddi. Mae unrhyw farn neu safbwynt yn
> eiddo i'r sawl a'i hanfonodd yn unig ac nid yw o anghenraid
> yn cynrychioli barn Prifysgol Bangor. Nid yw Prifysgol
> Bangor yn gwarantu bod y neges e-bost hon neu unrhyw
> atodiadau yn rhydd rhag firysau neu 100% yn ddiogel. Oni bai
> fod hyn wedi ei ddatgan yn uniongyrchol yn nhestun yr
> e-bost, nid bwriad y neges e-bost hon yw ffurfio contract
> rhwymol - mae rhestr o lofnodwyr awdurdodedig ar gael o
> Swyddfa Cyllid Prifysgol Bangor.
>
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> Nurturing Nuance while Assaulting
> Ambiguity for 30 Some Years, 1987-2017.
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Rhif Elusen Gofrestredig 1141565 - Registered Charity No. 1141565

Gall y neges e-bost hon, ac unrhyw atodiadau a anfonwyd gyda hi, gynnwys deunydd cyfrinachol ac wedi eu bwriadu i'w defnyddio'n unig gan y sawl y cawsant eu cyfeirio ato (atynt). Os ydych wedi derbyn y neges e-bost hon trwy gamgymeriad, rhowch wybod i'r anfonwr ar unwaith a dilewch y neges. Os na fwriadwyd anfon y neges atoch chi, rhaid i chi beidio a defnyddio, cadw neu ddatgelu unrhyw wybodaeth a gynhwysir ynddi. Mae unrhyw farn neu safbwynt yn eiddo i'r sawl a'i hanfonodd yn unig ac nid yw o anghenraid yn cynrychioli barn Prifysgol Bangor. Nid yw Prifysgol Bangor yn gwarantu bod y neges e-bost hon neu unrhyw atodiadau yn rhydd rhag firysau neu 100% yn ddiogel. Oni bai fod hyn wedi ei ddatgan yn uniongyrchol yn nhestun yr e-bost, nid bwriad y neges e-bost hon yw ffurfio contract rhwymol - mae rhestr o lofnodwyr awdurdodedig ar gael o Swyddfa Cyllid Prifysgol Bangor.

This email and any attachments may contain confidential material and is solely for the use of the intended recipient(s). If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this email. If you are not the intended recipient(s), you must not use, retain or disclose any information contained in this email. Any views or opinions are solely those of the sender and do not necessarily represent those of Bangor University. Bangor University does not guarantee that this email or any attachments are free from viruses or 100% secure. Unless expressly stated in the body of the text of the email, this email is not intended to form a binding contract - a list of authorised signatories is available from the Bangor University Finance Office.