[Taxacom] Paywall our taxonomic tidbit
Stephen Thorpe
stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz
Thu Jan 14 20:02:48 CST 2016
Mike said: >I don't really think that was sarcasm, you just said that after the fact to cover up after it was explained to you<
Oh, you are a one, Mike! So, you are claiming that I said something which could have been intended as sarcasm, but didn't intend it as such, except as a post hoc way of trying to win an exchange of views with you! You should be a politician (you could try to trump Trump!)
Mike said: >Research funding SHOULD and MUST pay the costs of making the findings available<
Why? Available to whom? Why up front? Why not by reader pays? Why make a mountain of stuff available to everyone in the whole world when only a few hundred people at most might have any reason or interest in reading it? It just doesn't make any sense!
Stephen
--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 15/1/16, Michael A. Ivie <mivie at montana.edu> wrote:
Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Paywall our taxonomic tidbit
To: "Stephen Thorpe" <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>, "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>, "Daphne G. Fautin" <fautin at ku.edu>
Received: Friday, 15 January, 2016, 2:36 PM
I don't really think that was
sarcasm, you just said that after the fact
to cover up after it was explained to you.
OK, you just don't get it, publication access to and wide
dissemination
of data IS PART OF RESEARCH. It is NOT some separate
thing. Research
Funding SHOULD and MUST pay the costs of making the findings
available.
Mike
On 1/14/2016 6:21 PM, Stephen Thorpe wrote:
> Mike,
>
>> There is nothing novel at all about your suggestion
(you really need to get out more), it is one of the common
models, in fact the one that started this thread -- it's
called reader pays<
> Sorry if my sarcasm is over your head! You said:
>
>> Publishing is not free, the publisher has costs,
and someone has to pay those costs. Why would people think
research costs money but publishing does not?<
> I was pointing out that the common model ("reader
pays") easily solves and answers this bizarre question that
you posed. The answer was so blindingly obvious that I
simply had to introduce it (sarcastically) with "Here's a
novel idea ..." So, yes, absolutely, there is nothing new
about it, I agree 100% (mainly because it was my point, not
yours!)
>
> As for reprints, as you describe the situation (and I
don't know how true that is), reprints are effectively a
pre-electronic form of open access. So, all that argument
shows is that grant money has been wasted on open access for
a long time already. At any rate, the pros and cons of open
access depend, in the end, on the total (global) amount of
grant money that would be spent, compared to what would be
spent under reader pays. I don't think anybody knows how
that is likely to pan out. We don't know what all the
publishers are going to set as open access fees, and we
don't know to what extent authors (funded by public money)
might choose the more expensive publishers over the cheaper
ones. Publishers who can claim to be "prestigious" will no
doubt set fees higher. I'm just warning that there is a big
risk here of a lot of public money intended for research
disappearing into the pockets of publishers and employing
institutions.
>
> Stephen
> --------------------------------------------
> On Fri, 15/1/16, Michael A. Ivie <mivie at montana.edu>
wrote:
>
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Paywall our
taxonomic tidbit
> To: "Stephen Thorpe" <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>,
"taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
<taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>,
"Daphne G. Fautin" <fautin at ku.edu>
> Received: Friday, 15 January, 2016,
2:00 PM
>
> Stephen,
>
> There is nothing novel at all about
your suggestion (you
> really need to
> get out more), it is one of the common
models, in fact the
> one that
> started this thread -- it's called
reader pays.
> Zootaxa offers the
> author both the reader pays and the
writer pays models to
> choose from.
> It is the model that ran newspapers
and magazines for
> centuries, nothing
> new about it at all.
>
> But, it is your statement "Open access
is good news for
> publishers and
> good news for institutions who claim
overheads on grants
> gained by
> employees, but bad news for the
public" that is most
> outrageous. We
> used to pay for, receive and send out
paper reprints.
> These cost money,
> paid for by grants usually, and were a
way of disseminating
> research.
> Did anyone ever sell their reprints to
requesters? I
> never heard of
> such a thing. When I was on the
Board at the
> Entomological Society of
> America, we priced open access to be
the same as the average
> paper
> reprint charge for 100 copies, the
mode number
> ordered. The funds
> generated by the publisher (ESA) was
the same either way,
> although costs
> were slightly lower for open access
than for paper.
> So, there goes your
> first rhubarb. Next, how in the
world is this good for
> institutions?
> It is good for independent researchers
and those at
> institutions who
> don't get the journal, but has no
impact on the
> institution. Claiming
> overhead has nothing to do with this,
other than library
> support is one
> of the costs figured into IDC
rates. Still, open
> access has no impact
> on that. Last, the public
funding of science is a
> proven societal
> benefit. Not getting the data
out would stop it for
> being a societal
> benefit. Your sentence is simply
nonsense, in the classic
> meaning of the
> word.
>
> Mike
>
>
> On 1/14/2016 5:46 PM, Stephen Thorpe
wrote:
> > Daphne,
> > Not sure exactly what you mean,
but when I said "Here's
> a novel idea ..." that was sarcasm!
> > Stephen
> >
> >
--------------------------------------------
> > On Fri, 15/1/16, Fautin, Daphne
G. <fautin at ku.edu>
> wrote:
> >
> > Subject: Re:
[Taxacom] Paywall our
> taxonomic tidbit
> > To: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
> <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>,
> "Michael A. Ivie" <mivie at montana.edu>,
> "Stephen Thorpe" <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
> > Received:
Friday, 15 January, 2016,
> 1:40 PM
> >
> > Dear Stephen,
> >
> > You are
describing how it
> > currently works,
right?
> >
> >
> > Daphne G.
Fautin
> > Professor
> > Emerita,
University of Kansas
> >
> > skype:
daphne.fautin
> >
> > database of sea
anemones
> > hercules.kgs.ku.edu/Hexacoral/Anemone2/index.cfm
> >
> > ________________________________________
> > From: Taxacom
<taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> > on behalf of
Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
> > Sent: Thursday,
January 14, 2016 6:22
> PM
> > To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu;
> > Michael A. Ivie
> > Subject: Re:
[Taxacom]
> > Paywall our
taxonomic tidbit
> >
> > Mike,
> >
> > >Publishing
is not free, the
> publisher has
> > costs, and
someone has to pay those
> costs. Why would people
> > think research
costs money but
> publishing does not?<
> >
> > Yes, indeed, and
the answer to
> > your question is
that they don't.
> Here's a novel
> > idea, Mike, how
about the reader pays
> to read the
> > publication, if
they want to read it.
> For publications of
> > limited
interest, the total cost of
> readers paying to read
> > is going to be
far less than the total
> cost of authors
> > paying open
access costs set by
> publishers at very
> > "optimistic"
predictions of likely
> readership. So,
> > the ones
important to the particular
> research can read it,
> > either by
getting it free from an
> author/colleague, or by
> > paying to read
it. Let me put it as
> clearly as I can:
> >
> > Suppose that n
people want to
> > read a given
publication. Suppose that
> they each must pay
> > $100 (from
public money) to the
> publisher in order to read
> > it. It is quite
possible that 100n is
> significantly less
> > than $20/page
for open access, given
> that no more than n
> > people want to
read it. Multiply all
> that by the vast number
> > of limited
interest taxonomic articles
> that get published
> > every year, and
the difference in cost
> gets even greater.
> >
> > Open access is
good news for
> > publishers and
good news for
> institutions who claim
> > overheads on
grants gained by
> employees, but bad news for
> > the public. For
the public, it is
> analogous to helping the
> > proverbial old
lady cross the street
> who doesn't want to
> > go! Look we have
paid the publishers
> (with your money) so
> > you can read it
for free! Great, but I
> didn't want to
> > read it!
> >
> > Stephen
> >
> > --------------------------------------------
> > On Fri, 15/1/16,
Michael A. Ivie
> <mivie at montana.edu>
> > wrote:
> >
> > Subject: Re:
> > [Taxacom]
Paywall our taxonomic
> tidbit
> > To:
> > taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > Received: Friday, 15
January, 2016, 12:44
> > PM
> >
> > Com'on, Stephen,
> >
> > Publication costs
are
> > allowed
> > in every grant I
have ever
> > gotten,
> > reviewed
> > or
> > awarded.
It would be simply
> stupid for an agency to
> > fund
> > research but not
> > dissemination of
the
> > findings. It does
not
> > matter how
> > many
> > people
> > want to read it
as long as the ones
> important to the
> >
> > particular research
can read
> > it. This
is
> > very simple stuff,
very
> > odd
> > you don't
> >
> > understand
> this. These costs are
a minor
> > percentage of a
> > grant, maybe
> > $300 in a
> > $25,000 grant.
> >
> > Publishing
> >
> > is not free, the
publisher has costs,
> and someone has to
> > pay
> >
> > those costs. Why
would
> > people think
> > research costs money
but
> > publishing
> > does
> > not?
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > On 1/14/2016 4:24
PM, Stephen
> >
> > Thorpe wrote:
> > > Cut the ad
hominem
> > rhetoric Frank. I
don't see evil
> > everywhere. But
I can
> > do the maths and
see
> > that $20/page
multiplied by many
> >
> > thousands/year
of taxonomic papers of
> limited interest
> > amounts to a
significant amount of public
> > money spent on
> > making stuff
available to
> > read when hardly
anyone wants to
> > read it.
> > It is also an
incentive for some
> authors to pad out
> > their papers to be
as long winded as
> > possible.
> > >
> > >
> > Stephen
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------
> > > On Fri,
15/1/16, Frank T. Krell
> <Frank.Krell at dmns.org>
> > wrote:
> > >
> >
> > > Subject:
RE:
> [Taxacom]
> > Paywall
> > our taxonomic
tidbit
> >
> To:
> > "Stephen
> > Thorpe" <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>,
> > "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
> > <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>,
> > "Peter Uetz" <peter at uetz.us>
> >
> Received: Friday, 15
> January,
> > 2016, 11:51 AM
> > >
> >
> Disseminating
> results is
> >
> an essential part of
> the
> > scientific endeavor.
If public
> >
> money is intended
> for
> > research, this
includes making the
> >
> results known.
> >
> > >
> >
> You see evil
> >
> problems
> everywhere,
> > don't you, Stephen.
Even in a
> >
> $20/page open
> access
> > charge.
> > >
> >
> Frank
> > >
> > >
> >
> Dr Frank
> > T. Krell
> >
> Curator of
> >
> Entomology
> >
> > > Commissioner,
> > International
> >
> Commission
> > on
> > Zoological
Nomenclature
> >
> Chair,
> >
> ICZN ZooBank
> Committee
> >
> Department of
> Zoology
> > >
> >
> Denver
> > Museum of Nature
&
> > Science
> >
> 2001 Colorado
> >
> > Boulevard
> >
> Denver, CO
> > 80205-5798 USA
> >
> Frank.Krell at dmns.org
> > >
> >
> Phone:
> > (+1) (303)
370-8244
> >
> Fax: (+1)
> > (303) 331-6492
> >
> http://www.dmns.org/science/museum-scientists/frank-krell
> >
> lab page: http://www.dmns.org/krell-lab
> > >
> >
> > > -----Original
> Message-----
> >
> > > From:
Taxacom
> [mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu]
> >
> On Behalf Of
> Stephen
> > Thorpe
> >
> Sent:
> > Thursday,
> >
> January 14, 2016
> 3:02
> > PM
> >
> To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu;
> >
> Peter Uetz <peter at uetz.us>
> >
> Subject: Re:
> [Taxacom]
> > Paywall our
taxonomic
> >
> > > tidbit
> > >
> >
> Peter Uetz said:
> >
> > > Just
make your
> papers
> > available
> > to everybody,
not just the
> >
> few
> > lucky ones
> > >
> >
> > > Not
sure if
> >
> he was
> > being sarcastic?
I
> > hope so. It amounts
to
> > "just
> >
> make your papers
> > available to
> > everybody (whether
they
> > want
> >
> to read it or not),
> not
> > just
> > the few who actually
want to
> >
> read it (and pay for
> it with
> > public money
intended for
> >
> > > research!)"
> > >
> >
> Stephen
> >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > > --------------------------------------------
> >
> On Fri, 15/1/16,
> Peter Uetz
> > <peter at uetz.us>
> >
> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > Subject:
> > Re:
> >
> [Taxacom]
> >
> > Paywall our
taxonomic tidbit
> > >
> > To:
> >
> taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > >
Received: Friday, 15
> > January, 2016,
> > 7:20 AM
> >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > >
Yes! —
> >
> > > Zootaxa
is
> probably the best
> > deal
> > you can get.
> > > I
paid for
> > an
> > open access paper in
Zootaxa out
> >
> of my own
> pocket, and this
> > was a single author
paper.
> >
> > >
> > >
For teams, some
> > of which may
> >
> have grant money
> > available,
> > it is a no
brainer.
> > >
Just make
> >
> > your papers
available to everybody,
> >
> > > not
just
> the few lucky
> > ones.
> > >
Especially
> >
> if you believe that
> nothing
> > in biology
makes sense except
> >
> in the light of
> taxonomy,
> > sorry..., evolution
> >
> > >
:)
> > >
> > >
> >
> > >
>
> >
> > ------------------------------
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
> > Message: 9
> > >
> Date:
> > Thu, 14 Jan 2016
13:58:22
> > +1300
> >
> > From:
> >
> > "Geoff Read"
<gread at actrix.gen.nz>
> >
> > To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> >
> > Subject:
> [Taxacom]
> > Paywall our
taxonomic tidbit >
> >
> Message-ID:
> >
> > >
>
> <88e32d0d97f3055d3f25280814fd767f.squirrel at my.actrix.co.nz>
> > >
> Content-Type:
> >
> > text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
> > > > Am
I
> >
> > > unreasonable
in
> expecting
> > minor
> > contributions
to Zootaxa
> >
> to
> > be >
affordable for
> > authors as open
> > access as a
> >
> convenience
> for
> > their
> > readers?
> >
> > >
> For
> >
> > > instance
that's
> USD 20
> > for
> > each author in
today's
> >
> worst
> > 2 page case!
> > >
>
> > Hopefully they
earn
> >
> (or did) much
> > more that per
> > hour.
> >
> > >
>
> > >
> > > http://www.mapress.com/j/zt/article/view/zootaxa.4066.2.5
> > >
>
> >
> > >
>
> > Happens quite
> >
> frequently -
> > what
> > are these
contributors thinking?
> Should
> >
> > > we
>
> perhaps start a
> > fund to
> > help them out?
> > >
>
> > >
> --
> >
> > >
> >
> > Geoffrey B.
> > Read,
> > Ph.D.
> >
> > >
>
> >
> > > Wellington,
NEW
> ZEALAND
> >
> > >
> gread at actrix.gen.nz
> > >
>
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
Peter Uetz, PhD
> > >
Associate
> >
> > > Professor
> >
> > >
Center for the Study
> of
> >
> > > Biological
> Complexity
> > Virginia
> > Commonwealth
University
> > >
> > 1015 Floyd Ave
> >
> > >
PO Box
> >
> > > 842030
> > >
> > Richmond, VA
23284
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > Ph: 804-827-4573
> > >
> > > http://csbc.vcu.edu/people/
> > > http://www.vcu.edu/csbc/uetz/uetz2.html
> > >
> > >
> >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > >
Taxacom Mailing List
> > > Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > >
The Taxacom Archive
> back
> > to 1992 may
> > be
> >
> > > searched
at: http://taxacom.markmail.org
> > >
> > >
> > Celebrating 29 years
of
> >
> > > Taxacom
in
> 2016.
> >
> > > _______________________________________________
> >
> Taxacom Mailing
> List
> >
> Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> >
> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> >
> The Taxacom Archive
> back to
> > 1992 may be
> >
> > > searched
at:
> > http://taxacom.markmail.org
> > >
> >
> > > Celebrating
29
> years of
> >
> > > Taxacom
in
> 2016.
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > > Taxacom Mailing
List
> >
> > >
> > Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > > The Taxacom
Archive back to 1992 may
> > be
> > searched at: http://taxacom.markmail.org
> > >
> > > Celebrating 29
> > years
> > of Taxacom in 2016.
> >
> > --
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> >
> > Michael A. Ivie,
Ph.D.,
> > F.R.E.S.
> >
> > US
> > Post Office
> > Address:
> >
> > Montana
Entomology Collection
> > Marsh Labs,
> > Room 50
> > 1911 West
> > Lincoln
> > Street
> > Montana State
University
> > Bozeman, MT 59717
> > USA
> >
> > UPS, FedEx, DHL
Address:
> > Montana Entomology
Collection
> >
> > Marsh Labs, Room
50
> > 1911 West
> > Lincoln Street
> > Montana State
> > University
> > Bozeman, MT 59718
> > USA
> >
> >
> > (406)
> > 994-4610 (voice)
> > (406) 994-6029
(FAX)
> > mivie at montana.edu
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Taxacom Mailing
List
> > Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > The Taxacom Archive
back to 1992 may be
> > searched at: http://taxacom.markmail.org
> >
> > Celebrating 29 years
of
> > Taxacom in 2016.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Taxacom Mailing
List
> > Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > The Taxacom
Archive back to 1992 may
> be
> > searched at: http://taxacom.markmail.org
> >
> > Celebrating 29
years of
> > Taxacom in
2016.
> >
> > .
> >
>
> --
> __________________________________________________
>
> Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
>
> US Post Office Address:
> Montana Entomology Collection
> Marsh Labs, Room 50
> 1911 West Lincoln Street
> Montana State University
> Bozeman, MT 59717
> USA
>
> UPS, FedEx, DHL Address:
> Montana Entomology Collection
> Marsh Labs, Room 50
> 1911 West Lincoln Street
> Montana State University
> Bozeman, MT 59718
> USA
>
>
> (406) 994-4610 (voice)
> (406) 994-6029 (FAX)
> mivie at montana.edu
>
>
> .
>
--
__________________________________________________
Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
US Post Office Address:
Montana Entomology Collection
Marsh Labs, Room 50
1911 West Lincoln Street
Montana State University
Bozeman, MT 59717
USA
UPS, FedEx, DHL Address:
Montana Entomology Collection
Marsh Labs, Room 50
1911 West Lincoln Street
Montana State University
Bozeman, MT 59718
USA
(406) 994-4610 (voice)
(406) 994-6029 (FAX)
mivie at montana.edu
More information about the Taxacom
mailing list