[Taxacom] taxonomic "vandalism?"

Sat Oct 7 20:26:48 CDT 2017

> Shouldn't the fact that this is a long-standing problem motivate us to find a solution?

Perhaps, BUT many a dodgy agenda (e.g. to reserve everything for oneself and friends) has been pushed through under the pretext of "fixing" some "problem". In other words, the devil is in the details, i.e. it all depends on the exact details of the "solution". If it just makes you and your close colleagues more powerful, at the expense of others, then it isn't a good solution. The hard bit is to avoid collateral damage while trying to stop the likes of Hoser.

Stephen

--------------------------------------------
On Sat, 7/10/17, Wolfgang Wuster <w.wuster at bangor.ac.uk> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [Taxacom] taxonomic "vandalism?"
 To: "Michael A. Ivie" <mivie at montana.edu>, "Doug Yanega" <dyanega at ucr.edu>, "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
 Received: Saturday, 7 October, 2017, 10:20 AM

 Mike,

 Shouldn't the fact that this is a
 long-standing problem motivate us to find a solution?

 Wolfgang

 --
 Dr. Wolfgang Wüster  - 
 Senior Lecturer
 School of Biological Sciences
 Bangor University
 Environment Centre Wales
 Bangor LL57  2UW
 Wales, UK

 Tel: +44 1248 382301
 Fax: +44 1248 382569
 E-mail: w.wuster at bangor.ac.uk
 http://mefgl.bangor.ac.uk/staff/wuster.php

 ________________________________
 From: Michael A. Ivie <mivie at montana.edu>
 Sent: 06 October 2017 17:39
 To: Wolfgang Wuster; Doug Yanega; taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
 Subject: Re: [Taxacom] taxonomic
 "vandalism?"

 Wolfgang,

 Of course I can see that what you
 describe is difficult to deal with, and something we should
 all try to avoid, but not that it is the end of the
 world.  Marice Pic described 38,000 species, mostly in
 his two privately published journals, with virtually never
 an illustration, the types in his personal collection
 (horribly curated), and descriptions of 2-6 lines, often
 without even mentioning what family they belonged to. So for
 shear scale, you have a minor problem relatively.  Yet,
 we deal with Pic's names.  And with Thomas Lincoln
 Casey's (same situation but with only 17,000 names and
 better descriptions).  Why is your situation so
 special?  Poor taxonomists are there so we have
 something to curse at the bar, but they will always be
 around.  You give him so much attention, I suspect it
 actually encourages him to be outrageous?

 Mike

 On 10/6/2017 10:05 AM, Wolfgang Wuster
 wrote:
 Mike,

 I don’t think you fully appreciate
 the multifaceted nature of the problem, which involves a
 complex interplay of different combinations of poor ethics,
 poor quality, and the sheer volume of material involved.

 First, there *have* been multiple
 instances of taxa being hastily “described” that others
 were intending to name, and where there was good reason to
 believe that they were. Examples include multiple species
 described based on published in-depth phylogeographic
 studies, often very shortly after publication of the
 phylogeographic study, and even cases where the aim of
 scooping someone else was expicitly stated. So there are
 certainly multiple instances of practices you term as
 “immoral in my view, and against the Recommendations that
 follow the Code”, although they make up a minority of the
 total number of names. To go back to your initial point when
 you started the topic, you could of course argue that
 publishing *any* phylogeographic study while leaving
 potential new species unnamed is careless or negligent.
 Personally, I cannot reconcile myself with the view that we
 should let fear of these unethical practices dictate how we
 write our papers or communicate in science.

 For the rest, the vandalism problem
 resides more in the (lack of) quality and the quantity of
 output.

 Of course we all use range maps and
 published phylogenies to direct our research- that’s what
 they are there for. Spot an allopatric distribution and
 think there might be something to it? Great – hit a
 museum, collect some samples, run some sequences –
 whatever – and write it up with due methods and materials
 and results. And if there is competition between researchers
 working at a reasonable level of quality, then the first in
 print wins - not ideal, but we’ve all seen it happen
 without it being a big deal or there being accusations of
 vandalism. Heck, I recently reviewed a manuscript describing
 a species I had planned to describe myself, but since the
 authors had gathered better material than I had access 
 to and got on with it when I hadn’t, I cheered it on and
 it’s just been published – good on them. Believe it or
 not, I do live in the real world.

 At the risk of repeating the obvious at
 nauseam, in the contested cases, we see “descriptions”
 with the common feature of no M&M, a never-examined type
 randomly selected from a museum catalogue and entirely
 unsubstantiated claims of purported diagnostic characters.
 No actual sources of evidence, no specimens examined, and of
 course no DNA data. In other cases, every species in what
 was a single genus is given its own genus name, presumably
 in the expectation that one or other will eventually turn
 out to be available. And so on. Now multiply by many
 hundred. Those are not “taxonomic insights … later
 validated by re-examination of the data”, as you put it.
 And therefore, I do not accept that denouncing the de facto
 validation of these practices by the Code is simply a
 question of “being mad at someone for getting there
 first”, or, where it’s done on the industrial scale seen
 in herpetology, “a tempest in a teapot”.

 Cheers,

 Wolfgang

 --
 Dr. Wolfgang Wüster  - 
 Senior Lecturer
 School of Biological Sciences
 Bangor University
 Environment Centre Wales
 Bangor LL57  2UW
 Wales, UK

 Tel: +44 1248 382301
 Fax: +44 1248 382569
 E-mail: w.wuster at bangor.ac.uk<mailto:w.wuster at bangor.ac.uk>
 http://mefgl.bangor.ac.uk/staff/wuster.php

 From: Michael A. Ivie [mailto:mivie at montana.edu]
 Sent: 06 October 2017 15:50
 To: Wolfgang Wuster <w.wuster at bangor.ac.uk><mailto:w.wuster at bangor.ac.uk>;
 Doug Yanega <dyanega at ucr.edu><mailto:dyanega at ucr.edu>;
 taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
 Subject: Re: [Taxacom] taxonomic
 "vandalism?"

 Now Wolfgang, to your second
 point.  As I  have followed this issue over the
 last few years, it was my understanding that the "vandal"
 was taking published data and naming taxa that were shown in
 such things as phylogenies and distribution maps, and using
 them to name taxa that the original authors were intending
 to name with the same data.  What you describe is
 simply taxonomic insight leading to new names.  What
 you say is "Most" of what is done is what we all do - take a
 new look at data and describe the new stuff, where is the
 allegation of "theft" in this?   The fact that you say
 "some turn out to be the oldest available names when someone
 else later does the work leading to recognition of the taxon
 as valid" shows clearly that those taxonomic insights, at
 least, are later validated by reexamination of the
 data.    Being mad that someone got there first is
 just being ridiculous.

 Everyone in our business is somewhere
 on the scale of perfect to terrible when it comes to
 creating synonyms.  I certainly have named things that
 turned out to be synonyms, but (so far) no one has called me
 a "vandal."

 So, my original point was based on the
 apparent misunderstanding that this charge of "vandalism"
 was because of using published or publicized data that were
 going to be used for a later nomenclatural act to "scoop"
 the original authors.  This is immoral in my view, and
 against the Recommendations that follow the Code.  If
 this is not the case in the majority of cases, this is just
 a tempest in a teapot over a person who does not conform to
 our ideas of "best practices."

 Mike

 On 10/6/2017 1:16 AM, Wolfgang Wuster
 wrote:

 Two things:

 First, I don't think there is a neutral
 position here.

 To give an analogy: if I fall asleep in
 a public place with my wallet lying unsecured next to me,
 then I am doing something very stupid. However, if someone
 takes the wallet, criminal law would still consider them a
 thief, with all the usual penalties. The Code would let them
 keep the wallet. Neither of those is a neutral position.

 Second, I don't think it's fair to say
 that most of the contentious descriptions are based on data
 carelessly left lying around by herpetologists. Most of
 these "descriptions" were pre-emptive and based on things
 like allopatric distributions in field guides, mitochondrial
 phylogeographic studies (neither of which by themselves
 justify new species descriptions) or weakly supported nodes
 in major supermatrix phylogenies (for genera). Many of the
 resulting names are of course just synonyms, but some turn
 out to be the oldest available names when someone else later
 does the work leading to recognition of the taxon as valid.
 In most of these cases, there is no case to be made that
 earlier workers were negligent, or even overly slow, in
 naming something: the name preceded the evidence.

 Cheers,

 Wolfgang

 --
 Dr. Wolfgang Wüster  - 
 Senior Lecturer
 School of Biological Sciences
 Bangor University
 Environment Centre Wales
 Bangor LL57  2UW
 Wales, UK

 Tel: +44 1248 382301
 Fax: +44 1248 382569
 E-mail: w.wuster at bangor.ac.uk<mailto:w.wuster at bangor.ac.uk>
 http://mefgl.bangor.ac.uk/staff/wuster.php

 ________________________________
 From: Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu><mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
 on behalf of Ivie, Michael <mivie at montana.edu><mailto:mivie at montana.edu>
 Sent: 06 October 2017 02:28
 To: Doug Yanega; taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
 Subject: Re: [Taxacom] taxonomic
 "vandalism?"

 Not even close, Doug, what you quote
 out of context is not part of the Code, see the intro to the
 Appendeces.  The Code itself is neutral, and applies
 equally to any situation, immoral or not.

 Mike
 __________________________________________________
 Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.

 NOTE: two addresses with different Zip
 Codes depending on carriers

 US Post Office Address:
 Montana Entomology Collection
 Marsh Labs, Room 50
 PO Box 173145
 Montana State University
 Bozeman, MT 59717
 USA

 UPS, FedEx, DHL Address:
 Montana Entomology Collection
 Marsh Labs, Room 50
 1911 West Lincoln Street
 Montana State University
 Bozeman, MT 59718
 USA

 (406) 994-4610 (voice)
 (406) 994-6029 (FAX)
 mivie at montana.edu<mailto:mivie at montana.edu>

 ________________________________________
 From: Taxacom [taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>]
 on behalf of Doug Yanega [dyanega at ucr.edu<mailto:dyanega at ucr.edu>]
 Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2017 6:47
 PM
 To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu<mailto:taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
 Subject: Re: [Taxacom] taxonomic
 "vandalism?"

 On 10/5/17 5:20 PM, Michael A. Ivie
 wrote:
 > Blaming the Code is equivalent to
 blaming the victim.  The Code is
 > equally available to both the
 "victim" and the "vandal."  It is
 > neutral and blameless.
 >
 Actually, no, the Code is not neutral
 about this; it does take a clear
 stance on this exact issue, in Appendix
 A:

 "2. A zoologist should not publish a
 new name if he or she has reason to
 believe that another person has already
 recognized the same taxon and
 intends to establish a name for it (or
 that the taxon is to be named in
 a posthumous work). A zoologist in such
 a position should communicate
 with the other person (or their
 representatives) and only feel free to
 establish a new name if that person has
 failed to do so in a reasonable
 period (not less than a year)."

 Stealing other's intellectual property
 may not make your name
 unavailable, but it DOES violate the
 explicit text of the Code, above.
 When we asked for opinions from the
 taxonomic community whether this
 passage and the others in Appendix A
 should be made part of the
 legislative text (e.g., replace the
 term "should not" with "must not",
 and make availability contingent upon
 compliance), we got a lukewarm
 response from a handful of people.
 Evidently, and counterintuitively,
 taxonomists don't care enough about
 intellectual property to WANT any
 rules protecting it (or, at least, not
 enough to write letters
 indicating their concern). Otherwise,
 they should have written letters
 to the Commission when we openly
 pleaded with them to do so, about this
 EXACT problem, just a few years ago.

 Sincerely,

 --
 Doug Yanega      Dept.
 of Entomology       Entomology Research
 Museum
 Univ. of California, Riverside, CA
 92521-0314     skype: dyanega
 phone: (951) 827-4315 (disclaimer:
 opinions are mine, not UCR's)

     http://cache.ucr.edu/~heraty/yanega.html<http://cache.ucr.edu/%7Eheraty/yanega.html>
 Doug's Personal Page - University of
 California, Riverside<http://cache.ucr.edu/%7Eheraty/yanega.html>
 cache.ucr.edu
 Home of "Curious Scientific Names",
 along with assorted links to entomology, ecology,
 biodiversity, reference sites, utilities, and a little
 entertainment.

    "There are some enterprises in
 which a careful disorderliness
          is the
 true method" - Herman Melville, Moby Dick, Chap. 82

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 NOTE: two addresses with different Zip
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 Marsh Labs, Room 50

 PO Box 173145

 Montana State University

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 Marsh Labs, Room 50

 1911 West Lincoln Street

 Montana State University

 Bozeman, MT 59718

 USA

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 Rhif Elusen Gofrestredig 1141565 -
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 Gall y neges e-bost hon, ac unrhyw
 atodiadau a anfonwyd gyda hi, gynnwys deunydd cyfrinachol ac
 wedi eu bwriadu i'w defnyddio'n unig gan y sawl y cawsant eu
 cyfeirio ato (atynt). Os ydych wedi derbyn y neges e-bost
 hon trwy gamgymeriad, rhowch wybod i'r anfonwr ar unwaith a
 dilewch y neges. Os na fwriadwyd anfon y neges atoch chi,
 rhaid i chi beidio a defnyddio, cadw neu ddatgelu unrhyw
 wybodaeth a gynhwysir ynddi. Mae unrhyw farn neu safbwynt yn
 eiddo i'r sawl a'i hanfonodd yn unig ac nid yw o anghenraid
 yn cynrychioli barn Prifysgol Bangor. Nid yw Prifysgol
 Bangor yn gwarantu bod y neges e-bost hon neu unrhyw
 atodiadau yn rhydd rhag firysau neu 100% yn ddiogel. Oni bai
 fod hyn wedi ei ddatgan yn uniongyrchol yn nhestun yr
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 NOTE: two addresses with different Zip
 Codes depending on carriers

 US Post Office Address:
 Montana Entomology Collection
 Marsh Labs, Room 50
 PO Box 173145
 Montana State University
 Bozeman, MT 59717
 USA

 UPS, FedEx, DHL Address:
 Montana Entomology Collection
 Marsh Labs, Room 50
 1911 West Lincoln Street
 Montana State University
 Bozeman, MT 59718
 USA

 (406) 994-4610 (voice)
 (406) 994-6029 (FAX)
 mivie at montana.edu<mailto:mivie at montana.edu>

 Rhif Elusen Gofrestredig 1141565 -
 Registered Charity No. 1141565

 Gall y neges e-bost hon, ac unrhyw
 atodiadau a anfonwyd gyda hi, gynnwys deunydd cyfrinachol ac
 wedi eu bwriadu i'w defnyddio'n unig gan y sawl y cawsant eu
 cyfeirio ato (atynt). Os ydych wedi derbyn y neges e-bost
 hon trwy gamgymeriad, rhowch wybod i'r anfonwr ar unwaith a
 dilewch y neges. Os na fwriadwyd anfon y neges atoch chi,
 rhaid i chi beidio a defnyddio, cadw neu ddatgelu unrhyw
 wybodaeth a gynhwysir ynddi. Mae unrhyw farn neu safbwynt yn
 eiddo i'r sawl a'i hanfonodd yn unig ac nid yw o anghenraid
 yn cynrychioli barn Prifysgol Bangor. Nid yw Prifysgol
 Bangor yn gwarantu bod y neges e-bost hon neu unrhyw
 atodiadau yn rhydd rhag firysau neu 100% yn ddiogel. Oni bai
 fod hyn wedi ei ddatgan yn uniongyrchol yn nhestun yr
 e-bost, nid bwriad y neges e-bost hon yw ffurfio contract
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