[Taxacom] Paywall our taxonomic tidbit
Michael A. Ivie
mivie at montana.edu
Thu Jan 14 19:36:28 CST 2016
I don't really think that was sarcasm, you just said that after the fact
to cover up after it was explained to you.
OK, you just don't get it, publication access to and wide dissemination
of data IS PART OF RESEARCH. It is NOT some separate thing. Research
Funding SHOULD and MUST pay the costs of making the findings available.
Mike
On 1/14/2016 6:21 PM, Stephen Thorpe wrote:
> Mike,
>
>> There is nothing novel at all about your suggestion (you really need to get out more), it is one of the common models, in fact the one that started this thread -- it's called reader pays<
> Sorry if my sarcasm is over your head! You said:
>
>> Publishing is not free, the publisher has costs, and someone has to pay those costs. Why would people think research costs money but publishing does not?<
> I was pointing out that the common model ("reader pays") easily solves and answers this bizarre question that you posed. The answer was so blindingly obvious that I simply had to introduce it (sarcastically) with "Here's a novel idea ..." So, yes, absolutely, there is nothing new about it, I agree 100% (mainly because it was my point, not yours!)
>
> As for reprints, as you describe the situation (and I don't know how true that is), reprints are effectively a pre-electronic form of open access. So, all that argument shows is that grant money has been wasted on open access for a long time already. At any rate, the pros and cons of open access depend, in the end, on the total (global) amount of grant money that would be spent, compared to what would be spent under reader pays. I don't think anybody knows how that is likely to pan out. We don't know what all the publishers are going to set as open access fees, and we don't know to what extent authors (funded by public money) might choose the more expensive publishers over the cheaper ones. Publishers who can claim to be "prestigious" will no doubt set fees higher. I'm just warning that there is a big risk here of a lot of public money intended for research disappearing into the pockets of publishers and employing institutions.
>
> Stephen
> --------------------------------------------
> On Fri, 15/1/16, Michael A. Ivie <mivie at montana.edu> wrote:
>
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Paywall our taxonomic tidbit
> To: "Stephen Thorpe" <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>, "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu" <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>, "Daphne G. Fautin" <fautin at ku.edu>
> Received: Friday, 15 January, 2016, 2:00 PM
>
> Stephen,
>
> There is nothing novel at all about your suggestion (you
> really need to
> get out more), it is one of the common models, in fact the
> one that
> started this thread -- it's called reader pays.
> Zootaxa offers the
> author both the reader pays and the writer pays models to
> choose from.
> It is the model that ran newspapers and magazines for
> centuries, nothing
> new about it at all.
>
> But, it is your statement "Open access is good news for
> publishers and
> good news for institutions who claim overheads on grants
> gained by
> employees, but bad news for the public" that is most
> outrageous. We
> used to pay for, receive and send out paper reprints.
> These cost money,
> paid for by grants usually, and were a way of disseminating
> research.
> Did anyone ever sell their reprints to requesters? I
> never heard of
> such a thing. When I was on the Board at the
> Entomological Society of
> America, we priced open access to be the same as the average
> paper
> reprint charge for 100 copies, the mode number
> ordered. The funds
> generated by the publisher (ESA) was the same either way,
> although costs
> were slightly lower for open access than for paper.
> So, there goes your
> first rhubarb. Next, how in the world is this good for
> institutions?
> It is good for independent researchers and those at
> institutions who
> don't get the journal, but has no impact on the
> institution. Claiming
> overhead has nothing to do with this, other than library
> support is one
> of the costs figured into IDC rates. Still, open
> access has no impact
> on that. Last, the public funding of science is a
> proven societal
> benefit. Not getting the data out would stop it for
> being a societal
> benefit. Your sentence is simply nonsense, in the classic
> meaning of the
> word.
>
> Mike
>
>
> On 1/14/2016 5:46 PM, Stephen Thorpe wrote:
> > Daphne,
> > Not sure exactly what you mean, but when I said "Here's
> a novel idea ..." that was sarcasm!
> > Stephen
> >
> > --------------------------------------------
> > On Fri, 15/1/16, Fautin, Daphne G. <fautin at ku.edu>
> wrote:
> >
> > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Paywall our
> taxonomic tidbit
> > To: "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
> <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>,
> "Michael A. Ivie" <mivie at montana.edu>,
> "Stephen Thorpe" <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
> > Received: Friday, 15 January, 2016,
> 1:40 PM
> >
> > Dear Stephen,
> >
> > You are describing how it
> > currently works, right?
> >
> >
> > Daphne G. Fautin
> > Professor
> > Emerita, University of Kansas
> >
> > skype: daphne.fautin
> >
> > database of sea anemones
> > hercules.kgs.ku.edu/Hexacoral/Anemone2/index.cfm
> >
> > ________________________________________
> > From: Taxacom <taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>
> > on behalf of Stephen Thorpe <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>
> > Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2016 6:22
> PM
> > To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu;
> > Michael A. Ivie
> > Subject: Re: [Taxacom]
> > Paywall our taxonomic tidbit
> >
> > Mike,
> >
> > >Publishing is not free, the
> publisher has
> > costs, and someone has to pay those
> costs. Why would people
> > think research costs money but
> publishing does not?<
> >
> > Yes, indeed, and the answer to
> > your question is that they don't.
> Here's a novel
> > idea, Mike, how about the reader pays
> to read the
> > publication, if they want to read it.
> For publications of
> > limited interest, the total cost of
> readers paying to read
> > is going to be far less than the total
> cost of authors
> > paying open access costs set by
> publishers at very
> > "optimistic" predictions of likely
> readership. So,
> > the ones important to the particular
> research can read it,
> > either by getting it free from an
> author/colleague, or by
> > paying to read it. Let me put it as
> clearly as I can:
> >
> > Suppose that n people want to
> > read a given publication. Suppose that
> they each must pay
> > $100 (from public money) to the
> publisher in order to read
> > it. It is quite possible that 100n is
> significantly less
> > than $20/page for open access, given
> that no more than n
> > people want to read it. Multiply all
> that by the vast number
> > of limited interest taxonomic articles
> that get published
> > every year, and the difference in cost
> gets even greater.
> >
> > Open access is good news for
> > publishers and good news for
> institutions who claim
> > overheads on grants gained by
> employees, but bad news for
> > the public. For the public, it is
> analogous to helping the
> > proverbial old lady cross the street
> who doesn't want to
> > go! Look we have paid the publishers
> (with your money) so
> > you can read it for free! Great, but I
> didn't want to
> > read it!
> >
> > Stephen
> >
> > --------------------------------------------
> > On Fri, 15/1/16, Michael A. Ivie
> <mivie at montana.edu>
> > wrote:
> >
> > Subject: Re:
> > [Taxacom] Paywall our taxonomic
> tidbit
> > To:
> > taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > Received: Friday, 15 January, 2016, 12:44
> > PM
> >
> > Com'on, Stephen,
> >
> > Publication costs are
> > allowed
> > in every grant I have ever
> > gotten,
> > reviewed
> > or
> > awarded. It would be simply
> stupid for an agency to
> > fund
> > research but not
> > dissemination of the
> > findings. It does not
> > matter how
> > many
> > people
> > want to read it as long as the ones
> important to the
> >
> > particular research can read
> > it. This is
> > very simple stuff, very
> > odd
> > you don't
> >
> > understand
> this. These costs are a minor
> > percentage of a
> > grant, maybe
> > $300 in a
> > $25,000 grant.
> >
> > Publishing
> >
> > is not free, the publisher has costs,
> and someone has to
> > pay
> >
> > those costs. Why would
> > people think
> > research costs money but
> > publishing
> > does
> > not?
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > On 1/14/2016 4:24 PM, Stephen
> >
> > Thorpe wrote:
> > > Cut the ad hominem
> > rhetoric Frank. I don't see evil
> > everywhere. But I can
> > do the maths and see
> > that $20/page multiplied by many
> >
> > thousands/year of taxonomic papers of
> limited interest
> > amounts to a significant amount of public
> > money spent on
> > making stuff available to
> > read when hardly anyone wants to
> > read it.
> > It is also an incentive for some
> authors to pad out
> > their papers to be as long winded as
> > possible.
> > >
> > >
> > Stephen
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------
> > > On Fri, 15/1/16, Frank T. Krell
> <Frank.Krell at dmns.org>
> > wrote:
> > >
> >
> > > Subject: RE:
> [Taxacom]
> > Paywall
> > our taxonomic tidbit
> > > To:
> > "Stephen
> > Thorpe" <stephen_thorpe at yahoo.co.nz>,
> > "taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu"
> > <taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu>,
> > "Peter Uetz" <peter at uetz.us>
> > > Received: Friday, 15
> January,
> > 2016, 11:51 AM
> > >
> > > Disseminating
> results is
> > > an essential part of
> the
> > scientific endeavor. If public
> > > money is intended
> for
> > research, this includes making the
> > > results known.
> >
> > >
> > > You see evil
> > > problems
> everywhere,
> > don't you, Stephen. Even in a
> > > $20/page open
> access
> > charge.
> > >
> > > Frank
> > >
> > >
> > > Dr Frank
> > T. Krell
> > > Curator of
> > > Entomology
> >
> > > Commissioner,
> > International
> > > Commission
> > on
> > Zoological Nomenclature
> > > Chair,
> > > ICZN ZooBank
> Committee
> > > Department of
> Zoology
> > >
> > > Denver
> > Museum of Nature &
> > Science
> > > 2001 Colorado
> >
> > Boulevard
> > > Denver, CO
> > 80205-5798 USA
> > > Frank.Krell at dmns.org
> > >
> > > Phone:
> > (+1) (303) 370-8244
> > > Fax: (+1)
> > (303) 331-6492
> > > http://www.dmns.org/science/museum-scientists/frank-krell
> > > lab page: http://www.dmns.org/krell-lab
> > >
> >
> > > -----Original
> Message-----
> >
> > > From: Taxacom
> [mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu]
> > > On Behalf Of
> Stephen
> > Thorpe
> > > Sent:
> > Thursday,
> > > January 14, 2016
> 3:02
> > PM
> > > To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu;
> > > Peter Uetz <peter at uetz.us>
> > > Subject: Re:
> [Taxacom]
> > Paywall our taxonomic
> >
> > > tidbit
> > >
> > > Peter Uetz said:
> >
> > > Just make your
> papers
> > available
> > to everybody, not just the
> > > few
> > lucky ones
> > >
> >
> > > Not sure if
> > > he was
> > being sarcastic? I
> > hope so. It amounts to
> > "just
> > > make your papers
> > available to
> > everybody (whether they
> > want
> > > to read it or not),
> not
> > just
> > the few who actually want to
> > > read it (and pay for
> it with
> > public money intended for
> >
> > > research!)"
> > >
> > > Stephen
> >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > > --------------------------------------------
> > > On Fri, 15/1/16,
> Peter Uetz
> > <peter at uetz.us>
> > > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > Subject:
> > Re:
> > > [Taxacom]
> >
> > Paywall our taxonomic tidbit
> > >
> > To:
> > > taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > > Received: Friday, 15
> > January, 2016,
> > 7:20 AM
> >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > > Yes! —
> >
> > > Zootaxa is
> probably the best
> > deal
> > you can get.
> > > I paid for
> > an
> > open access paper in Zootaxa out
> > > of my own
> pocket, and this
> > was a single author paper.
> >
> > >
> > > For teams, some
> > of which may
> > > have grant money
> > available,
> > it is a no brainer.
> > > Just make
> >
> > your papers available to everybody,
> >
> > > not just
> the few lucky
> > ones.
> > > Especially
> > > if you believe that
> nothing
> > in biology makes sense except
> > > in the light of
> taxonomy,
> > sorry..., evolution
> >
> > > :)
> > >
> > >
> >
> > > >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > Message: 9
> > > > Date:
> > Thu, 14 Jan 2016 13:58:22
> > +1300
> > > > From:
> >
> > "Geoff Read" <gread at actrix.gen.nz>
> > > > To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > > > Subject:
> [Taxacom]
> > Paywall our taxonomic tidbit >
> > > Message-ID:
> >
> > > >
> <88e32d0d97f3055d3f25280814fd767f.squirrel at my.actrix.co.nz>
> > > > Content-Type:
> >
> > text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
> > > > Am I
> >
> > > unreasonable in
> expecting
> > minor
> > contributions to Zootaxa
> > > to
> > be > affordable for
> > authors as open
> > access as a
> > > convenience
> for
> > their
> > readers?
> >
> > > > For
> >
> > > instance that's
> USD 20
> > for
> > each author in today's
> > > worst
> > 2 page case!
> > > >
> > Hopefully they earn
> > > (or did) much
> > more that per
> > hour.
> >
> > > >
> > >
> > > http://www.mapress.com/j/zt/article/view/zootaxa.4066.2.5
> > > >
> >
> > > >
> > Happens quite
> > > frequently -
> > what
> > are these contributors thinking?
> Should
> >
> > > we >
> perhaps start a
> > fund to
> > help them out?
> > > >
> > > > --
> >
> > >
> > > > Geoffrey B.
> > Read,
> > Ph.D.
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > Wellington, NEW
> ZEALAND
> >
> > > > gread at actrix.gen.nz
> > > >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > Peter Uetz, PhD
> > > Associate
> >
> > > Professor
> >
> > > Center for the Study
> of
> >
> > > Biological
> Complexity
> > Virginia
> > Commonwealth University
> > >
> > 1015 Floyd Ave
> >
> > > PO Box
> >
> > > 842030
> > >
> > Richmond, VA 23284
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > Ph: 804-827-4573
> > >
> > > http://csbc.vcu.edu/people/
> > > http://www.vcu.edu/csbc/uetz/uetz2.html
> > >
> > >
> >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Taxacom Mailing List
> > > Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > > The Taxacom Archive
> back
> > to 1992 may
> > be
> >
> > > searched at: http://taxacom.markmail.org
> > >
> > >
> > Celebrating 29 years of
> >
> > > Taxacom in
> 2016.
> >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Taxacom Mailing
> List
> > > Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > > The Taxacom Archive
> back to
> > 1992 may be
> >
> > > searched at:
> > http://taxacom.markmail.org
> > >
> >
> > > Celebrating 29
> years of
> >
> > > Taxacom in
> 2016.
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > > Taxacom Mailing List
> >
> > >
> > Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > > The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may
> > be
> > searched at: http://taxacom.markmail.org
> > >
> > > Celebrating 29
> > years
> > of Taxacom in 2016.
> >
> > --
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> >
> > Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D.,
> > F.R.E.S.
> >
> > US
> > Post Office
> > Address:
> >
> > Montana Entomology Collection
> > Marsh Labs,
> > Room 50
> > 1911 West
> > Lincoln
> > Street
> > Montana State University
> > Bozeman, MT 59717
> > USA
> >
> > UPS, FedEx, DHL Address:
> > Montana Entomology Collection
> >
> > Marsh Labs, Room 50
> > 1911 West
> > Lincoln Street
> > Montana State
> > University
> > Bozeman, MT 59718
> > USA
> >
> >
> > (406)
> > 994-4610 (voice)
> > (406) 994-6029 (FAX)
> > mivie at montana.edu
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Taxacom Mailing List
> > Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may be
> > searched at: http://taxacom.markmail.org
> >
> > Celebrating 29 years of
> > Taxacom in 2016.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Taxacom Mailing List
> > Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/taxacom
> > The Taxacom Archive back to 1992 may
> be
> > searched at: http://taxacom.markmail.org
> >
> > Celebrating 29 years of
> > Taxacom in 2016.
> >
> > .
> >
>
> --
> __________________________________________________
>
> Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
>
> US Post Office Address:
> Montana Entomology Collection
> Marsh Labs, Room 50
> 1911 West Lincoln Street
> Montana State University
> Bozeman, MT 59717
> USA
>
> UPS, FedEx, DHL Address:
> Montana Entomology Collection
> Marsh Labs, Room 50
> 1911 West Lincoln Street
> Montana State University
> Bozeman, MT 59718
> USA
>
>
> (406) 994-4610 (voice)
> (406) 994-6029 (FAX)
> mivie at montana.edu
>
>
> .
>
--
__________________________________________________
Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
US Post Office Address:
Montana Entomology Collection
Marsh Labs, Room 50
1911 West Lincoln Street
Montana State University
Bozeman, MT 59717
USA
UPS, FedEx, DHL Address:
Montana Entomology Collection
Marsh Labs, Room 50
1911 West Lincoln Street
Montana State University
Bozeman, MT 59718
USA
(406) 994-4610 (voice)
(406) 994-6029 (FAX)
mivie at montana.edu
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